The ten commandments Old covenant, and the law "done away" and "abolished" as paul said

[bugkiller]

Non answer. I asked for the supposed council that through out the ruling of the Jerusalem council. You didn't provide one. You appealed to a teaching of Jesus which came before the Jerusalem council. IF THAT overrules the council's decision, then what you are REALLY saying is NOT that the decision was subsequently overthrown but that the decision of the council itself was in error. Is that what you really want to say?

No you asked for specific words from Acts that aren't there to support your claim. So I provided a correct answer about the real issue which you reject.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

If you can't explain who the 'we' in Romans 7:6 is then how can you say that practicing the Law of Moses is Not for the non-Jew let alone For the Jew only?

Excellent question.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

The council left INTACT the requirement that Jewish believers follow the Law. The whole point of the decision was that it was making an exception for Gentiles, saying they did not need to do what Jews needed to do.

No that wasn't the issue nor the purpose of the council and therefore not addressed.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Christians didn't attend the synagogue for the purpose of being taught the 10 Cs.

bugkiller

According to James in Acts 15 - the Christians attended to hear Moses being preached. --- "scripture" .

That may be because Christians followed the teaching of Christ.

And Christ said this about Moses -

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68311812, member: 235244"]So then what is the specific point -- Christ makes here "in his own words"??

=========================

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Notice that it is identified as "Moses said" and as "The Word of God"

AND as the "Commandment of God"??[/QUOTE]
=========================================

Notice that "Moses said" is also called "The Commandment of God" by Christ and also "The Word of God".

So trashing the Bible was not part of the first century Christian agenda.

 

[BobRyan]

If you can't explain who the 'we' in Romans 7:6 is then how can you say that practicing the Law of Moses is Not for the non-Jew let alone For the Jew only?


You appear to believe that the ruling of the Council was a ruling that effected what the Jewish Christians did. It didn't.
So if you are trying to use it to state that the Jews still had to follow the Law of Moses because of this ruling, you are mistaken. They have nothing to do with each other.

In Romans 7 Paul says that the LAW defines sin for "US" and in Gal 3 and Romans 3 - Paul says that the "US" in that case is "the entire world".

The condemnation of the LAW is the reference for Romans 7:6.

And as for Romans 6 --

Who is the "WE" in Romans 6? The context for Romans 7.
Did this get answered - on the way to Romans 7???


1. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

 

[BobRyan]

The council left INTACT the requirement that Jewish believers follow the Law. The whole point of the decision was that it was making an exception for Gentiles, saying they did not need to do what Jews needed to do.

But they (gentiles) DID need to "love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 as also did the Jews need to do that.
They DID need to "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 - as also did the Jews need to do that.,
They DID need to "Not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 - as also did the Jews need to do that.
They DID need to "Honor your father and mother" Ex 20:12 - as also did the Jews need to do that.

None of which is mentioned for gentiles in Acts 15 - or Acts 21 - even though Gentiles needed to do all of that.

as I am sure all sides of this debate full agree.

 

[Meowzltov]

Keep reading. In the Epistles, we see God's people, comprised of both Jews and Gentiles, as the church, meeting and worshipping outside the temple and apart from the Mosaic Law.

You are mistaken. The epistles were written to Gentile churches, to the gentiles there, just as when my bishop writes to my parish, he never addresses the two jews as jews at my parish. It is curious that there is no epistle to the church at Jerusalem, where Torah keeping is at its height, where thousands of believing Jews are "zealous for Torah."

 

[Steeno7]

You are mistaken. The epistles were written to Gentile churches, to the gentiles there, just as when my bishop writes to my parish, he never addresses the two jews as jews at my parish. It is curious that there is no epistle to the church at Jerusalem, where Torah keeping is at its height, where thousands of believing Jews are "zealous for Torah."

Those epistles were written to Christian churches comprised of both Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians. It is you who are mistaken, tragically so.

 

[Steeno7]

But they (gentiles) DID need to "love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 as also did the Jews need to do that.
They DID need to "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 - as also did the Jews need to do that.,
They DID need to "Not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 - as also did the Jews need to do that.
They DID need to "Honor your father and mother" Ex 20:12 - as also did the Jews need to do that.

None of which is mentioned for gentiles in Acts 15 - or Acts 21 - even though Gentiles needed to do all of that.

as I am sure all sides of this debate full agree.

Nope. Jesus gave us a NEW commandment....guess you missed it.

 

[Hank77]

According to James in Acts 15 - the Christians attended to hear Moses being preached. --- "scripture" .

I understand that verse very differently.
James wrote a letter to the Gentile Christians, as was the customary practice of writing to the different churches at that time. It was sufficient for them, and the Jews in their congregation, to know that this is what was expected of them that had not been given the Law of Moses, as the generations of Israelites had.

The Jews in those congregations would not be confused or be left with no way of remembering or being instructed in the Law because they could hear the Law every Sabbath in the synagogue.

It was a win/win for both the Jews and the Gentiles that were in one congregation.

as I am sure all sides of this debate full agree.

I agree. Those things are clearly against the Law of Moses, and that law which James calls the Royal Law.

Jas 2:8 If, indeed, royal law ye complete, according to the Writing, `Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,' --ye do well;
Jas 2:9 and if ye accept persons, sin ye do work, being convicted by the law as transgressors;
Jas 2:10 for whoever the whole law shall keep, and shall stumble in one point , he hath become guilty of all;
Jas 2:11 for He who is saying, `Thou mayest not commit adultery,' said also, `Thou mayest do no murder;' and if thou shalt not commit adultery, and shalt commit murder, thou hast become a transgressor of law;
Jas 2:12 so speak ye and so do, as about by a law of liberty to be judged,
Jas 2:13 for the judgment without kindness is to him not having done kindness, and exult doth kindness over judgment.

 

[Hank77]

Nope. Jesus gave us a NEW commandment....guess you missed it.

???

 

[Meowzltov]

huh?

bugkiller

It's not a hard question. We've determined that we are to follow all the 10 but only some of the 613. The question is how do you know which of the 613? How do you know that you are to follow the commandment against gay sex, but don't need to follow the commandment against mixing wool and linen? What about lighting a fire on sabbath? Are we to follow that? How about not having sex with a menstruating woman? Are we to follow that?

 

[Meowzltov]

Were any Jews part of the church in Antioch? Where does the Bible say Jews are still required to keep the law? I read they are delivered from the law in Rom 7 and there is not Jew in Christ Jesus in Gal 3.

It would help if you quoted the verses you are referring to. There were of course some Jews in Antioch, but not many, just as there are 2 of us Jews in my own parish. The NT has believing Jews still keeping the Law simply by its silence. For example, Acts 15 and Acts 21 are perfect places for James to admonish Jews to stop keeping the Law but he does no such thing. Romans is written to Judaized Gentiles.

 

[Meowzltov]

Your argument from silence in Acts 15 isn't valid in light of other passages such as Rom 7:6. Why was Peter called for living like a Gentile, then severing himself when the delegation from Jerusalem arrived?

bugkiller

He misunderstood and believed that the delegation from James would have, as in days of old, required him to stop eating with Gentiles.

 

[Meowzltov]

I dunno. why aren't Christians still a regular part of the synagogue?

bugkiller

Beginning in the second century, after the bar Kochba rebellion and the end of the jerusalem church, Gentile christians began to view themselves as opposed to Judaism.

 

[Meowzltov]

Christians didn't attend the synagogue for the purpose of being taught the 10 Cs.

They did, and not only the ten, but all the commandments.

 

[Meowzltov]

No you asked for specific words from Acts that aren't there to support your claim. So I provided a correct answer about the real issue which you reject.

bugkiller

And Jesus' words are NOT from Acts, so as I said, Non-answer.

 

[Meowzltov]

No that wasn't the issue nor the purpose of the council and therefore not addressed.

Oh brother.

 

[Meowzltov]

But they (gentiles) DID need to "love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 as also did the Jews need to do that.
They DID need to "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 - as also did the Jews need to do that.,
They DID need to "Not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 - as also did the Jews need to do that.
They DID need to "Honor your father and mother" Ex 20:12 - as also did the Jews need to do that.

None of which is mentioned for gentiles in Acts 15 - or Acts 21 - even though Gentiles needed to do all of that.

as I am sure all sides of this debate full agree.

I believe that the Council instructed Gentiles in things they would not have already understood. For example, Gentiles should not steal, but they would have already understood that they should not steal, so there would have been no purpose in repeating this. On the other hand, they might have been confused about fornication or eating meat offered to idols, so this was clarified.

 

[BobRyan]

Or eating meat with blood in it - (Lev 17:10)