Job, saint or sinner, hero or villain?

[thankfulttt]

The beginning verses in God's description of Job never changes throughout the entire book of Job.

Thank you kindly.

This is completely untrue. To prove the point we can take the only time God spoke directly to Job, which was in chapters 38 thru 41, and you can list all the positive things that God said about Job to Job, and I will list all the negative things that God said about Job to Job. Are you up to the challenge?

 

[thankfulttt]

What did God say about Job again? Please post the verse(s) here and find the key words that indicate why God said what He said about Job. These key words/descriptions are the "keys" to understanding the entire book of Job and Job himself.

Thank you kindly.

I have done what you have asked in post 57, so I will re-post it.

(You need to keep everything in context. When God said to Satan, in chapter two verse three, that Satan had moved God against Job without cause, it applied only to the first test. God never said Satan moved him against Job without cause after the second test. After God said that to Satan, then Satan said lets do this over again only a little different, and Job will fail. Job never got a passing grade after the second test. After the second test Job is no longer blessing God as he had done after the first test.)

 

[brinny]

brinny said:
What did God say about Job again? Please post the verse(s) here and find the key words that indicate why God said what He said about Job. These key words/descriptions are the "keys" to understanding the entire book of Job and Job himself.

Thank you kindly.

I have done what you have asked in post 57, so I will re-post it.

(You need to keep everything in context. When God said to Satan, in chapter two verse three, that Satan had moved God against Job without cause, it applied only to the first test. God never said Satan moved him against Job without cause after the second test. After God said that to Satan, then Satan said lets do this over again only a little different, and Job will fail. Job never got a passing grade after the second test. After the second test Job is no longer blessing God as he had done after the first test.)

What are the verses? Please post the verses and the key words that are repeated in the book of Job that lay the foundation for why God describes Job as He does.

If these are not grasped the entire book of Job will not be understood.

God, throughout His Word inserts "keys" almost like "lamp posts" that "light up" His Word, so to speak, to understand it. He does so in the book of Job. These "key" words are crucial in understanding why God said what He said about Job and to give clarity about the point of the entire book of Job.

Thank you kindly.

 

[brinny]

thankfulttt,
...just as a side note:

Satan was aiming and shooting every fiery dart he could at Job, all at once, and relentlessly. He brought into his arsenal humans as well to use as "fiery darts" to strike Job (Job's three friends, the bystander Elihu, and even his wife who told Job to stop being a man of integrity, and to curse God and die - this was right in sync with what Satan was aiming to get Job to do, and thus dis-credit God - the BIGGER picture here).

What also comes to mind is this question:

What would any of us do if we were in Job's place?

Refer back again to the verses where God describes Job and some "key" words that illuminate why God described Job as He did.

Thank you kindly.

 

[thankfulttt]

The beginning verses in God's description of Job never changes throughout the entire book of Job.

Thank you kindly.

In response to the proposed challenge for you to list the positive things God spoke to Job, the following is the negative things God spoke to Job.


Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Job 38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

Job 38:39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,

Job 38:41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

Job 39:1 Knowest thou the time when the wild goats of the rock bring forth? or canst thou mark when the hinds do calve?

Job 39:2 Canst thou number the months that they fulfil? or knowest thou the time when they bring forth?

Job 39:5 Who hath sent out the wild ass free? or who hath loosed the bands of the wild ass?

Job 39:10 Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?

Job 39:11 Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? or wilt thou leave thy labour to him?

Job 39:12 Wilt thou believe him, that he will bring home thy seed, and gather it into thy barn?

Job 39:13 Gavest thou the goodly wings unto the peacocks? or wings and feathers unto the ostrich?

Job 39:19 Hast thou given the horse strength? hast thou clothed his neck with thunder?

Job 39:20 Canst thou make him afraid as a grasshopper? the glory of his nostrils is terrible.

Job 39:26 Doth the hawk fly by thy wisdom, and stretch her wings toward the south?

Job 39:27 Doth the eagle mount up at thy command, and make her nest on high?

Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

Job 40:7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.

Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

cont.-

 

[thankfulttt]

Job 40:9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?

Job 40:10 Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.

Job 40:11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.

Job 40:12-13 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place. Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.

Job 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

God is chastising Job for striving with him. God is saying to Job, if you are going to exalt yourself above me then you should be able to answer yes to all my questions.

God continues, but now directs Job's attention to Satan. Notice that Leviathan is king over all the children of pride. Also notice that Leviathan observes all high things. Who was it that came among the sons of God to observe what was going on in the first chapter of Job?

Job 41:1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down? (Satan)

Job 41:3 Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?

Job 41:4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?

Job 41:34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

Notice that God's ending words to Job are about the king over all the children of pride.

If you will, please post all the positive things God spoke directly to Job.

 

[brinny]

thankfulttt,

Please see post #63 and respond.

Thank you kindly.

 

[thankfulttt]

thankfulttt,

Please see post #63 and respond.

Thank you kindly.

brinny you seem to be asking me to make your case for you, and I can't do that. That is your job. How can I make your case? If there is something I am misreading in your request please clarify it.

Thank you.

 

[brinny]

brinny you seem to be asking me to make your case for you, and I can't do that. That is your job. How can I make your case? If there is something I am misreading in your request please clarify it.

Thank you.

You have not responded to my request for these pivotal verses and key words, even as i requested numerous times on this thread, and you stated you had posted these verses.

I did not see where you posted any of these verses or key words. Did i miss something? Please direct me to where you posted them.

Thank you kindly.

 

[thankfulttt]

You have not responded to my request for these pivotal verses and key words, even as i requested numerous times on this thread, and you stated you had posted these verses.

I did not see where you posted any of these verses or key words. Did i miss something? Please direct me to where you posted them.

Thank you kindly.

 

[thankfulttt]

You have not responded to my request for these pivotal verses and key words, even as i requested numerous times on this thread, and you stated you had posted these verses.

I did not see where you posted any of these verses or key words. Did i miss something? Please direct me to where you posted them.

Thank you kindly.

brinny the Key verses in the book of Job have to do with righteousness. Job's righteousness versus God's righteousness.

The key verses are-

Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?

Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.

The self-righteous Job found that his heart did reproach him in the end. That is when he was born again.

 

[brinny]

brinny the Key verses in the book of Job have to do with righteousness. Job's righteousness versus God's righteousness.

The key verses are-

Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?

Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.

The self-righteous Job found that his heart did reproach him in the end. That is when he was born again.

The key verses/words i'm referring to are in the beginning of the book of Job. God Himself testifies to Job's character. And his character is based on pivotal words as a base for why God described Job as He did to Satan.

Thank you kindly.

 

[thankfulttt]

The key verses/words i'm referring to are in the beginning of the book of Job. God Himself testifies to Job's character. And his character is based on pivotal words as a base for why God described Job as He did to Satan.

Thank you kindly.

You want me to guess what your idea of the key verses are? How can you expect me to do that? Why don't you list all your key verses?

 

[brinny]

You want me to guess what your idea of the key verses are? How can you expect me to do that? Why don't you list all your key verses?

You read the book of Job, did you not, as you stated you had?

If so, in which verses does God describe Job to Satan, and in which verse does God tell Satan that He allowed Job to be afflicted without cause?

Thank you kindly.

 

[thankfulttt]

You read the book of Job, did you not, as you stated you had?

If so, in which verses does God describe Job to Satan, and in which verse does God tell Satan that He allowed Job to be afflicted without cause?

Thank you kindly.

What is [IMG)?

A better question would be; in what verses does God describe Satan to Job? God makes the statement that Job is blameless and upright and avoids evil, as well as maintaining his integrity only after the first test. These statements are not to be found after the second test. The last time it occurs is in Job 2:3. You have not acknowledged that there were two tests. If you compare the two tests you will find that the wording is identical except for where there were changes. Check out the differences and you will see that God did not praise Job after the second test, nor did Job bless God after the second test.

 

[brinny]

Job, saint or sinner, hero or villain?

What is [IMG)?

A better question would be; in what verses does God describe Satan to Job? God makes the statement that Job is blameless and upright and avoids evil, as well as maintaining his integrity only after the first test. These statements are not to be found after the second test. The last time it occurs is in Job 2:3. You have not acknowledged that there were two tests. If you compare the two tests you will find that the wording is identical except for where there were changes. Check out the differences and you will see that God did not praise Job after the second test, nor did Job bless God after the second test.

What are the verses that you are referring to? Please post them.

(IMG = code for "image")

Is there a problem in posting Bible verses? I don't mean no harm, but you have not posted Bible verses yet in response to several requests that you do. If you have the intention of debating and/or discussing the book of Job, it is advisable to be familiar with the book you wish to debate, and key verses where God converses with Satan as He describes Job, and the crucial verse where God Himself says to Satan that Job was afflicted without cause.

Is there a problem?

Thank you kindly.

 

[thankfulttt]

Job, saint or sinner, hero or villain?


What are the verses that you are referring to? Please post them.

(IMG = code for "image")

Is there a problem in posting Bible verses? I don't mean no harm, but you have not posted Bible verses yet in response to several requests that you do. If you have the intention of debating and/or discussing the book of Job, it is advisable to be familiar with the book you wish to debate, and key verses where God converses with Satan as He describes Job, and the crucial verse where God Himself says to Satan that Job was afflicted without cause.

Is there a problem?

Thank you kindly.

You are kidding right? My last post I reference Job 2:3. I counted 34 verses referenced by me on this page alone. I couldn't find one verse that you posted on this page. You are kidding right?

 

[Hank77]

By posting 2 Timothy 3:16 I was trying to make the statement, that if the words of Eliphaz are stated to be scripture, how can he be a liar?

Those words were not a lie, those words were true.

17“Blessed is the one whom God corrects;
so do not despise the discipline of the Almighty.

True again. Verse 18-26 could also be true. But then Eliphaz says this......

27“We have examined this, and it is true.
So hear it and apply it to yourself.”

Was God correcting and disciplining Job? No. That was an incorrect judgement of God's actions and thoughts about His servant Job.

 

[Hank77]

This is completely untrue. To prove the point we can take the only time God spoke directly to Job, which was in chapters 38 thru 41, and you can list all the positive things that God said about Job to Job, and I will list all the negative things that God said about Job to Job. Are you up to the challenge?

Chapter 38
2“Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
This is really the only things God says About Job. That he was talking about things that he had no knowledge of.
Verses 3-41 is the list of things that God did/does that Job had no knowledge of.
Chapter 39
Verses 1-30 God is still telling Job about the things he had no knowledge of.
Chapter 40
2“Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”
Job contended [grappled, wrangled, rather like Jacob with the angel of the Lord] with God. But Job says....good idea Job.
4“I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
5I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more.”
Verses 6-13 God is still telling Job about Himself. Then v14 is a 'key verse' I believe.
14Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.
Verse 15-24 is all about Behemoth
Chapter 41
All of this chapter God describes Leviathan whom He God created.

So what did Job repent of...
2“I know that you can do all things;
no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

3You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.

4“You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.’

Verse 5 - key verse
5My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.
6Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes.”

Key verses....
23“Oh, that my words were recorded,
that they were written on a scroll,
24that they were inscribed with an iron tool on lead,
or engraved in rock forever!

25I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.

26And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

Job knew more many men have from the beginning even until now.

 

[thankfulttt]

Those words were not a lie, those words were true.

17“Blessed is the one whom God corrects;
so do not despise the discipline of the Almighty.

True again. Verse 18-26 could also be true. But then Eliphaz says this......

27“We have examined this, and it is true.
So hear it and apply it to yourself.”

Was God correcting and disciplining Job? No. That was an incorrect judgement of God's actions and thoughts about His servant Job.

Greetings Hank,

I have what I believe to be key points on the book of Job. If you or anyone else is interested in debating them, one point at a time, I would be happy to oblige.

Key questions to ask about the book of Job.

1. Was Job born again in the beginning of the book? This would mean he had a personally relationship with God. That he was clothed in God's righteousness.

My answer is no.

2. Did the three friends ever lie?

My answer is no.

3. Was it God that was responsible for Job's affliction?

My answer is yes.

4. Was Elihu sent from God at Job's request?

My answer is yes.


If anyone has an interest in debating any one these points on a singular basis, meaning only one point at a time, please reply.