Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

[MikeEnders]

How does this justify your argument for OSAS?

Your arguments can also be applied to many non-Christians that don't sin because they just want to go out and sin all the time.

Example: Just because an atheist does not sin doesn't make him a Christian either.

this thread just gets stranger and stranger. How can an atheist not be continually sinning just for being an atheist?

Weird and its getting tedious and boring

 

[HatGuy]

Human children are sometimes disinherited by their biological parents for various reasons.

God does indeed disinherit His adopted children for their disobedience.

A. The quote you posted from me is in the context of Matthew Twentyfour saying we only become children of God when we are "transformed" and this takes a lifetime (it sounded like he was saying it happens when we die). Given that he liked your post, I'd really like for him to clarify what he is saying there. If he agrees with your post here and believes that we become children of God at death, then can we also be disinherited after death? Matthew Twentyfour must mean something else, but he seems to be avoiding being clear about this.

B. When fallen human beings with limited authority and power and inability to change hearts disinherit their children it does not follow that the perfect God does too.

C. The Prodigal Son parable says nothing about the father disinheriting the son. I think Jesus must have used the picture of father-son relationship rather deliberately.

D. In Roman adoption you could not disinherit yyours on.

E. Biological parents might be able to disinherit their son, but they can never do anything about biology. A son is still a son.

Your scriptures have to do with inheritance, being perfected, etc. I'm waiting for someone to show where in Matt 7 it indicates the goats were once also sheep. Any ideas where it says that?

When deciding on this issue I realized none of the pictures used in referring to justification are pictures that indicate a reversal can happen. If you subscribe to forensic justification, even that legal picture indicates something that cannot be undone (a judge does not haul you back to court if someone paid your fine already).

 

[LoveofTruth]

A. The quote you posted from me is in the context of Matthew Twentyfour saying we only become children of God when we are "transformed" and this takes a lifetime (it sounded like he was saying it happens when we die). Given that he liked your post, I'd really like for him to clarify what he is saying there. If he agrees with your post here and believes that we become children of God at death, then can we also be disinherited after death? Matthew Twentyfour must mean something else, but he seems to be avoiding being clear about this.

B. When fallen human beings with limited authority and power and inability to change hearts disinherit their children it does not follow that the perfect God does too.

C. The Prodigal Son parable says nothing about the father disinheriting the son. I think Jesus must have used the picture of father-son relationship rather deliberately.

D. In Roman adoption you could not disinherit yyours on.

E. Biological parents might be able to disinherit their son, but they can never do anything about biology. A son is still a son.

Your scriptures have to do with inheritance, being perfected, etc. I'm waiting for someone to show where in Matt 7 it indicates the goats were once also sheep. Any ideas where it says that?

When deciding on this issue I realized none of the pictures used in referring to justification are pictures that indicate a reversal can happen. If you subscribe to forensic justification, even that legal picture indicates something that cannot be undone (a judge does not haul you back to court if someone paid your fine already).

Our old man or nature is like a pig or goat or any other unclean animal we can think of. When we come to Christ we are clean, but like a pig washed the cleaning is inward not outward. Our old nature , or the old man has to be crucified. We don't live in the old man, but in the new man where Christ dwells in our heart by faith. If a man goes back into sin and the flesh it is like a pig that was washed going back to his old nature.

That's somewhat how I understand it. So each person has the old man and the new man, the old man is the flesh and to live in that is sin. the new man is in the spirit in Christ and to live in that is life. Paul says it like this,

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin...12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God." (Romans 6:6, 12,13)

and

"13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." (Romans 8:13)

"
Romans 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing

 

[JLB777]

a judge does not haul you back to court if someone paid your fine already).

The judge does haul you back to court and reverse's his earlier ruling to forgive you if you yourself do not forgive others...

32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me.33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses. Matthew 18:32-35

JLB

 

[HatGuy]

The judge does haul you back to court and reverse's his earlier ruling to forgive you if you yourself do not forgive others...

32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me.33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses. Matthew 18:32-35

JLB

Good scripture. Never thought of that one! Thank you. Requires more study on my part if I go that route.

 

[HatGuy]

Our old man or nature is like a pig or goat or any other unclean animal we can think of. When we come to Christ we are clean, but like a pig washed the cleaning is inward not outward. Our old nature , or the old man has to be crucified. We don't live in the old man, but in the new man where Christ dwells in our heart by faith. If a man goes back into sin and the flesh it is like a pig that was washed going back to his old nature.

That's somewhat how I understand it. So each person has the old man and the new man, the old man is the flesh and to live in that is sin. the new man is in the spirit in Christ and to live in that is life. Paul says it like this,

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin...12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God." (Romans 6:6, 12,13)

and

"13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." (Romans 8:13)

"
Romans 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing

This sounds like a Keswick approach to holiness. I kind of agree but also don't. Romans 7, for example, is about Paul's life under law, and what it's like to go back under law - frustrating. But we rather live in the Spirit as we are dead to law and sin.

This being dead to law and sin (Romans 6 says we have (past tense),died to sin) leads me to OSAS, or rather once justified, always justified. But there is a lot to discuss on the subject of holiness and I'm not sure if this is the thread for it.

 

[Matthew Twentyfour]

this thread just gets stranger and stranger. How can an atheist not be continually sinning just for being an atheist?

Weird and its getting tedious and boring

No one can be completely free without sin no matter how righteous. 1 John 3:9 doesn't imply perfection, but one who does not willfully continue to practise the same sin. He works with Christ to overcome the sins he couldn't before alone.

1 John 3:9 ESV No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Being completely free from sin is impossible. Satan can cause sinful thought in anyone. However, one is righteous by resisting the will to practise those evil thoughts.

Matthew 5:28 ESV
But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Mark 7:20-23 ESV
And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”

Worrying is a sin.

Philippians 4:6 ESV
do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.

I hope 1 Cor 6:19-20 does not mean people overweight are perpetual sinners.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 ESV
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

1 Cor 7:2 puts unattractive people in jeopardy.

1 Corinthians 7:2 ESV
But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.

Had I use a buddhist monk instead of an atheist, the comment would of made more sense. They practise righteous more than most Christians.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yeah I sin, I'm a sinner. I don't believe in OSAS but I rely on Christ who redeems me through repentance. I walk with and rely on Christ. Can you say the same?

Why don't you believe OSAS but "rely on Christ". How much are you trusting Him to keep you saved? You see, either one's trust is fully IN Christ for salvation, or it's devided between what He did for you and what you must also do for yourself, or Him. Either way, that is not the faith found in the Bible. Either your trust in Him is 100% or you don't have saving faith.

Do you think you're perfect because you're once saved always save never having to recognize your sins but fully rely on your own justification?

What confusion! No one is perfect, ok? I cited 1 Jn 1:8 so your question was quite out of line. Second, OSAS doesn't mean "never having to recognize our sins". That is absurd. OSAS means we are secure in our relationship with Christ. OSAS ALWAYS teaches that we must continually confess our sins for cleansing (1 Jn 1:9) and fellowship. And third, no one "relies on their own justification". It is God's justification that we rely on, not our own.

I can also say I'm not saved till He declares my salvation.

Does this mean that you don't consider yourself saved yet? When will that occur?

Can you say the same?

Heavens, no. I'd never say that! I can say with the full confidence of Scripture that I WAS saved WHEN I believed in Jesus Christ for eternal life. And I'm still saved, and will continue to be saved forever. Can you say the same?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"I said this:
"All of this is refuted by the simple fact that eternal life is a gift from God, received by faith in Christ and is irrevocable."

I already did. See above."

Eisegesis refutes nothing.

So, you aren't familiar with the meaning of eisegesis, huh? There is no eisegesis in my post about eternal life being irrevocable. Paul defined eternal life as a gift of God BEFORE he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Rom 11:29 is about what Paul defined as gifts in Romans before that verse.

It only shows your true nature. There's nothing in all of Romans 11 that said eternal life is irrevocable.

Seriously? Here it is again: Paul noted spiritual gifts in 1:11. They are irrevocable because they are from God. Paul defined justification as a gift of God in Rom 5:15-17, and eternal life as a gift of God in 6:23.

If Paul DIDN'T mean these defined gifts when he wrote 11:29, then prove it.

You've been asked numerous times to prove your argument but has never proven to anyone the gifts in Romans 11:29 implies eternal life.

The proof is in the pudding: 1:11, 5:15-17 and 6:23. These are the gifts that Paul noted before he wrote 11:29. Nothing else.

You're just rejecting what Paul said the gifts (blessings originally promised to the Jews) are

Please show me in ch 11 where Paul defined blessings promised to the Jews as gifts.

Romans 11:1-2
1 I ask, then: Did God reject his own people? Certainly not! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people, whom he chose from the beginning. You know what the scripture says in the passage where Elijah pleads with God against Israel:

Romans 11:26-29
26 And this is how all Israel will be saved. As the scripture says,

“The Savior will come from Zion
and remove all wickedness from the descendants of Jacob.
27 I will make this covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
​

28 Because they reject the Good News, the Jews are God's enemies for the sake of you Gentiles. But because of God's choice, they are his friends because of their ancestors. 29 For God does not change his mind about whom he chooses and blesses.

FREEGRACE2,

QUESTION: If Romans 11:29 is about eternal life, why would God grant eternal life to the Israelites who are under the law and can't save themselves by their works?

What's preposterous is you thinking the Israelites can have eternal life under the law.

No, what is truly preposterous is that you think that I think this. No one ever received eternal life under the law. Eternal life is received ONLY through faith in Christ. For the OT Jews, it was faith in the Messiah.

And your answer is, Once Stumped Always Stumped.

Really quite pathetic. Your post stumps no one, but does reveal how poorly you've understood my posts.

The reason Rom 11:29 is about eternal life and justification is that Paul already DEFINED them as gifts of God before he wrote 11:29. And he did NOT exclude what he had already defined as gifts of God when he wrote 11:29.

egg…on…face

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"I said this:
"There are NO verses that teach that loss of belief equals loss of salvation. That is a fallacy. Unsupported by Scripture."

Funny, none of these verses says that salvation can be lost. I understand that the insecurity crowd thinks that's what these verses mean, but they sure don't say that.

otoh, Paul defined justification (Rom 3;24 and 5:15-17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God before he noted that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29, which proves that none of the above verses CAN mean that salvation can be lost."

Here let's do this again. Is your faith not your belief?

Do verbs equal nouns? The act of believing is a verb. Belief is a noun, or what is believed. I'm not sure that you're clear on that.

It said in Hebrews if you abandon your faith, you cannot come to repentance.

And?

Is it easier to read Hebrews in big bold red letter?

Actually, the childish technique of bolding in red adds nothing.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For how can those who abandon their faith be brought back to repent again? They were once in God's light; they tasted heaven's gift and received their share of the Holy Spirit;5 they knew from experience that God's word is good, and they had felt the powers of the coming age. 6 And then they abandoned their faith! It is impossible to bring them back to repent again, because they are again crucifying the Son of God and exposing him to public shame.

Rev 2:16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

Rev 2:22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

I find it sad that not coming back to repent seems to equal loss of salvation, esp since there is NO mention in this or any other passage about anyone losing their salvation. And there are plenty of people in the Bible who were obviously saved and fell hard before they died. Yet, not any mention of losing salvation. Not even the Exodus generation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Now, that's an amazing statement, given the answer of Paul to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be SAVED. Acts 16:30

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you WILL BE SAVED." Acts 16:31

Either Paul lied, or your view is dead wrong."

You forgot the 3rd conclusion.

Please explain.

You don't understand Paul.

I don't understand your posts. And maybe you don't understand Paul. The jailer directly asked Paul what he MUST DO to be saved. And Paul's answer was just as clear and direct: believe (aorist tense) and you will be saved.

Those who believe ARE saved. I already pointed out that Jesus said that those who believe HAVE eternal life. Are you disagreeing with Jesus?

 

[FreeGrace2]

So God created and expanded hell for nothing? Let me guess, you must think God made the book of life and lake of fire for something leisure like a Summer camp-outs?

These questions are bizarre. Have you read anything in my posts? Seems not.

What non-Christian do you know would call Jesus as their lord or perform any acts "In His name?"

I'm truly sorry for your naivety, but pick out any liberal protestant church who thinks one is saved by doing "good works" or catholics who think the same.

What non-Christians do you know perform miracles or prophecies in the name of Christ?

Anyone who is demon possessed. Those familiar with the Bible are quite aware of what Acts 19:13-18 is about: unbelievers casting out demons.

Do you not end your prayer in Jesus' name?

Of course I do.

 

[AVBunyan]

You are on shaky ground if you walk in sin and say you are still saved.

1. Do you beleive all the bible is doctrinally for you today? Simple Yes or No will do.

2. What does one have to believe today in order to be saved?

I'll be waiting for your answers.

Oh BTW - anybody here is also welcome to answer the above 2 questions - thanks.

God bless

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"This needs to be addressed. Disinheriting by parents doesn't change the RELATIONSHIP. The child REMAINS the birth child. The DNA does NOT change. What changes is the FELLOWSHIP between parent and child.

That's what the insecurity crowd seems not to get. ."

Unfortunately you don't even get your own analogy. The child would always have the nature of the parent due to sharing the DNA so he would not be able to shake those inherited characteristics.

It's not I that isn't getting this. When one is born again, we don't lose the old sin nature. But we do get a new spiritual nature. And you've actually made my point. The relationship between birth parent and child cannot be broken. That was my point.

As john teaches a believer inherits the seed so he cannot sin AND because he is born of God he must overcome.

John NEVER said that a believer cannot sin. That would be sinless perfection. And John had already noted in 1 Jn 1:8 that we all continue to sin.

 

[JLB777]

Why don't you believe OSAS but "rely on Christ". How much are you trusting Him to keep you saved? You see, either one's trust is fully IN Christ for salvation, or it's devided between what He did for you and what you must also do for yourself, or Him. Either way, that is not the faith found in the Bible. Either your trust in Him is 100% or you don't have saving faith.

I'm glad to see you finally understand now why OSAS is a false doctrine.

Paul warned the Galatians Christians of this very thing.

They begun by receiving the Spirit, but later began keeping the law of Moses and became circumcised, of which Paul said that they were turning away from Christ if they did these things.

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9

JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

Believers are adopted children by the way we are not the only begotten of the Father as Jesus.

We are BORN AGAIN and are NEW CREATURES. Your view is sadly mistaken.

And even if a man is a son he can be dead when left the house as the prodigal son was and alive again when he comes back. If he is dead, then he is not in salavtion.

This is totally confused. The prodigal parable wasn't about salvation but about fellowship.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Why don't you believe OSAS but "rely on Christ". How much are you trusting Him to keep you saved? You see, either one's trust is fully IN Christ for salvation, or it's devided between what He did for you and what you must also do for yourself, or Him. Either way, that is not the faith found in the Bible. Either your trust in Him is 100% or you don't have saving faith."

I'm glad to see you finally understand now why OSAS is a false doctrine.

Apparently your confusion continues, since your claim is 100% false.

Paul warned the Galatians Christians of this very thing.

That they could lose eternal life? Please cite the exact verse to support your opinion.

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9

JLB

Once again, nothing here about loss of savation. When will someone from the insecurity crowd cite a verse that actually says something about loss of salvation?

 

[JLB777]

"This needs to be addressed. Disinheriting by parents doesn't change the RELATIONSHIP. The child REMAINS the birth child. The DNA does NOT change. What changes is the FELLOWSHIP between parent and child.

That's what the insecurity crowd seems not to get. ."

What you don't seem to understand is, angels who are sons of God has been cast into hell.

Lucifer who is now Satan, is a son of God and he also will be cast into hell with all his angels.

So much for your fellowship and relationship "theory".


JLB

 

[LoveofTruth]

We are BORN AGAIN and are NEW CREATURES. Your view is sadly mistaken.

No I am accurate here,

"...us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself...: (Ephesians 1:5)


This is totally confused. The prodigal parable wasn't about salvation but about fellowship.[/QUOTE]

You are not right there as well

"Luke 15:24
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found..."

To be dead and alive again and lost and found, is not simply fellowship. You twist scripture when it doesnt fit your view. Sometimes it only takes one scripture to bring down a huge false giant of OSAS as David only needed one smooth stone to bring down Goliath.

and dead and lost will obviously mean they have no fellowship either .

 

[JLB777]

I said this:
"Why don't you believe OSAS but "rely on Christ". How much are you trusting Him to keep you saved? You see, either one's trust is fully IN Christ for salvation, or it's devided between what He did for you and what you must also do for yourself, or Him. Either way, that is not the faith found in the Bible. Either your trust in Him is 100% or you don't have saving faith."

Apparently your confusion continues, since your claim is 100% false.


That they could lose eternal life? Please cite the exact verse to support your opinion.


Once again, nothing here about loss of savation. When will someone from the insecurity crowd cite a verse that actually says something about loss of salvation?

I did, but since you don't understand what cursed means, it kind hard to have an intelligent conversation.

Example of Cursed -

‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


Now it's up to you to show from the scriptures, that cursed people continue to be saved and go to heaven.


Just like the phrase "will not inherit the kingdom of God", which is a reference to being cast into hell, which you mistakenly think means loss of rewards, and continue peddling your unbiblical teachings while disregarding what the bible so plainly teaches.

Those who repent and are saved, but then turn back to practicing the works of the flesh, are warned they will not inheriting the kingdom of God.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Now it's up to you to prove from the scriptures where Jesus used this phrase
"inherit the kingdom" to mean rewards.

JLB