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Job, saint or sinner, hero or villain?

Discussion in 'Christian Scriptures' started by thankfulttt, Jul 23, 2015.

  1. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Well---God liked Job---that's about as good a reference as you can get! And God did not kill Job's children----
    Satan did. God, however, allowed Satan to do whatever, within limits. And Satan did everything he could. Where does it say Job was fat??
     
  2. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    Would you care to elaborate?

    Thank you kindly.
     
  3. seekingsolace

    seekingsolace Bah

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    I'm not too sure what the purpose of this is for. Does it matter how we view a person? The bible is very clear on how God really views people.

    If the underlying message is our lack of understanding of Gods judgments, what purpose does trying to tarnish Jobs character serve?
     
  4. thankfulttt

    thankfulttt Member

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    God is no respecter of persons. Christ died for sinners.

    Eliphaz said Job was fat(Job 15:27), and Job substantiates this fact(Job 16:8).
     
  5. thankfulttt

    thankfulttt Member

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    Will be happy to. Will you state why Job was chosen to suffer?

    While the book of Job does not directly tell us who Job is, it does tell us where he is from. The land of Uz. This fact is important to this book do to its presence in the first verse. We learn that Uz is the home of the Edomites in Lamentations 4:21. Job is the greatest man in the land of Uz. In Lamentations we see the cup of woe being passed from the daughter of Zion(Israel-Jacob) to the daughter of Edom(Esau-Job). Before you say that is a stretch consider that in Lamentations chapter three there is a corresponding parallel verse for every one of the first eighteen verses in the book of Job. It is the cup being passed between the two brothers.

    Consider this statement by Elihu. Job 34:29 When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble? and when he hideth his face, who then can behold him? whether it be done against a nation, or against a man only:
     
  6. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    Why Job was chosen to suffer is in the first verses of the book of Job. The "keys" to understanding the book of Job and to Job is in the first verses. It's an exquisite book and one of the most profound in the Bible.

    Thank you kindly.
     
  7. thankfulttt

    thankfulttt Member

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    I am not trying to tarnish Job's character. There are two types of people, the saved and the lost. The book clearly shows that Job's own righteousness failed him, and that he had to submit to God's righteousness.
     
  8. thankfulttt

    thankfulttt Member

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    God's discourse with Satan sets up the testing for the most upright man who lived at that time. The man held up well under the first test but failed the second test. Consider Ezekiel 33:12. When a righteous man sins all his righteousness will be forgotten. When God speaks to Job there is not one word of praise for Job, only condemnation.

    The book is very deep and each verse must be closely examined. Take for example Job 2:8. We think poor Job, but what is that verse really telling us. Job scraping himself with a potsherd. What is a potsherd? We see in Leviticus in the law that when a vessel contains the sin offering and is made of clay it must be broken and turned into a potsherd. In Job 33:6 we see that Job is made of clay. God said, "Woe unto him that strives with his maker!" The word strive found here in the Hebrew in Isaiah 45:9 is the same word that God accuses Job with when he says, "Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him(Job 40:2)?" God goes on to say, "Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth." Do you get the picture of Job scraping himself with a potsherd.
     
  9. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    No--Eliphaz did not say that. From Job 15:1-17 Eliphaz is talking about Job, from verse 20-35 Eliphaz is talking about the wicked.

    (Job 15:20) The wicked man travaileth with pain all his days, and the number of years is hidden to the oppressor.


    And no Job did not substantiate--in fact he said just the opposite

    (Job 16:8) And thou hast filled me with wrinkles, which is a witness against me: and my leanness rising up in me beareth witness to my face.

    Jewish translation might help better understand the meaning of that:

    (Job 16:8) And Thou hast shrivelled me up, which is a witness against me; and my leanness riseth up against me, it testifieth to my face.

    He is saying he is very thin--shriveled, and the thinness is seen in his face--there hadn't been enough time for him to have lost a lot of weight for him to be shriveled already!---So, no--Job was not fat.


    God says it like it is---
    (Job 1:8) And the LORD said unto Satan: 'Hast thou considered My servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a whole-hearted and an upright man, one that feareth God, and shunneth evil?

    ---that is what God thought of Job. I'll take His word over yours.
     
  10. thankfulttt

    thankfulttt Member

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    In Eliphaz's eyes there is no difference between Job and the wicked. Consider the words of Eliphaz. Job 15:5-6 For thy mouth uttereth thine iniquity, and thou choosest the tongue of the crafty. Thine own mouth condemneth thee, and not I: yea, thine own lips testify against thee.
     
  11. thankfulttt

    thankfulttt Member

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    Since we are in Job chapter fifteen I believe it is important to compare what Eliphaz said about Job with what God said.

    Job 15:25 For he stretcheth out his hand against God, and strengtheneth himself against the Almighty.

    Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

    See how God's words match those of Eliphaz. Again God says to Job, "Will you also disannul my judgment? will you condemn me, that you may be righteous?" (Job 40:8)

    If Eliphaz's words are false why wouldn't God's words be false since they both say the same thing?
     
  12. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    You can disregard the obvious if you wish----however---there is no question that the verses are as I said they are. You wish to picture him as fat--go right ahead--it just isn't accurate.

    As far as what Eliphaz says--yes, God did rebuke Job--however---when rebuked, Job says this--
    (Job 42:3) Who is this that hideth counsel without knowledge? Therefore have I uttered that which I understood not, things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
    (Job 42:6) Wherefore I abhor my words, and repent, seeing I am dust and ashes.

    And in regards to what Eliphaz says--God said this to him

    (Job 42:7) And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite: 'My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends; for ye have not spoken of Me the thing that is right, as My servant Job hath.
    If God is content with Job--what makes you think you know better???
     
  13. thankfulttt

    thankfulttt Member

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    I do not have a dog in this fight. I am neither pro Job nor anti Job. I am pro scripture. Whether Job is fat or not doesn't matter to me, but what the scripture says does matter. You might say that the scripture on Job's fatness is satirical, but I believe it is literal as well. Consider the parallel verse referring to the daughter of Zion in Deuteronomy 32:15. In this scene we have Israel as the apple of God's eye, just like Job. But then the apple gets wormy. Jeshurun, which means the "upright one" (Israel/Job) has gotten fat from the abundance of God's goodness and has become wicked. Compare Deuteronomy 32:13-14 with Job 29:6 and see how the wording is similar between Israel and Job.

    We have discussed Job 15 where Eliphaz and God have the same description of Job. You say Eliphaz is speaking of the wicked and yet God says the same words to Job that Eliphaz has spoken. Shouldn't the conclusion be that Job is wicked at this point. We are all wicked before we put on God's righteousness. Job at that point was clothed in his own righteousness(Job 29:24). When Job confessed his wickedness was when he put on God's righteousness. God was waiting for the three friends to confess their wickedness as well.

    The words of Eliphaz are the only ones quoted as scripture in the New Testament that are found in the book of Job. Eliphaz stated a paraphrase of the first two beatitudes as found in Matthew 5. I would refer you to John 10:35 and the words of Jesus as referring to those that presented us with scripture.
     
  14. thankfulttt

    thankfulttt Member

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    Why doesn't anybody care that God said Job exalted himself above God? Job 40:8.

    This is what Satan did.
     
  15. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    LOL--I will ask the same thing if you---

    (Job 40:8) Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

    God's final assessment of Job is:

    (Job 42:9) So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.
    (Job 42:10) And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.

    For someone who doesn't have " a dog in this fight" you seem very determined to ignore the judgment of God in regard to Job. It is His judgment that is the final word, you want to make it be your judgment. Job may have erred in some of his thinking--which may have been tantamount to saying his judgment was above God's, but when it was pointed out, he quickly repented. Satan never did. What about you?? You insist on making him fat, when the scriptures say just the opposite, now you want to make him ni better than Satan himself! He said something wrong, he repented--God accepted--you won't.
     
  16. thankfulttt

    thankfulttt Member

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    A man exalting himself above God is not consistent with a man who is perfect and upright. At some point Job fell. You could equate Job to Adam, who was blameless and perfect until iniquity was found in him.

    Can't you see the picture? The book of Job is about the redemption of man. Born blameless until iniquity is found in him. Job needed a redeemer. As the NT tells us even the most righteous man cannot be his own saviour, for all his righteousness becomes filthy rags once he sins. Job needed to abandon his own righteous and put on God's righteousness. This is why we are told to put on Christ.

    We see the picture of Job in Israel as Paul makes his plea for Israel in Romans 10:1-3.

    Paul says his desire for Israel is that they might be saved. This was God's desire for Job.

    Paul said that they have a zeal for God. Job had a zeal for God, this is why Job is called God's servant.

    Paul said they were without knowledge. God said Job was without knowledge (Job 38:2).

    Paul said they were going about to establish their own righteousness. Job said, (Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.)

    God said, (Job 35:2 Think this to be right, that you said, My righteousness is more than God's?)

    Paul said, ("They have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." Romans 10:3) Salvation comes when we submit unto God. This is what the book of Job is about, Job's salvation.

    God asked Job if he was going to make a covenant with Satan (Job 41:4). To understand the book of Job we merely need to look at the rest of the bible, it is all about our redemption. Job was redeemed at the end.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2015
  17. thankfulttt

    thankfulttt Member

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    What is amazing is that everyone defends Job and makes him their hero. Yes Job was perfect and upright; until sin was found in him. But how about defending God. Where is God's defenders. Job said God was unjust (Job 9:17/ Ezekiel 14:23, Job 9:23. In the prior verses Job is calling God unjust, and everyone just gives Job a pass. How about if Noah, or Daniel, or David, or Stephen, or Paul had done the same? Would you be alright with that?
     
  18. Llewelyn Stevenson

    Llewelyn Stevenson Active Member

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    Why quote Eliphaz? God said he lied.
     
  19. Llewelyn Stevenson

    Llewelyn Stevenson Active Member

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    Does God need to be defended? Has anyone said God was unjust? I have read the context surrounding some of the verses you have quoted and I come to a different conclusion. I don't see Job as accusing God so much as defending himself in the face of his friends. Yes, Job's experience is a wonderful testimony to restoration and restoring intimates the need for changes. I actually like the salvationist view you represent. It is good to guide men to the foot of the cross. I think we are creating debate about nothing, however I disagree with you initial character representation of Job. I think its character assassination and unnecessary. Job suffered at the hands of Satan; Job learned the truth about God; Job repented; God restored him, but the fact remains Job was not being punished for sin, his reputation was clean at the time of the disastrous events. To paint him any other way distorts God's own witness of him.
     
  20. thankfulttt

    thankfulttt Member

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    I apologize for correcting you but God never said Eliphaz lied. Job and his three friends were all in the same boat. Not a one of them had repented and put on God's righteousness, at least not until the last chapter where Job repented and exchanged his own robe of righteousness for God's mantle. This is what Job had said that the three friends had not yet said. That is what God was telling the three friends. They had not yet confessed or spoken the words of confession that Job had just done prior to God's statement.

    It is a fact that in 1 Corinthians 3:19 Paul says, "For it is written, he taketh the wise in their own craftiness." The NIV footnote cites Job 5:13 as the reference. Those are the words of Eliphaz. Eliphaz states in paraphrase the first two beatitudes of Jesus as found in Matthew 5:3-4. The bible says "all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, for instruction righteousness."
     
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