The ten commandments Old covenant, and the law "done away" and "abolished" as paul said

[Hank77]

The council left INTACT the requirement that Jewish believers follow the Law.

Please quote the scripture where the Council addressed that issue at all.

 

[Meowzltov]

Please quote the scripture where the Council addressed that issue at all.

Oh my goodness. The whole point I made was that they left it intact. That means all they had to do was NOTHING.

 

[Wordkeeper]

The council admitted that the law was a burden that even the Jews and their forefathers found too hard to bear. The final nail in the coffin was when Paul taught that asking for the law was exactly the same as Sarah asking Hagar to manufacture a son for Abraham: it was a presumptious act, trying to be the initiator of an event that God had already promised Abraham.

You are positing that the writers of Scripture taught a perpetuation of that wrong act.

 

[Meowzltov]

The council admitted that the law was a burden that even the Jews and their forefathers found too hard to bear. The final nail in the coffin was when Paul taught that asking for the law was exactly the same as Sarah asking Hagar to manufacture a son for Abraham: it was a presumptious act, trying to be the initiator of an event that God had already promised Abraham.

You are positing that the writers of Scripture taught a perpetuation of that wrong act.

Find me a specific verse or two in Acts 15 where it says Jewish believers are to no longer keep the Law as they had been doing. Just one verse where it shows that change.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Find me a specific verse or two in Acts 15 where it says Jewish believers are to no longer keep the Law as they had been doing. Just one verse where it shows that change.

Find me a verse teaching the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[BobRyan]

The council admitted that the law was a burden that even the Jews and their forefathers found too hard to bear. The final nail in the coffin was when Paul taught that asking for the law was exactly the same as Sarah asking Hagar to manufacture a son for Abraham: it was a presumptious act, trying to be the initiator of an event that God had already promised Abraham.

You are positing that the writers of Scripture taught a perpetuation of that wrong act.

The council argues that all Christians - Jews and Gentiles are hearing Moses read every Sabbath in the Synagogues.

In Acts 13, 17, 18 we see that very thing happening - BOTH Jews AND gentiles in the synagogues every Sabbath.

 

[BobRyan]

Find me a verse teaching the doctrine of the Trinity.

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

John 16
7 But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. 12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.

13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

Christ argues that the saints are to fully trust and follow and obey the Holy Spirit just as they trust and obey Christ.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Find me a specific verse or two in Acts 15 where it says Jewish believers are to no longer keep the Law as they had been doing. Just one verse where it shows that change.

That would have been a great place for it - because they could say "Not only do Gentiles not have to be circumcised but neither do Jews - were are done with those 39 books of scripture" - IF that had been their doctrine.

 

[Meowzltov]

Find me a verse teaching the doctrine of the Trinity.

not analogous
The council is a council, the equivilent of a court proceeding with verdicts. You have to make your case. If you can't , then you can't.

 

[Steeno7]

The council argues that all Christians - Jews and Gentiles are hearing Moses read every Sabbath in the Synagogues.

In Acts 13, 17, 18 we see that very thing happening - BOTH Jews AND gentiles in the synagogues every Sabbath.

Camp out in Acts and you'll miss the Christian life entirely. Keep reading. In the Epistles, God's people, comprised of both Jews and Gentiles, are the church, meeting and worshipping outside the temple and apart from the Mosaic Law.

 

[Meowzltov]

Camp out in Acts and you'll miss the Christian life entirely. Keep reading. In the Epistles, God's people, comprised of both Jews and Gentiles, are the church, meeting and worshipping outside the temple and apart from the Mosaic Law.

How does that contradict what Bob said about them meeting in the synagogues?

 

[BobRyan]

Camp out in Acts and you'll miss the Christian life entirely. Keep reading. In the Epistles, God's people, comprised of both Jews and Gentiles, are the church, meeting and worshipping outside the temple and apart from the Mosaic Law.

There is not one single mention in any of those letters of trashing the Ten Commandments - rather we have "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

And then of course there is 1John 5:1-4 - the ultimate statement on that point outside of Acts and the Gospels.

Worship "outside the temple" was what "every Jew" was doing that lived outside of Jerusalem.

Worship "without a synagogue" was what every Jew was doing if they did not have a quorum of ten men - the minimum for establishing a synagogue.

And in the few cases in the NT where Christians are expelled from the Synagogues it is BOTH gentiles AND Jews that leave with them.

 

[Steeno7]

There is not one single mention in any of those letters of trashing the Ten Commandments - rather we have "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

And then of course there is 1John 5:1-4 - the ultimate statement on that point outside of Acts and the Gospels.

Worship "outside the temple" was what "every Jew" was doing that lived outside of Jerusalem.

Worship "without a synagogue" was what every Jew was doing if they did not have a quorum of ten men - the minimum for establishing a synagogue.

And in the few cases in the NT where Christians are expelled from the Synagogues it is BOTH gentiles AND Jews that leave with them.

Your camping out in Acts is why 2000 years later you are still trying to mix the religion of Judaism with Christianity. It didn't work then and it doesn't work now.

 

[Steeno7]

How does that contradict what Bob said about them meeting in the synagogues?

They moved on, you should too.

 

[Meowzltov]

There is not one single mention in any of those letters of trashing the Ten Commandments - rather we have "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

That verse is an odd duck, as circumcision IS one of the commandments.

 

[Meowzltov]

Your camping out in Acts is why 2000 years later you are still trying to mix the religion of Judaism with Christianity. It didn't work then and it doesn't work now.

Are you wanting to kick Acts out of Scripture?

 

[Meowzltov]

They moved on, you should too.

No, Bob proved his point. You are both correct. Early believers met both places: synagogues for the teaching of the law, and homes for the breaking of the bread and teaching of the gospel.

 

[Wordkeeper]

The council argues that all Christians - Jews and Gentiles are hearing Moses read every Sabbath in the Synagogues.

In Acts 13, 17, 18 we see that very thing happening - BOTH Jews AND gentiles in the synagogues every Sabbath.

It's strange that sin is the central problem for all the saints, but they express no desire for relief. Abraham wants an heir, Isaac a wide and Jacob protection from Esau. God always emphasizes how they will be blessings to the world. God and the saints seem to talk past each other!

However, the first covenant that God makes with Israel is called Law. In agreements, contracts, covenants, treaties, the beneficiaries receive products or services in return for meeting the requirements of their side of the agreement. The benefit is normally the name of the agreement: this peace treaties, rent agreements, etc. You lay down your arms, you get peace. Youse pays your rent, youse gets a house on hire.

In the case of Sinai, the benefit is the protection of the law. The law is a guardian until Christ was sent. Those who believe God and keep the law, perfectly or imperfectly, are reckoned to be righteous. They don't question God, like Adam when he began to waver, began to sympathize with Satan, going along with his temptation of wondering, "Did God really say...?" Yup that gem is hidden there, the benefit of Sinai was protection. You believe God, say His law is good, you confess you are a sinner and you are justified. You don't believe me? Ask the publican in the Temple. Or you don't believe God, you say, "Did God really mean justice, mercy and love are good? Did He say "This is how you will be the solution to the decay in the world, tikkun olam, how you will fix it"? Actually, what He meant was, "Just show the world that you are Abraham's children, through circumcision, tithing, etc." The promise to Abraham was unconditional: his seeds would be the blessing the world required.

The problem with this construct of the Jews was:

1 The promise was to Abraham's Seed, singular.

2 Salvation in the covenant of law was by believing God, saying his law was good, by doing his law. Faith, high fidelity (hi-fi!) led to protection by the law. The doers of the law were found righteous, justified. Notice I said doers, not those meeting its righteous requirements, because no one was righteous, not even one.

3 Salvation wasn't possessing the law. Possessing the law was a stumbling block, because God put it there, because of the unbelief of Israel at Sinai. By asking for the law, Israel proved she was not a "son of the promise" but the "son of the bondswoman", a product of reliance on self and not reliance on God. like Sarah asking for a son through Hagar, even after being promised isaac. The Gentiles never asked for a law. Ironically, not possessing the law led to justification. What Israel did not receive, justification, the Gentiles received, because she, Israel sought a righteousness of her own, Hagar, not a righteousness that was by faith, Isaac.

See, the Gentiles were justified, because their consciences convicted them of their sin and they were broken and God lifted them up.

Israel was puffed up because she possessed the law, she was not convicted and remained unjustified. Possessing the law was a hindrance, a stumbling block!

Romans 2:13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Romans 9:30What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

33just as it is written,
“BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”

Even then, it was a lesser benefit, a lesser glory:



2 Corinthians 3:7But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. 11For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

Summary
The benefit of the old covenant of law was the protection of the law, obtained by believing God through His statement of his requirements at Sinai for Israel and believing their conscience for Gentiles. Yes if the Gentile met the requirements of the law, FAITH, BELIEF, would God not treat them as if they possessed the law and were under covenant? You betcha!

Romans 2:26So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

The benefit of the New Covenant was Christ. Believing Christ was sent by God to bring His people into the kingdom of God resulted in not the protection of the law, because the law was a dead husband, but in grace, being in God's good books, being allowed to be in His presence, through Christ. Remember, being under law resulted in death, inability to be on God's presence, because of the weakness of the flesh, resulting in sin. If you confessed the law was good, but that you were a sinner needing God to send a Redeemer, you would not be made alive, become a blessing to the world, but you would be found righteous, be justified. Pity the pharisee in the Temple missed that. Parable. Pity the rich young ruler missed it too. Not a parable. Really happened.


The benefit of the new covenant is grace, a greater glory.

Grace is being made alive, being able to be in Christ, because of being able to put to death the weaknesses of the flesh, resulting in sinlessness. There are several ways to approach the problem. I like to see grace as being able to be blessings to the world, by being the unblemished sacrifice. Possible by grace. Through being in Christ.

Romans 8:13But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live.


Not by being perfect. But by being in Christ. Through faith. Demonstrated by confession, agreeing with God, walking in the light, His revelation, agreeing Christ was THE Redeemer. Leading to being in God's good books, in His favor. Of course He also cleansed you of your confessed sins. But to keep you from being proud He'll leave a few intact, in place. Because His power is revealed through weakness.


However, if you try to keep the covenant by using the terms and conditions of the old covenant, Christ will be of no benefit to you. If you say the covenant of the law is good, but you are a sinner, and you need a Redeemer, you will live by the benefit of the old covenant, if you can call it living. To be really living you need to meet the requirements of the New Covenant. Walk in the light as God is in the light (let the Word expose your sin, confess, agree that Christ is the Redeemer) and you will be in God's good books AND the blood of the One He sent will CLEANSE you of your confessed sin. Not all. Most. He, as already mentioned, will keep a few in place. To manifest His presence in you. Just as He manifested his presence in Moses. In Christ. So that the people of God would believe, and follow you out of Egypt into the kingdom of God, into Christ.

 

[Steeno7]

Are you wanting to kick Acts out of Scripture?

Nope. Just keeping it as what it is...historical and transitional.

 

[Steeno7]

No, Bob proved his point. You are both correct. Early believers met both places: synagogues for the teaching of the law, and homes for the breaking of the bread and teaching of the gospel.

Nope. They simply were learning what it now meant to be new covenant Christians separate and distinct from the religion of Judaism.