The Truth about ERVs

[mark kennedy]

No, but you have to quote him accurately, otherwise you are a liar.

That's not a quote, it's a conclusion.

 

[mark kennedy]

You could at least try to be honest about what other people are claiming. Is that too much to ask?

That's easy, he didn't claim much, some rambling about the Phoenix Virus and that's about it.

Of course they aren't identical. THEY EVOLVED!!!

Typical, if it's the same it's a homology argument, if it changes it's evolution or more often, selection.

Did you forget that evolution is CHANGE OVER TIME? How is pointing to change evidence against evolution when change is exactly what we should see with evolution?

Well sure, what do you see when a codon changes in a protein coding gene? I'll give you a clue, it's called a frameshift.

No one is saying that the sequence of ERV's is identical. They are saying that the insertions are found at the identical base. Of course there are accumulation of lineage specific mutations. THAT'S WHAT EVOLUTION DOES!!!

Both of you claimed that they were identical, did you change your mind about that? Except for the Ptervs over course.

No one is claiming that the sequences are identical. Are you telling us that you don't even understand how genetics works?

As many exchanges as we have had and you have never once discussed genetics with me. Why would you start now?

Doesn't change the fact that they are there. You can claim on and on how much destruction a meteor impact would have, but it doesn't change the fact that there are massive meteor craters on the Earth.

That's a non sequitur and some pretty lazy rhetoric. They are there? Seriously? That's your argument.

Even when faced with overwhelming evidence that modern retroviruses are producing ERV's in koalas you will still not accept the fact that retroviruses produce ERV's. Incredible.

Making them highly prone to disease and disorder. I didn't say they didn't happen but 8% of the human genome being the result of them is ridiculous.

Where doesn't it stand up? You are actually pointing to evolution of gene sequences as evidence against evolution. How pathetic is that?

I've never argued against evolution, only Darwinism. Didn't you hear LM, the culture wars are over. What are you still doing here? When I started this I was getting gang tackled by ten posters, at least one scientist and always but always one very nasty troll. Now it's just you, haven't you noticed things have slowed way down?

Just saying...

 

[Loudmouth]

That's easy, he didn't claim much, some rambling about the Phoenix Virus and that's about it.

This is what you said:

"[Barry] is fond of saying that all the ERVs in humans and chimpanzees are identical which is impossible."

I am still asking you. Where has Barry ever concluded that or said that? It seems to me that you are putting words in his mouth.

Typical, if it's the same it's a homology argument, if it changes it's evolution or more often, selection.

It is not a homology argument. That is what you keep ignoring. It is a nested hierarchy argument which requires a pattern for both similarities AND DIFFERENCES. Evolution from common ancestors predicts that we should see a nested hierarchy of homology AND lineage specific mutations.

Do you really think that evolution predicts that every single genome for every single organism should be 100% identical? Really?

Well sure, what do you see when a codon changes in a protein coding gene? I'll give you a clue, it's called a frameshift.

Substitution mutations do not produce frameshifts. Indels that are not multiples of 3 produce frameshifts. If an AAC codon is mutated to TAC that does not produce a frameshift.

Both of you claimed that they were identical, did you change your mind about that? Except for the Ptervs over course.

We claimed that over 200,000 ERV's are found at identical POSITIONS in the genome while only a relative handful are not.

As to PtERV's, why don't you answer this little question. According to creationism, should PtERV insertions in chimps and gorillas be found at the same position in each genome? Explain your answer.

As many exchanges as we have had and you have never once discussed genetics with me.

How is discussing the phylogeny of orthologous ERV's and the divergence of ERV sequence not a discussion on genetics?

That's a non sequitur and some pretty lazy rhetoric. They are there? Seriously? That's your argument.

We observe that the Koala retrovirus is infecting koalas right now. We observe that there are ERV's in the koala genome that match that retrovirus. We also observe that koalas from 120 years ago did not have those ERV's.

How is this not rock solid evidence?

Making them highly prone to disease and disorder. I didn't say they didn't happen but 8% of the human genome being the result of them is ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous? These would have been accumulating for tens of millions of years.

I've never argued against evolution, only Darwinism. Didn't you hear LM, the culture wars are over. What are you still doing here? When I started this I was getting gang tackled by ten posters, at least one scientist and always but always one very nasty troll. Now it's just you, haven't you noticed things have slowed way down?

Just saying...

You are still repeating the same false arguments. You still don't understand that evolution from common ancestors will produce a nested hierarchy of similarities and differences. This is one of the most fundamental aspects of evolution, and you don't understand it.

I would strongly suggest that you read this paper:

Constructing primate phylogenies from ancient retrovirus sequences

In that paper, the authors discuss how mutations in orthologous ERV's evidence common ancestry and evolution.

"Second, as with other sequence-based phylogenetic analyses, mutations in a provirus that have accumulated since the divergence of the species provide an estimate of the genetic distance between the species. . .

Third, sequence divergence between the LTRs at the ends of a given provirus provides an important and unique source of phylogenetic information. The LTRs are created during reverse transcription to regenerate cis-acting elements required for integration and transcription. Because of the mechanism of reverse transcription, the two LTRs must be identical at the time of integration, even if they differed in the precursor provirus (Fig. 1A). Over time, they will diverge in sequence because of substitutions, insertions, and deletions acquired during cellular DNA replication. "

The differences in ERV's are also used to test common ancestry and evolution in that the divergence produces the expected nested hierarchies as shown by the divergence of LTR's in this figure:

Constructing primate phylogenies from ancient retrovirus sequences

 

[46AND2]

Aman, in your scenario, where are the ERVs that would have been unique to humans from the billions of years between Adam and Noah? We should have hundreds of thousands of ERVs that we inherited from noahs family which chimps do not have.

I'm guessing your ad hoc explanation will be that there was disease in the biosphere, just not ERVs. And that is all your story is...a litany of ad hoc explanations to fit an assumed result. If this was the year 1800, nobody would have gleaned your story from the bible, spirit-filled or not, because there was no theory of evolution you had to work around.

 

[46AND2]

Aman, in your scenario, where are the ERVs that would have been unique to humans from the billions of years between Adam and Noah? We should have hundreds of thousands of ERVs that we inherited from noahs family which chimps do not have.

I'm guessing your ad hoc explanation will be that there was disease in the biosphere, just not ERVs. And that is all your story is...a litany of ad hoc explanations to fit an assumed result. If this was the year 1800, nobody would have gleaned your story from the bible, spirit-filled or not, because there was no theory of evolution you had to work around.

Heck, set aside the ERVs....where is the massive amount of uniquely human DNA in general that should be absent from chimps? The part of our DNA that we inherited from noahs family?

 

[BarryDesborough]

In case your unaware Barry was soundly refuted on these ERV arguments:

ERVs put chimp/human common ancestry beyond any reasonable doubt.

He is fond of saying that all the ERVs in humans and chimpanzees are identical which is impossible. Only 29% of the protein coding genes are identical, there's no way ERVs would be. They are supposedly the result of germline invasions and make up 8% of the human genome which is rather hard to accept.

One ERV that has been studied extensively is HIV. It is profoundly dangerous to the human immune system, just imagine how dangerous it would be in the germline cells (early embryo). They would be devastating but we are supposed to believe that 8% of the human genome is the result of germline invasions.

Evolutionists are just ridiculous when it comes to these homology arguments.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Mark, it is not very graceful for you to but into a debate between two people. I have started a new debate thread for the two of us. I have started it by responding to the statements you have made in the above post of yours. Go to http://www.christianforums.com/t7782779/

 

[Heissonear]

Dear Coelo, Adam lived for Billions of years BEFORE he and Eve were "created in God's Image" as Genesis 5:1-2 shows. AFTER Adam was born again Spiritually, he lived for 130 years and then had Seth. Adam lived for 930 years AFTER he and Eve were born Spiritually before he died. Gen. 5:5

Ancient men thought that God listed EVERY person in the list you posted, BUT that is not so. Archbishop James Ussher thought the SAME. The Jewish year is 5773 today, since they made the same mistake that ancient men and Ussher made. This dating was placed in the margins of the Bible for 300 years from 1650-1950 before it was removed.

Adam was "formed from the dust of the ground" on the 3rd Day. Gen. 2:4-7 This is the SAME Day the first Earth AND our 2nd heaven was made, showing that Adam was made Billions of years ago. Eve was not made until the present 6th Day (Gen. 2:22) and BOTH were "created in God's Image" or born again on the SAME 6th Day AFTER Cain killed Abel. Gen. 5:1-2

3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (5752) (as was supposed ) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

The above verse shows that Joseph was the son of Heli, BUT he was not as the following verse shows:

Matthew 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Joseph was the SON IN LAW of Heli. This verse is showing that Joseph AND Mary were both descended from David. I listed this to show you how easy it is to become confused about what you are actually reading.

God does NOT list those who were NOT born Spiritually. In order to see this, look for Cain or ANY of his descendants who are listed in the order from Adam to Jesus.

Here is another interesting fact. Adam died on the present 6th Day EXACTLY as the LORD/Jesus told him he would if he disobeyed and ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Otherwise, the LORD lied and satan told him the Truth. Today remains the 6th Day in the Creation of the perfect Heaven. God Bless you.

In Love,
Aman

.

Aman,

Your distorted interpretation of Genesis 1 & 2 has you twisting other Scriptures. Do you really think people are going to "believe" your false teachings?


.

 

[Aman777]

Aman,

Your distorted interpretation of Genesis 1 & 2 has you twisting other Scriptures. Do you really think people are going to "believe" your false teachings? .

Dear Heissonear, No. Only those who believe Jesus will believe my Scriptual teaching. Those, like you, will continue to preach the unsupported religious thoughts of ancient men who lived thousands of years before science and education. Does it make you proud to agree with those who could NOT possibly understand the Supreme Intelligence of Creation? Here is what Jesus said:

Jhn 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his Lord. If they have persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept My saying, they will keep yours also.

WHY do you refuse to believe the words of Jesus?

In Love,
Aman

 

[SLP]

He is fond of saying that all the ERVs in humans and chimpanzees are identical which is impossible. Only 29% of the protein coding genes are identical,

Yes - identical base-by-base. What if a 1500 bp gene differs by 1 bp? It is not 100% identical anymore, is it? But it would be foolish to claim that they are not related.



Here is how the YEC gurus operate on this issue (including the likes of Gish and new clown in town, Jeff Tomkins):


These two sequences are 100% identical:

ATTGTCGTGT
ATTGTCGTGT

These 2 are 90% identical:

ATTGTCGTGT
ATTGTCGTGA

These 2 are only 20% identical:

ATTGTCGTGT
ATGTCGTGT


Are such claims the result of dishonesty, stupidity, or both?

there's no way ERVs would be.

See above.

They are supposedly the result of germline invasions and make up 8% of the human genome which is rather hard to accept.

Too bad. Any evidence that this is not the case?

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Aman, in your scenario, where are the ERVs that would have been unique to humans from the billions of years between Adam and Noah? We should have hundreds of thousands of ERVs that we inherited from noahs family which chimps do not have.

Why would they be unique to only humans, when it was those ERV's that brought the genes from other species to other species? As the ERV's brought genomes of other creatures to us, they brought ours to other creatures. Why you ignore the prevalence of the experiments to the effects of HGT is confusing?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10607609

"Increasingly, studies of genes and genomes suggest that there has been an extensive amount of horizontal gene transfer among microorganisms"

So we know ERV's are foreign to the host. That these viruses carry genomes of other species into other species, which the host then uses only for the proteins produced which enable the ERV's to continue to survive. That these occur in what is claimed to be non-coding DNA, and so affect the host DNA replication process not at all, except for the additional proteins to power the growth.

There is nothing that specifically points to any process of lineage - even if we ignore how life currently reproduces - but instead increasingly, studies are showing that it is from HGT.

 

[Loudmouth]

Why would they be unique to only humans, when it was
those ERV's that brought the genes from other species to other species?

What genes are they bringing? From what I have seen, when the endogenous provirus produces exogenous virus it only contains the retroviral genome, and not any of the genes from the host.

Also, when a retrovirus inserts into the host genome it does so among millions and millions of insertion sites. This means that each insertion into the host genome will produce a unique insertion at a unique base.

As the ERV's brought genomes of other creatures to us, they brought ours to other creatures. Why you ignore the prevalence of the experiments to the effects of HGT is confusing?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10607609

The only HGT involved is the insertion of viral genes at unique positions in the genome which allows us to differentiate between vertically inherited ERV's from a common ancestor and lineage specific insertions.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

What genes are they bringing? From what I have seen, when the endogenous provirus produces exogenous virus it only contains the retroviral genome, and not any of the genes from the host.

Come on, is denial of the evidence what we are going to claim?

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=lateral+gene+transfer&btnG=&as_sdt=1,37&as_sdtp=

Also, when a retrovirus inserts into the host genome it does so among millions and millions of insertion sites. This means that each insertion into the host genome will produce a unique insertion at a unique base.

And this is exactly what you see with every single EVR - the point it was inserted into the genome and when it began being passed down through VGT. It scientists that claim they can track them down to where they were inserted. Why blame me for their claims?

The only HGT involved is the insertion of viral genes at unique positions in the genome which allows us to differentiate between vertically inherited ERV's from a common ancestor and lineage specific insertions.

Oh please - 100,000 years from now that ERV will have 100,000 years of VGT behind it and you'll be claiming it's from Vertical Gene Transfer too, even if you can trace it to it's insertion point.

 

[Loudmouth]

Come on, is denial of the evidence what we are going to claim?

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=lateral+gene+transfer&btnG=&as_sdt=1,37&as_sdtp=

Where in those papers does it discuss evidence of retroviruses taking transporting host genes from one species to another?

And this is exactly what you see with every single EVR - the point it was inserted into the genome and when it began being passed down through VGT. It scientists that claim they can track them down to where they were inserted. Why blame me for their claims?

They can also find pre-integration sites, and all of the flanking host DNA is the same. The only DNA that the retrovirus inserts is the retroviral DNA, not the DNA outside of the viral genome.

Oh please - 100,000 years from now that ERV will have 100,000 years of VGT behind it and you'll be claiming it's from Vertical Gene Transfer too, even if you can trace it to it's insertion point.

How couldn't we find the insertion point? It isn't that hard to do with modern methods. They found over 200,000 insertion points for retroviruses in the Human Genome Project.

 

[Ben West]

Dear Readers, I'm back even after AOL sold my SN to some Russian. Aman777/Ben West are one in the same.

The DNA and ERVs of the time between when the sons of God (prehistoric people) diverged from Chimps (6 million years ago) and when Noah arrived (some 10k years ago) were INHERITED by Noah's great grandsons. Gen 10:10 This is because there were NO other Humans for Noah's grandsons to marry. Like Cain, on Adam's Earth, they married and produced children with the sons of God (prehistoric people). Gen 6:1-4 The sons of God had been here for Millions of years BEFORE Noah arrived. We find their bones all over our world.

Today's Seven Billion Humans (descendants of Adam) have both the DNA and ERVs of the common ancestor of Apes in our Blood...AND...we also have the Unique Highest form of intelligence in Creation, like God's Gen 3:22 because Adam was First Made and Humans are destined to have dominion or rule in Heaven. Gen 1:28 Amen?

 

[Ben West]

Aman, in your scenario, where are the ERVs that would have been unique to humans from the billions of years between Adam and Noah? We should have hundreds of thousands of ERVs that we inherited from noahs family which chimps do not have.

I'm guessing your ad hoc explanation will be that there was disease in the biosphere, just not ERVs. And that is all your story is...a litany of ad hoc explanations to fit an assumed result. If this was the year 1800, nobody would have gleaned your story from the bible, spirit-filled or not, because there was no theory of evolution you had to work around.

There were NO Humans in existence, except Adam, for some 10 Billion years. Adam was made the 3rd Day Gen 2:4-7 and every other living creature was made on the 5th Day. Gen 1:21 Remember also that Adam was made in a perfect body, like Christians will have in Heaven, which was surrounded by a Shekinah Glory like that of Jesus. Adam could also fly just as Christians will fly into the clouds to meet Jesus when He returns. 1Th 4:17

The sons of God (prehistoric people), who evolved from the water were NOT Humans (descendants of Adam)...BUT...they could produce children with Adam's daughters as Gen 6:1-4 shows. Noah's grandsons married and produced today's Humans with the prehistoric people who were already here when Noah arrived. Gen 10:10 Below is an empirical historic record of the Arks arrival in the mountains of Ararat when Human civilization, on this Planet, began. Amen?

http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/map00-fc.html

 

[Loudmouth]

There were NO Humans in existence, except Adam, for some 10 Billion years. Adam was made the 3rd Day Gen 2:4-7 and every other living creature was made on the 5th Day. Gen 1:21 Remember also that Adam was made in a perfect body, like Christians will have in Heaven, which was surrounded by a Shekinah Glory like that of Jesus. Adam could also fly just as Christians will fly into the clouds to meet Jesus when He returns. 1Th 4:17

The sons of God (prehistoric people), who evolved from the water were NOT Humans (descendants of Adam)...BUT...they could produce children with Adam's daughters as Gen 6:1-4 shows. Noah's grandsons married and produced today's Humans with the prehistoric people who were already here when Noah arrived. Gen 10:10 Below is an empirical historic record of the Arks arrival in the mountains of Ararat when Human civilization, on this Planet, began. Amen?

http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/map00-fc.html

How does the ERV evidence back any of this up?

 

[Ben West]

How does the ERV evidence back any of this up?

The ERVs inside today's Humans were inherited from prehistoric people who were NOT Humans (Adam's descendants). It's the ONLY way to put the DNA and ERVs of the common ancestor of Apes into Humans, since Humans were made Billions of years before ANY other living creature. Gen 2:4-7 Amen?

 

[Loudmouth]

The ERVs inside today's Humans were inherited from prehistoric people who were NOT Humans (Adam's descendants). It's the ONLY way to put the DNA and ERVs of the common ancestor of Apes into Humans, since Humans were made Billions of years before ANY other living creature. Gen 2:4-7 Amen?

Where is the ERV evidence for your other claims? How does the ERV evidence show that there was a Noah or an Adam who lived billions of years ago?

 

[Ben West]

Where is the ERV evidence for your other claims? How does the ERV evidence show that there was a Noah or an Adam who lived billions of years ago?

It's inside your blood and shows your connection to the sons of God (prehistoric people) who lived on this Planet for Millions of years BEFORE Noah arrived and brought Adam's Human intelligence to our Planet of people who evolved from the common ancestor of Apes. DNA and ERVs are INHERITED exactly the SAME as your superior intelligence to ANY other creature which was INHERITED from another Human (descendant of Adam) because that's the ONLY way to put it inside your mind, or your bloodstream. You are a combination of BOTH.

Without Adam's unique intelligence, which is like God's Gen 3:22 we would still be chasing little animals for our next meal at the Cave, like we did for more than 99% of the time since prehistoric people diverged from Chimps, 6 Million years ago.

Below is a Map of where the Ark arrived and brought Human intelligence to Northern Mesopotamia, the Cradle of Human civilization on this Planet. Do you have any evidence to explain the SUDDEN emergence of Humanity some 10k years ago or less than 1% of the time since Homo sapiens were first detected on this Earth?

http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/map00-fc.html

 

[Loudmouth]

It's inside your blood and shows your connection to the sons of God (prehistoric people) who lived on this Planet for Millions of years BEFORE Noah arrived and brought Adam's Human intelligence to our Planet of people who evolved from the common ancestor of Apes. DNA and ERVs are INHERITED exactly the SAME as your superior intelligence to ANY other creature which was INHERITED from another Human (descendant of Adam) because that's the ONLY way to put it inside your mind, or your bloodstream. You are a combination of BOTH.

Without Adam's unique intelligence, which is like God's Gen 3:22 we would still be chasing little animals for our next meal at the Cave, like we did for more than 99% of the time since prehistoric people diverged from Chimps, 6 Million years ago.

Below is a Map of where the Ark arrived and brought Human intelligence to Northern Mesopotamia, the Cradle of Human civilization on this Planet. Do you have any evidence to explain the SUDDEN emergence of Humanity some 10k years ago or less than 1% of the time since Homo sapiens were first detected on this Earth?

http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/map00-fc.html

Where is the ERV evidence for these claims, being that ERV's are the topic.