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Thanks for responding - seeing what you were saying, it does make your previous comments on Catholicism and Orthodoxy (when saying you were a part of those groups/advocating for them) a bit suspect - if saying you were attending Unity Church ....there really was not an exposure to Jesus taught and proclaimed in the Gospels. One does not say they are committed to Christ - but then chooses to go into Buddhism quickly in order to relieve stress rather than seeing what Christ taught in dealing with stress through denying oneself/turning to Him in what he is about. I do think you should really consider just how much you actually understood Christianity from a Biblical and Historical perspective....
... icons in mosaic form are always noteworthy to me
Concerning the issue, I came across this one of late and I thought it was truly fascinating.
For a brief description:
Mahamrityunjaya Mantra
ॐ त्रिएक परमेश्वर यजामहे सुगन्धिंम् पुष्टिवर्धनम् ।
उर्वारुकमिव बन्धनान् मृत्योर्मुक्षीय मामृतात्
Prayer to the One who is Victorious over Death I worship the Three-in-One God who is fragrant and who nourishes and nurtures all beings. As a cucumber is freed from its bondage by the gardener, may He liberate me from bondage to death unto eternal life
Jesus sits upon a lotus flower, giving two mudras: His right hand showing the mudra of Abhaya, symbolizing protection, peace, benevolence, and dispelling of fear, while his left hand displays the Varada mudra, symbolizing ‘open-handed’ generosity such as charity or the granting of wishes. Wikipedia writes that "it is nearly always shown made with the left hand by a revered figure devoted to human salvation from greed, anger and delusion." Behind his head is a cross halo. Fiery bands emanate from him, like an aureola. Overall, I think it's a dynamic design, and I like the gold tones throughout, which reminds me of ancient Byzantine mosaics. One thing that I question, however, is the use of the Tilak or Bindi symbol on Jesus' forehead.
Frank Wesley rarely used this symbol in his paintings of Jesus, though he did in at least one (rather, he typically opted for painting Jesus' forehead in a golden hue to represent knowledge of God). Naomi Wray writes that "here it may represent a vertical third eye, the never-closing eye of the all-seeing God." She concludes that "This was not an image readily accepted by the Christian community" (Frank Wesley: Exploring Faith With a Brush, 34).
Interestingly, the Yeshu Satsang Toronto, a monthly Hindu-style worship service lead by Chris Hale (of Christian music group Aradhna) and his wife Miranda Stone, provides sandlewood paste for followers of Jesus "to apply to their foreheads in the form of a dot (tilak). This symbolizes that the person is a spiritual seeker, serious about the pursuit of God."
.............
It is because of the fact that differing cultures have their own forms that we must be sensitive whenever it comes to others seeking to promote the Gospel and yet doing so in ways that actually match their culture and reflect it wonderfully whenever it comes to seeing the example of how the Church did things.
For example, if seeing life within the Malankara Orthodox Church, There are Asharams, in the Christian Monastic tradition that have done stellar with regards to their use of icons to glorify the Lord while also keeping their culture in tact - with people who valued that and coming to mind being others like E.Stanley Jones - and it is so timely what they do. Here are some, for example, from others who are are Yeshu Bhakta (more on them here and here, here and here):
There are differing ways in which Buddhism has many things that can be learned as it concerns learning to walk sustainably with the world around you - although what I've seen consistently to be true is that this can be found and IS found within the Gospel of Christ Jesus and the Kingdom of God.
It truly is fascinating that some of the people who seem the least concerned for all of the fears arising on the planet and its mistreatment (Even though they have said it is a problem) would be the Buddhist Monks in the monasteries throughout Asia.
I really appreciate the Buddhist Monks and their mindsets - with them being very similar to the Desert Fathers in how introspective they are and disciplined, as well as aware of there being more to this life than this physical reality - something which has led to a lot of dialogues between Buddhists and Christians on differing levels.
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But with the Buddhists monks, it intrigues me to see how they seem to have accepted a finality on the entire issue with feeling that there are greater concerns that are to be held to - and Zen master Thich Nhat Hanh noted that "only love can save us from climate change." In his view, most people are not responding to the threat of global warming, despite overwhelming scientific evidence, because they are unable to save themselves from their own personal suffering - thus making themselves too burdened to worry about the battles impacting the Earth/Nature. Although he has outlined practical ways to address global warming before in his books (such as The World We Have: A Buddhist Approach to Peace and Ecology: Easyread Large and The Blooming of a Lotus: Revised Edition of the Classic Guided Meditation ), he has still been of the mindset that nothing is permanent and there needs to be a willingness to not hold so tightly to things. It amazes me that the man is one at great peace even as he predicts the possible collapse of civilisation within 100 years as a result of runaway climate change. - more in ECOBUDDHISM :: Only love can save us from climate change and ECOBUDDHISM :: BOOK - Contents, Overview, Excerpts
Through meditation and education and acts of love one person at a time, change is a gradual process. We see that today, in countries such as Thailand and Japan, many Buddhist monks are active in Green groups.. And we can see in places like Bhutan where there is immense security due to how others handle themselves - more noted in Water and Climate in the Himalayas and Buddhism and climate change | Sujato’s Blog
There have been cases of others standing in the way of aggressive destruction of the environment (like these Buddhist monks in Cambodia blessing trees which are about to be destroyed to make way for a banana plantation - with the orange cloth making them sacred and used in the hopes of deterring loggers from cutting them down.
But if things do not change, there's no sense in fear being promoted within that system.
I am reminded of where Pulitzer Prize-winning poet Gary Snyder wrote an essay called “Buddhism and the Coming Revolution"....detailing at one point the practice of Buddhist Anarchism (more in Buddhist Anarchism (Gary Snyder) and BUDDHISM AND THE COMING REVOLUTION by Gary Snyder | Arthur Magazine). Buddhist Anarchism is very similar in many ways with Anarcho Primitivism . And interestingly enough, Buddhist Anarchism praises Chaos as a harbinger of change...yet unlike more mainstream anarchists - they don't seem to bother creating their own institutions since Chaos will itself bring change. To others, from Chaos a better world would naturally emerge
For reference, one can go here or here in Paul Cudenec: The skilful means of anarcho-Buddhism and to Zen Anarchy (Max Cafard) | The Anarchist Library.
And for others:
That may be true, but it's sure hard to find in the church. The mystics find it. But those folks are mostly out on the fringes.
What I've found is that people saying it's hard to "find in the church" have rarely explored ALL of it - or seen what it is like in total at all points throughout its history since it was never just the mystics out in the middle of nowhere. There were numerous movements of people, both within the Church (4 walls) and outside of it on the mission field, that have lived it out and countless Saints who've spoken on it - from the Civil Rights era to the time of the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade, the Renaissance, the Middle Ages, etc. It always depends on where you're looking and what you've actually experienced...
I am aware of the background on things you've shared before, although I must say that your story has shifted a couple of times in ways that really do not seem consistent - especially after speaking on trying to defend the RC background when saying one was either investigating Orthodoxy or understood what it was growing up in it, as noted in 2013 in the following from you:
Seeing that you're not seeking to promote Shinran as the one to follow and Amida Buddha as the one to trust in, I'd sincerely suggest studying what Shinran actually taught since it is a big over-simplification to claim he taught salvation by faith. The nuance was very explicit when it came to salvation found in Amida Buddha by lifestyle and the salvation found in the compassion of Christ by trust in Him/his salvation of trusting in God.
Going to a Unity Church during the time you claimed to be either involved in Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy would be disingenious if you did not back to clarify fully to both groups on those forums where information was NOT being presented truly as what was occurring. It also tends to color any discussion on actually having real interest in studying what a group actually supports when several things are supported which the group would have checked immediately if seeing the Unity Church you attended which is far removed from either camp. There are multiple "average" Orthodox and Catholics - both here and in person - who have never come close to advocating what you have and the understanding you gave on the issues here/elsewhere really isn't knowing more about either Orthodoxy or Catholicism since some of those things are basic that it seems you're supposing others don't know.
Of course, we'll only be able to see once we're in heaven the full scope of history. Till then, we can know for certain that religions have always intersected - and for myself, being a believer in God/Christ, my view is that those following the Lord are impacted at every turn when it comes to the history of God's people....
In addition to that, for anyone from a theistic perspective wanting to have a basis for knowing how and where things may have merged, it's interesting examining the Abrahamic faith (beginning in Genesis 12 and Genesis 11 - continued from Genesis 4 from the era where men around the world simply called on the name of the Lord universally - global consciousness of Theism and belief in One God as the way) t....that is the root of many of the world religions and what sprung from them in their own spheres.
On the issue, I forgot to add earlier the ways that Abrahamic religions have been noted to have some common links between Hindu, Sikh and Buddhist beliefs which makes sense as they all arose in the East. Some of this is said in light of how I read long ago an interesting article that had me thinking - as its entitled "Is There A Connection Between Ancient Indian And Hebrew Language?". Some have made clear that in the eras where the Jews were scattered throughout various empires (i.e. the Persians, Greeks, Alexander the Great's Empire), that other cultures got clearly involved. Some say that the contact between Jews and Ancient India was mostly via Dilmun..and for more info, Bahrain has been inhabited since prehistoric times and several thousand burial mounds in the northern part of the main island probably date from the Sumerian Period of the 3rd millennium BC. It was the seat of ancient Dilmun -- a prosperous trading centre linking Sumer with the Indus Valley about 2000 BC. The archipelago was mentioned by Persian -- Greek -- Roman geographers and historians.
Something to consider...seeing how Jews in India have lived among the predominant Hindu and Muslim population for millennia (more shared here in Asian Jews and I like your Christ, I just don't like your Christians. But even outside of that, to see the way that there are common links and connections between groups is rather fascinating and it's something that should be kept in mind when studying the evolution of religions....some even noting that Christianity has had significant change in other places due to what Jesus may have learned in other times - like the speculation of his possibly travelling to the Eastern during His teen years and that being a dynamic that is a part of his similarities to things within Eastern Culture (#101 or here in #68 or here in #355 or #25 - and more discussed in #17 as well as elsewhere in The Jesus Sutras (Part 1): Introduction | The Jesus Question and Sutras | Search Results | The Jesus Question ).
And this all goes back to understanding the realities of how religions can be shaped and changed by the Diasporas of larger groups or single individuals, as was the case for many Jewish groups living within Indian culture (as others like Sonja Benjamin note well among others when seeing how intersections can impact everything from art to expression)
And even outside of that, there have been examples of such throughout history of what seemed to be Crypto-Christianity...though at some points, it seems to have been in reverse. And one of them that came to mind can be best described in an article I was able to find entitled Laputan Logic--St. Buddha of India . As said there (for an excerpt):
St. Buddha of IndiaIndeed, the story is accepted by Catholics -as seen in Barlaam and Josaphat/Catholic Encylopedia - and thus, it is rather fascinating to consider the parallels.
Posted 1698 days ago #
Seeing that we're on the subject of Christians masquerading as Buddhists, I thought I should mention that Siddhartha Gautama (563 - 483 BC), the founder of the Buddhist religion, is also a canonised saint of the Catholic church!
While the beatification and sanctification of the Lord Buddha didn't actually happen until the 16th century, the story of his early life was quite popular in Europe during the Middle Ages where he was Christianized under the name of Josaphat, the Indian prince.
The story goes a bit like this:
Once upon a time, in the land of India there lived a brave and powerful king by the name of Abenner. After many years of fretting about having no heir to the throne, he eventually had a son named Josaphat. At the time his son's birth the king was told by a Chaldean astrologer that the infant prince would one day grow up and become a Christian holy man and give up his throne. This news greatly upset the king who was obviously most reluctant to lose his crown prince to this new religion (one which had been making steady gains ever since the pioneering work of the apostle St. Thomas). He therefore ordered that the Christian faith be banned entirely from his kingdom and he locked the prince away in the palace, providing for him every luxury imaginable so he would grow up never having any desire to come into contact with the outside world.
When Josaphat reached adulthood he found the cosseted nature of his existence unbearable and so pleaded with his father to release him from his captivity and let him go outside the palace walls. The king, who could see that his son had grown into a handsome and intelligent young man, did not wish to see him suffer needlessly and so he eventually agreed to his request. The prince quickly learnt that while the world outside was indeed a very beautiful place it was also marred by much sorrow and suffering. Josaphat came into contact with a monk by the name of Barlaam, a hermit from Senaar, who explained to him the causes of this suffering and in very little time converted him to the Christian faith.
King Abenner was, of course, most upset about this turn of events and could see that the prophesy was so very close to being fulfilled. Nevertheless he continued to try to obstruct his son's path. In one instance he attempted to have his son seduced by one of his concubines. The temptress, who was the enslaved daughter of another king, came to Josaphat and appealed to his desire to save souls from eternal damnation. In fact she was receiving her coaching directly from Satan himself so she was well versed in scripture. She promised Josaphat that she would certainly convert to Christianity if only he would just sleep with her that night
"Let this also be thy pleasure, as thou wilt. But fulfil me one other small and trivial desire of mine, if thou art in very truth minded for to save my soul. Keep company with me this one night only, and grant me to revel in thy beauty, and do thou in turn take thy fill of my comeliness. And I give thee my word, that, with daybreak, I will become a Christian, and forsake all the worship of my gods. Not only shalt thou be pardoned for this dealing, but thou shalt receive recompense from thy God because of my salvation..."At first this greatly inflamed the young prince's passions but eventually he managed to bring them under control (probably after a cold shower) and he was then able to resolutely reject the beautiful lady's advances. Josaphat had defeated all temptation and remained pure and committed to his new faith. The story was eventually resolved by the King who then chose to become a Christian. After his death, Josaphat ruled the kingdom for a time though having no interest in earthly matters he abdicated the throne and spent the remainder of his days with the old monk Barlaam, living as a religious recluse.
Part XXX of Barlaam and Ioasaph by "John the Monk", translated into Greek possibly from a Georgian version sometime in the 11th century
Saint Josaphat preaching Christianity. 12th century Greek manuscript.
While many of the particulars of the story have changed to suit its new role as Christian hagiography, the story's Buddhist origins remain highly recognisable. Siddhartha Gautama was also a prince whose birth was accompanied with a prophecy that he would become a great holy man but not a king. He was also protected from the outside world by his father but on leaving the palace he also recognised that the world was full of suffering. He sought to pursue an ascetic life and to reach enlightenment but during this process he was subjected to many attempts to deflect him from this path. He was tempted by the demon Mara who sent his three beautiful daughters, Tanha (desire), Raga (lust), and Arati (aversion) to try to seduce him while he sat meditating under a banyan tree. After resisting these temptations, the prince attained Buddhahood at the age of thirty five.
While the exact process by which this story became adopted into Christian folklore is far from clear, it is thought that it travelled via a chain of adaptations, possibly via Manichaeism, where the Bodhisattva in Sanskrit became rendered as Bodhisav in Persian, then as Budhasaf in Arabic, Iodasaph in Georgian, Ioasaph in Greek and then finally Josaphat in Western Europe.
The Buddha being tempted by the daughters of Mara, detail from The Life of the Buddha, Maitreya's dhoti, Alchi Sumtseg in Ladakh.
It wasn't until the 19th century, when the Buddhist scriptures finally began to be translated into European languages, that the connection between the two stories was noticed. Without any historical evidence to prove the independent existence of St. Josaphat, the Buddhist origin of the story is now generally accepted by Catholics.
However, despite rumours to the contrary, St. Josaphat remains to this day a recognised saint in the Catholic Church and he retains his place in the Roman Martyrology, a catalogue of martyrs and saints arranged as a calendar. Each day in the Martyrology provides the reader with edifying stories of various saints who may be optionally commemorated on that particular day.
The story of St. Josaphat aka the Lord Buddha is still commemorated on the 27th of November.
It really would be a bit inconsequential to discuss what is or isn't "fair" when it comes to consistency - as representation is always a key factor and there has been a consistent practice based on previous comments of saying one is one thing when in truth they were never practicing that as the actual system claimed and as they mentioned. Thus, unless one was actually willing to go back/clarify to others that the previous claims done but 2 YEARS ago (despite saying "Well things have been happening with 6yrs") and thus meaning one never gave a real picture, it leaves the impression that one does hop around rather than stay consistent. No one claims to know more than the average Orthodox or Catholic or Evangelical and then advocate for things which even the average Orthodox or Catholic knows are basics to the faith (i.e. God as a PERSONAL being to be related to is true, Jesus is the way to Salvation rather than a mere way or teacher, etc.). No one says they were learning from an Orthodox priest approving of their invesigation and background in RCwhen Orthodox priests KNOW that you don't advocate for what Unity CHurch advocates or proclaim Buddhism as the way to go simultaneously - such actions would be grounds for immediate dismissal.
Already noted that earlier, as you already skipped over/left unadddressed when you avoided the following:
As it concerns Pure Land Buddhism, it was noted earlier the ways that Pure Land Buddhism was influenced by CHRISTIANITY earlier in one of the postings I gave - as well as recent - if going back to review what was shared in A Christian Critique of Pure Land Buddhism by John B .
There are many intersections on the issue, more seen in A Trinitarian Theology of Religions: An Evangelical Proposal ...
Additionally, as it concerns how Buddhism in differing ways was both influenced and rooted in Christianity at key points, some of this was brought up before elsewhere - as seen here:
On the issue, I forgot to add earlier the ways that Abrahamic religions have been noted to have some common links between Hindu, Sikh and Buddhist beliefs which makes sense as they all arose in the East. Some of this is said in light of how I read long ago an interesting article that had me thinking - as its entitled "Is There A Connection Between Ancient Indian And Hebrew Language?". Some have made clear that in the eras where the Jews were scattered throughout various empires (i.e. the Persians, Greeks, Alexander the Great's Empire), that other cultures got clearly involved. Some say that the contact between Jews and Ancient India was mostly via Dilmun..and for more info, Bahrain has been inhabited since prehistoric times and several thousand burial mounds in the northern part of the main island probably date from the Sumerian Period of the 3rd millennium BC. It was the seat of ancient Dilmun -- a prosperous trading centre linking Sumer with the Indus Valley about 2000 BC. The archipelago was mentioned by Persian -- Greek -- Roman geographers and historians.
Something to consider...seeing how Jews in India have lived among the predominant Hindu and Muslim population for millennia (more shared here in Asian Jews and I like your Christ, I just don't like your Christians. But even outside of that, to see the way that there are common links and connections between groups is rather fascinating and it's something that should be kept in mind when studying the evolution of religions....some even noting that Christianity has had significant change in other places due to what Jesus may have learned in other times - like the speculation of his possibly travelling to the Eastern during His teen years and that being a dynamic that is a part of his similarities to things within Eastern Culture (#101 or here in #68 or here in #355 or #25 - and more discussed in #17 as well as elsewhere in The Jesus Sutras (Part 1): Introduction | The Jesus Question and Sutras | Search Results | The Jesus Question ).
And this all goes back to understanding the realities of how religions can be shaped and changed by the Diasporas of larger groups or single individuals, as was the case for many Jewish groups living within Indian culture (as others like Sonja Benjamin note well among others when seeing how intersections can impact everything from art to expression)
And even outside of that, there have been examples of such throughout history of what seemed to be Crypto-Christianity...though at some points, it seems to have been in reverse. And one of them that came to mind can be best described in an article I was able to find entitled Laputan Logic--St. Buddha of India . As said there (for an excerpt):
St. Buddha of IndiaIndeed, the story is accepted by Catholics -as seen in Barlaam and Josaphat/Catholic Encylopedia - and thus, it is rather fascinating to consider the parallels.
Posted 1698 days ago #
Seeing that we're on the subject of Christians masquerading as Buddhists, I thought I should mention that Siddhartha Gautama (563 - 483 BC), the founder of the Buddhist religion, is also a canonised saint of the Catholic church!
While the beatification and sanctification of the Lord Buddha didn't actually happen until the 16th century, the story of his early life was quite popular in Europe during the Middle Ages where he was Christianized under the name of Josaphat, the Indian prince.
The story goes a bit like this:
Once upon a time, in the land of India there lived a brave and powerful king by the name of Abenner. After many years of fretting about having no heir to the throne, he eventually had a son named Josaphat. At the time his son's birth the king was told by a Chaldean astrologer that the infant prince would one day grow up and become a Christian holy man and give up his throne. This news greatly upset the king who was obviously most reluctant to lose his crown prince to this new religion (one which had been making steady gains ever since the pioneering work of the apostle St. Thomas). He therefore ordered that the Christian faith be banned entirely from his kingdom and he locked the prince away in the palace, providing for him every luxury imaginable so he would grow up never having any desire to come into contact with the outside world.
When Josaphat reached adulthood he found the cosseted nature of his existence unbearable and so pleaded with his father to release him from his captivity and let him go outside the palace walls. The king, who could see that his son had grown into a handsome and intelligent young man, did not wish to see him suffer needlessly and so he eventually agreed to his request. The prince quickly learnt that while the world outside was indeed a very beautiful place it was also marred by much sorrow and suffering. Josaphat came into contact with a monk by the name of Barlaam, a hermit from Senaar, who explained to him the causes of this suffering and in very little time converted him to the Christian faith.
King Abenner was, of course, most upset about this turn of events and could see that the prophesy was so very close to being fulfilled. Nevertheless he continued to try to obstruct his son's path. In one instance he attempted to have his son seduced by one of his concubines. The temptress, who was the enslaved daughter of another king, came to Josaphat and appealed to his desire to save souls from eternal damnation. In fact she was receiving her coaching directly from Satan himself so she was well versed in scripture. She promised Josaphat that she would certainly convert to Christianity if only he would just sleep with her that night
"Let this also be thy pleasure, as thou wilt. But fulfil me one other small and trivial desire of mine, if thou art in very truth minded for to save my soul. Keep company with me this one night only, and grant me to revel in thy beauty, and do thou in turn take thy fill of my comeliness. And I give thee my word, that, with daybreak, I will become a Christian, and forsake all the worship of my gods. Not only shalt thou be pardoned for this dealing, but thou shalt receive recompense from thy God because of my salvation..."At first this greatly inflamed the young prince's passions but eventually he managed to bring them under control (probably after a cold shower) and he was then able to resolutely reject the beautiful lady's advances. Josaphat had defeated all temptation and remained pure and committed to his new faith. The story was eventually resolved by the King who then chose to become a Christian. After his death, Josaphat ruled the kingdom for a time though having no interest in earthly matters he abdicated the throne and spent the remainder of his days with the old monk Barlaam, living as a religious recluse.
Part XXX of Barlaam and Ioasaph by "John the Monk", translated into Greek possibly from a Georgian version sometime in the 11th century
Saint Josaphat preaching Christianity. 12th century Greek manuscript.
While many of the particulars of the story have changed to suit its new role as Christian hagiography, the story's Buddhist origins remain highly recognisable. Siddhartha Gautama was also a prince whose birth was accompanied with a prophecy that he would become a great holy man but not a king. He was also protected from the outside world by his father but on leaving the palace he also recognised that the world was full of suffering. He sought to pursue an ascetic life and to reach enlightenment but during this process he was subjected to many attempts to deflect him from this path. He was tempted by the demon Mara who sent his three beautiful daughters, Tanha (desire), Raga (lust), and Arati (aversion) to try to seduce him while he sat meditating under a banyan tree. After resisting these temptations, the prince attained Buddhahood at the age of thirty five.
While the exact process by which this story became adopted into Christian folklore is far from clear, it is thought that it travelled via a chain of adaptations, possibly via Manichaeism, where the Bodhisattva in Sanskrit became rendered as Bodhisav in Persian, then as Budhasaf in Arabic, Iodasaph in Georgian, Ioasaph in Greek and then finally Josaphat in Western Europe.
The Buddha being tempted by the daughters of Mara, detail from The Life of the Buddha, Maitreya's dhoti, Alchi Sumtseg in Ladakh.
It wasn't until the 19th century, when the Buddhist scriptures finally began to be translated into European languages, that the connection between the two stories was noticed. Without any historical evidence to prove the independent existence of St. Josaphat, the Buddhist origin of the story is now generally accepted by Catholics.
However, despite rumours to the contrary, St. Josaphat remains to this day a recognised saint in the Catholic Church and he retains his place in the Roman Martyrology, a catalogue of martyrs and saints arranged as a calendar. Each day in the Martyrology provides the reader with edifying stories of various saints who may be optionally commemorated on that particular day.
The story of St. Josaphat aka the Lord Buddha is still commemorated on the 27th of November.
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