Job, saint or sinner, hero or villain?

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

I apologize for correcting you but God never said Eliphaz lied. Job and his three friends were all in the same boat. Not a one of them had repented and put on God's righteousness, at least not until the last chapter where Job repented and exchanged his own robe of righteousness for God's mantle. This is what Job had said that the three friends had not yet said. That is what God was telling the three friends. They had not yet confessed or spoken the words of confession that Job had just done prior to God's statement.

It is a fact that in 1 Corinthians 3:19 Paul says, "For it is written, he taketh the wise in their own craftiness." The NIV footnote cites Job 5:13 as the reference. Those are the words of Eliphaz. Eliphaz states in paraphrase the first two beatitudes of Jesus as found in Matthew 5:3-4. The bible says "all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, for instruction righteousness."

I see a different interpretation to God's accusation in Job 42 vs 7 & 8. I shall prayerfully consider what you say, however it seems to me God is saying they did not speak the truth concerning him. Yes, I take all Scripture into consideration.

 

[thankfulttt]

I see a different interpretation to God's accusation in Job 42 vs 7 & 8. I shall prayerfully consider what you say, however it seems to me God is saying they did not speak the truth concerning him. Yes, I take all Scripture into consideration.

By posting 2 Timothy 3:16 I was trying to make the statement, that if the words of Eliphaz are stated to be scripture, how can he be a liar?

God restated the words of Elihu many times. It was Elihu who first said Job was without knowledge (Job 34:35/Job 35:16). It was Elihu who first said Job exalted himself above God (Job 32:2/Job 35:2). It was Elihu that first said Job was reproving God (Compare Job 34:12/Job 34:37 with Job 40:2). There are other instances as well, but the following instance is the one that I would like you to consider.

Elihu. "His wrath was kindled against the three friends, because they had found no answer, and yet condemned Job." (Job 32:3)

God. "My wrath is kindled against thee(Eliphaz), and thy two friends, for you have no spoken the thing which is right, like my servant Job." (Job 42:7)

Lets break it down

Compare "they had found no answer, and yet condemned Job".

with "for you have not spoken the thing which is right, like my servant Job."

Lets break it down some more, and compare

"they had found no answer."

"for you have not spoken the thing which is right."

Can you see how these two statements are saying the same thing? If the three friends had spoken what was right they would have told Job to dump his own righteousness and put on God's, but they were ignorant of this knowledge. They hadn't spoken that which is right.

"and yet condemned Job"

"like my servant Job"

The difference between the statement of Elihu and the statement of God can be found in the fact that when Elihu had spoken Job and not yet put on God's righteousness. When God spoke, Job had just put on God's righteousness, and that is the difference, the time frame.

 

[thankfulttt]

Does God need to be defended?

My answer would be that Job was striving with God and everybody seems to side with Job. They make Job their hero. God said "Woe to him that strives with his maker".

 

[brinny]

By posting 2 Timothy 3:16 I was trying to make the statement, that if the words of Eliphaz are stated to be scripture, how can he be a liar?

God restated the words of Elihu many times. It was Elihu who first said Job was without knowledge (Job 34:35/Job 35:16). It was Elihu who first said Job exalted himself above God (Job 32:2/Job 35:2). It was Elihu that first said Job was reproving God (Compare Job 34:12/Job 34:37 with Job 40:2). There are other instances as well, but the following instance is the one that I would like you to consider.

Elihu. "His wrath was kindled against the three friends, because they had found no answer, and yet condemned Job." (Job 32:3)

God. "My wrath is kindled against thee(Eliphaz), and thy two friends, for you have no spoken the thing which is right, like my servant Job." (Job 42:7)

Lets break it down

Compare "they had found no answer, and yet condemned Job".

with "for you have not spoken the thing which is right, like my servant Job."

Lets break it down some more, and compare

"they had found no answer."

"for you have not spoken the thing which is right."

Can you see how these two statements are saying the same thing? If the three friends had spoken what was right they would have told Job to dump his own righteousness and put on God's, but they were ignorant of this knowledge. They hadn't spoken that which is right.

"and yet condemned Job"

"like my servant Job"

The difference between the statement of Elihu and the statement of God can be found in the fact that when Elihu had spoken Job and not yet put on God's righteousness. When God spoke, Job had just put on God's righteousness, and that is the difference, the time frame.

Elihu was not speaking for God, nor being used of God, but used by the accuser (Satan). Elihu prolifically and blatantly lied about Job and in addition kicked Job, so to speak, when Job was at his absolute lowest and suffering inexplicably. This alone is very "telling" who Elihu was speaking on behalf of. And it wasn't God.

Throughout the book of Job, it is clear what kind of character and integrity Job lived out. Even his wife, who meant to condemn and insult him, told him to just stop being a man of integrity, and curse God, and die. She, without intending to, gave testimony that Job was a man of integrity. She also gave testimony of herself, that she was disgusted with Job for maintaining his integrity, even during his suffering, and had no regard for Job's God. She rejected both.

"Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die." ~Job 2;9

Job was a man of integrity. God Himself testifies of Job's character as well, at least twice. Elihu blatantly lied about Job. He surely wasn't speaking for God, but speaking for the accuser.

 

[thankfulttt]

Has anyone said God was unjust?

Job did. He said God would laugh at the trial of the innocent. Job said God had stuck his arrows into him without cause.

David went through the same trial as Job. God had stuck his arrows in David, but David did not strive with God, rather he confessed his sin. Read the 38th Psalm carefully and you will see the difference between David's trial, and Job's.

 

[brinny]

My answer would be that Job was striving with God and everybody seems to side with Job. They make Job their hero. God said "Woe to him that strives with his maker".

Job was "seeking" God. He wasn't "rejecting" God or "cursing" God or "hating" God. He was confused, at his wit's end, and suffering inexplicably while God (for His own purposes and for a season) remained silent. Job did not know about the conversation that God had with Satan.

Yet, it is testified, even through Job's wife, that Job remained a man of integrity. Job was truly a Godly man. That is why God testified about Job as He did in the very beginning of the book of Job, at least twice. This testimony from God lays the groundwork for the entire book of Job. What happened to Job was not about Job at all. It was much bigger than that and it had to do with intense spiritual warfare that was unseen by Job and unbeknownst to Job.

The question is, what would any of us have done in Job's place?

Please share, and elaborate.

Thank you kindly.

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" ~Isaiah 5;20

 

[brinny]

Job did. He said God would laugh at the trial of the innocent. Job said God had stuck his arrows into him without cause.

David went through the same trial as Job. God had stuck his arrows in David, but David did not strive with God, rather he confessed his sin. Read the 38th Psalm carefully and you will see the difference between David's trial, and Job's.

David's trial(s) was nothing like Job's, although he suffered in many ways as well, but there is no comparison in the intensity of it. BOTH David and Job poured out ALL of their angst, agonies, and sufferings to God, however.

 

[thankfulttt]

Elihu was not speaking for God, nor being used of God, but used by the accuser (Satan). Elihu prolifically and blatantly lied about Job and in addition kicked Job, so to speak, when Job was at his absolute lowest and suffering inexplicably. This alone is very "telling" who Elihu was speaking on behalf of. And it wasn't God.

Elihu made this statement-Job 35:2 "Think this to be right, that you said, My righteousness is more than God's?"

Was Elihu correct in his statement?

 

[brinny]

Elihu made this statement-Job 35:2 "Think this to be right, that you said, My righteousness is more than God's?"

Was Elihu correct in his statement?

Job never claimed to be more righteous than God.....God, however did describe Job as righteous, and it was because of some key verses that indicated why God called Job righteous, etc.

Do you know what those verses are?

Thank you kindly.

 

[thankfulttt]

Job never claimed to be more righteous than God.....God, however did describe Job as righteous, and it was because of some key verses that indicated why God called Job righteous, etc.

Do you know what those verses are?

Thank you kindly.

If Elihu was wrong than God must have been wrong. God said, "Will you condemn me that you might be righteous."

God never used the term righteous in reference to Job.

 

[brinny]

If Elihu was wrong than God must have been wrong. God said, "Will you condemn me that you might be righteous."

God never used the term righteous in reference to Job.

How did God describe Job?

Thank you kindly.

 

[thankfulttt]

How did God describe Job?

Thank you kindly.

Blameless and upright, but that was before the second test. After the second test something happened because Job is no longer blameless and upright. We know that because of Job 40:2. We see that Job reproved God and was striving with God. God said in Isaiah 45:9 "Woe unto him that striveth with his maker".

 

[brinny]

Blameless and upright, but that was before the second test. After the second test something happened because Job is no longer blameless and upright. We know that because of Job 40:2. We see that Job reproved God and was striving with God. God said in Isaiah 45:9 "Woe unto him that striveth with his maker".

This wasn't about "Job".

Getting back to what God said about Job, what were the Bible verses that describe what He said to Satan about Job? In addition, where is it written that God said to Satan that all of this was happening to Job "without cause"?

Thank you kindly.

 

[thankfulttt]

This wasn't about "Job".

Getting back to what God said about Job, what were the Bible verses that describe what He said to Satan about Job? In addition, where is it written that God said to Satan that all of this was happening to Job "without cause"?

Thank you kindly.

Why isn't it about Job? Or could you be more specific?

You are referring to the first test which Job passed. It was never so stated after the second test.

 

[brinny]

What are the Bible verses where God describes Job to Satan, and the verse where He says to Satan that these events came against Job without cause?

These events where God allowed Satan to come against Job were not "about Job". As God stated, these events were allowed to come against Job "without cause". What does that mean?

Thank you kindly.

 

[Dialogist]

My opinion of Job is that not many would have liked him if they had known him. According to scripture he was vastly overweight, arrogant, and self serving, having no regard for the poor. He was an extremely wealthy man who believed that the world revolved around himself.

And the Lord said to [the devil], Hast thou diligently considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a man blameless, true, godly, abstaining from everything evil? (Job 1:8 LXX)

 

[thankfulttt]

What are the Bible verses where God describes Job to Satan, and the verse where He says to Satan that these events came against Job without cause?

These events where God allowed Satan to come against Job were not "about Job". As God stated, these events were allowed to come against Job "without cause". What does that mean?

Thank you kindly.

You need to keep everything in context. When God said to Satan, in chapter two verse three, that Satan had moved God against Job without cause, it applied only to the first test. God never said Satan moved him against Job without cause after the second test. After God said that to Satan, then Satan said lets do this over again only a little different, and Job will fail. Job never got a passing grade after the second test. After the second test Job is no longer blessing God as he had done after the first test.

 

[thankfulttt]

And the Lord said to [the devil], Hast thou diligently considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a man blameless, true, godly, abstaining from everything evil? (Job 1:8 LXX)

There wasn't anybody like Satan until he had sinned. There wasn't anybody like Adam until after he sinned. If we follow the principles in the New Testament than the Old Testament become understandable. No man, not even Job could be considered righteous in their own merit. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. This is an example of the most upright man there was, and yet when he was tested he faltered.

 

[brinny]

You need to keep everything in context. When God said to Satan, in chapter two verse three, that Satan had moved God against Job without cause, it applied only to the first test. God never said Satan moved him against Job without cause after the second test. After God said that to Satan, then Satan said lets do this over again only a little different, and Job will fail. Job never got a passing grade after the second test. After the second test Job is no longer blessing God as he had done after the first test.

Job never cursed God or turned against Him. He was desperately crying out to God, Who was silent for a season, and for a reason that Job was not aware of and that had nothing to do with Job. The entire scenario was not about Job at all. It was about God and Satan. It was much larger than Job.

The beginning verses in God's description of Job never changes throughout the entire book of Job.

Thank you kindly.

 

[brinny]

There wasn't anybody like Satan until he had sinned. There wasn't anybody like Adam until after he sinned. If we follow the principles in the New Testament than the Old Testament become understandable. No man, not even Job could be considered righteous in their own merit. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. This is an example of the most upright man there was, and yet when he was tested he faltered.

What did God say about Job again? Please post the verse(s) here and find the key words that indicate why God said what He said about Job. These key words/descriptions are the "keys" to understanding the entire book of Job and Job himself.

Thank you kindly.