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Buddhism: Neither Theistic nor Atheistic

Jane_the_Bane

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Actually, in the West, millions of dollars have been made selling books and offering meditation classes specifically for people looking for a secular approach to Buddhism. Are you aware of this or not? What you are saying is not true when it comes to the success of secular Buddhism.

Well, here's the thing: I do not believe in doctrinal "purity". Ideas need to interact with and influence each other in order to grow properly. What the champions of dogma and traditionalism are promoting is essentially a form of mental incest - with pretty much the same kind of symptoms that you see in its biological equivalent.

Please tell me what you know about Pure Land Buddhism and then please tell me what your primary sources are. I would really appreciate it. What you are saying is clearly a misrepresentation of what Pure Land Buddhists believe and why they believe it.
I know that "Pure Land" Buddhism is faith-based, similar to exoteric Christianity.
 
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Yoder777

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In order to gain a better understanding of what Pure Land Buddhism is really all about, please consider the following:

This post is an attempt to explain the Jodo Shinshu approach to Amida Buddha. I’ve mentioned this before in passing, but a debate recently came up on E-sangha about Amida Buddha in Jodo Shinshu Buddhism when someone cited a helpful article by Dr. Haneda. I’ll let you read the article for yourself, but to me, two things stood out:

  1. By focusing on Amida not the historical Buddha, it gets people out of the trap of “did the Buddha really say this?” or arguments about which sutras are historically accurate or not. According to Dr. Haneda, this is what the Mahayana Buddhists tried to do in writing new sutras: break the trend toward dogma and ossification.
  2. Dr. Haneda views Amida as a timeless, idealization of Shakyamuni Buddha the founder. It’s interesting to note that in the Larger Sutra of Immeasurable Life, the beginning describes the process where a Bodhisattva becomes a Buddha, and this process mirrors the life of Shakyamuni Buddha perfectly. I don’t think this is an accident.
Again, notice in the Buddhist texts that Amida is described as being:
  • Very compassionate as the Pure Land path is available to all.
  • The wisest of all Buddhas, hence the symbolism of infinite light.
  • The true eternal Buddha, hence the symbolism of infinite lifespan. Near identical to Shakyamuni of the Lotus Sutra.
  • Endlessly striving to save all beings. Note the descriptions of how Amida strove and strove endlessly to master various practices, and create the Pure Land.
These are all the same traits that Shakyamuni Buddha had, but in a more timeless quality. So when Jodo Shinshu Buddhist recite the nembutsu, or “hail Amida Buddha”, they are actually praising the real Buddha, not some made-up fantasy. We praise the Buddha and all the wonderful Dharma teachings that he embodies. This simple act of devotion has a great sense of humility, and also appreciation for the Dharma. When people stop appreciating the Dharma, stop appreciating the Buddha, then Buddhism becomes dead and tired for them.

I think this is why Dr. Haneda speaks of “dynamic” Buddhism. We develop a living relationship with the Buddha and the teachings that sustains us during good times and bad.
http://jkllr.net/2008/09/03/amida-the-buddha-of-unhindered-light/

It's also worth mentioning that the life stories of Gautama Buddha and Amitabha are almost identical, both are men of royalty and wealth who renounced their worldly pleasures and prestige for the sake of bringing all beings to salvation.
 
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Yoder777

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Well, here's the thing: I do not believe in doctrinal "purity". Ideas need to interact with and influence each other in order to grow properly. What the champions of dogma and traditionalism are promoting is essentially a form of mental incest - with pretty much the same kind of symptoms that you see in its biological equivalent.


I know that "Pure Land" Buddhism is faith-based, similar to exoteric Christianity.

Everything you are saying reflects a serious misunderstanding of what Pure Land Buddhism, and especially Japanese Jodo Shinshu Buddhism, actually teaches:

As Bloom describes it, Shinran’s “Pure Land teaching is an inclusive, human faith. It is non-authoritarian, non-dogmatic, egalitarian, non-superstitious religious faith. Through deepening religious understanding it liberates people from religious intimidation and oppression, which trade on the ignorance of people and their desire for security. Shinran’s teaching does not encourage blind faith at the expense of one’s reason and understanding.”

To counter common misconceptions of the Pure Land tradition, particularly among Western convert Buddhists, Bloom takes care to point out Shinran’s vigorous opposition to superstition and ignorance. Pure Land Buddhism has some superficial similarities to monotheism, which sometimes leads to ill-informed characterizations of Jodo Shinshu and related traditions by disgruntled ex-Christians. However, any similarities between Pure Land and Christianity are far fewer than overlaps between Vajrayana and Hinduism, for example, or Zen Buddhism and Confucianism. If anything, we could say that Pure Land takes advantage of the strengths of a rather Unitarian quasi-monotheistic religious approach but does so within a context of Buddhist insight into emptiness and liberation.

By Shinran’s time the vast pantheon of Mahayana Buddhism had multiplied to the point where there was a Buddha or spirit under virtually every stone, all demanding veneration through prayer, ritual, and (sometimes expensive) offerings and ceremonies. Pure Land’s focus on Amida Buddha—a single figure representing wisdom, compassion, and nirvana—was a way of cutting through the pomp and superstition surrounding Japanese Buddhism and returning to core principles, while at the same time maintaining a devotional practice for ordinary laypeople who couldn’t hope to meditate at length or adhere to hundreds of monastic precepts. In The Essential Shinran, Bloom elucidates the thoroughly Mahayana Buddhist foundation of Shinran’s ideas about reliance on Amida Buddha:

Though this teaching may appear similar to ideas in Western religion, there is a world of difference resulting from its root in Mahayana Buddhist philosophy. Mahayana teaching distinguishes between conventional thought and belief and the truth of the absolute realm. The level of conventional thought denotes thinking based on naive realism and objectivity. Such knowledge informs our egocentrism and perpetuates our ignorance of our true nature and of the world. The absolute truth, while inconceivable and inexpressible, exposes the unreality and distortions created by our delusory, self-centered knowledge and interests. The Mahayana perspective on religion rejects the literalism, dogmatism, objectivism, and moralism found in many religious traditions. Mahayana Buddhism recognizes that all people are at different stages of spiritual development and affirms people as they are. It is a more accepting, compassionate teaching.

THE DIALECTIC between truth in its ultimate nature and in its form adapted to our current capacities is the engine that drove Shinran’s quest for an authentic Buddhist spirituality available to everyone, not just monks and members of the elite. This distinction between absolute and conventional truth appears in his core teachings, as numerous passages of The Essential Shinran demonstrate. For example, Shinran wrote: “Supreme Buddha is formless, and because of being formless is called jinen (naturalness). Buddha, when appearing with form, is not called supreme nirvana. In order to make it known that supreme Buddha is formless (emptiness), the name Amida Buddha is expressly used; so I have been taught.” Shinran and his school understand Amida to be a symbol for the Buddha-nature that all beings are universally endowed with. Because Amida’s light embraces all beings and never abandons anyone, all creatures without exception will be liberated from suffering and ignorance.
http://www.tricycle.com/reviews/essential-and-pure

Please cease and desist making blanket statements mischaracterizing what millions of Buddhists actually believe and practice. It is clear that you don't yet know what you are talking about, but I would be happy to answer basic questions to help your understanding. I don't claim to be more enlightened or moral of a person, but I can answer basic questions.
 
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Yoder777

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Please keep in mind that it's only because I love the Buddha so much and I am thankful for what he did for us that I am willing to defend Buddhism from mischaracterizations that might prevent people from seeing the true light of Buddhism. Sure, there are more secular schools of Buddhism, but they should in no way be claimed as the exclusively legitimate way to practice Buddhism. That would be unfair to a majority of the world's Buddhists, who love the Buddha very much and live to follow his example.
 
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Please keep in mind that it's only because I love the Buddha so much and I am thankful for what he did for us that I am willing to defend Buddhism from mischaracterizations that might prevent people from seeing the true light of Buddhism.

Okay, noted.

Sure, there are more secular schools of Buddhism, but they should in no way be claimed as the exclusively legitimate way to practice Buddhism.

I don't see why one would be obligated to hold that view.

That would be unfair to a majority of the world's Buddhists, who love the Buddha very much and live to follow his example.

Unfairness has nothing to do with truth or falsity.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Yoder777

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Shinran, the founder of Jodo Shinshu, the largest sect of Buddhism in Japan, never claimed to be a master over his students, instead referring to himself as a fellow student of the Buddha. Shinran gave up the austere life of a monk in order to marry, have children, and experience the life of the common people. Unlike the false gurus of today, he never wanted to be the object of devotion.

http://www.tricycle.com/blog/beware-charismatic-guru

By learning about the life and teachings of Shinran, you will learn about the true heart of Buddhism.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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What if I told you that the universe has always existed in some form, so there's no need for a Creator, and that there's a natural law of cause and effect, so there's no need for a Judge who rewards and punishes?

What if I then told you that, instead of a God as we understand the term, there is a compassionate essence to the universe that is within each and every human being, and It is our true nature waiting to be born?

Buddhists pray to and take refuge in various Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, but they are understood to be awakened human beings, and that, by taking refuge in them, we will also be led to our own awakening.

It's a common misconception that all Buddhists are atheists, which seems to be perpetuated by Western secularists who insist on projecting their understanding of Buddhism onto all Buddhists and by Theravada Buddhists who insist that their way is the only legitimate way to live the Dharma.

If you called a Mahayana Buddhist who's taken a Bodhisattva Vow, believes the Dalai Lama to be the 14th incarnation of Avalokiteśvara, and who prays to Amitabha, the Buddha of Infinite Light and Life, an atheist, would that really make sense in the way someone like Richard Dawkins would use the term?

I'd say that what you're saying is a lie from Satan himself and that you need to find Jesus who is the only Way, the Truth, and the Life. There is no salvation outside of Christ. I'll keep you in my prayers.
 
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ananda

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I find it interesting how the sutra gives a ten minute advertisement for this heavenly place, treating it something like a luxurious health resort. Something similar happens in the Biblical book of Revelation:

The material of the wall was jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. The foundation stones of the city wall were adorned with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation stone was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald; the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprase; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst. And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the gates was a single pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.
-- Revelation 21:18-21

It seems that gemstones have a way of impressing people.

eudaimonia,


Mark
The historical Buddha recognized that detachment from such frivolities leads to greater bliss and peace (I've verified this through my own practice of minimalism) ... so religions which extol such lavish treasures as promises to devotees are laughable, ot me.
 
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Yoder777

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The historical Buddha recognized that detachment from such frivolities leads to greater bliss and peace (I've verified this through my own practice of minimalism) ... so religions which extol such lavish treasures as promises to devotees are laughable, ot me.

Could the members of this forum please refrain from making offensive mischaracterizations of what Buddhists actually believe? The Pure Land sutras are using words that humans can understand in order to describe a higher reality beyond all human description. I've already explained several times that the Pure Land is a visual way of describing Nirvana.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Could the members of this forum please refrain from making offensive mischaracterizations of what Buddhists actually believe? The Pure Land sutras are using words that humans can undersand in order to describe a higher reality beyond all human description. I've already explained seveal times that the Pure Land is a visual way of describing Nirvana.
This "visual way of describing Nirvana" resembles other forms of fanciful wish-fulfilment, such as the muslim conception of heaven, medieval legends of Cockaigne, or other depictions of splendour and unlimited luxury.
Given that Nirvana is supposed to be the cessation of rebirth, an escape from the cycle of karma, and a final realization that there is no "self" to be reborn to begin with, such depictions strike me as more than a little counter-productive.

They sound a lot more like a mass-compatible, watered-down version of what Buddhism actually had to say.
 
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ananda

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Could the members of this forum please refrain from making offensive mischaracterizations of what Buddhists actually believe? The Pure Land sutras are using words that humans can understand in order to describe a higher reality beyond all human description. I've already explained several times that the Pure Land is a visual way of describing Nirvana.
I am a practicing early Buddhist, so I speak from experience and in terms of the earliest strata of Buddhism. I don't believe I am mischaracterizing this type of Buddhism. The historical Buddha is recorded as saying that nibbana is indescribable. The one who attains nibbana "goes to an end that cannot be classified ... One who has reached the end has no criterion ... When all phenomena are done away with, all means of speaking are done away with as well." - Upasiva-manava-puccha (Sn 5.6)

No offense is meant towards your understanding of Mahayana Buddhism. :oldthumbsup:
 
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Yoder777

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I am a practicing early Buddhist...

Fair enough. Who is your teacher and where is your sangha? Even a Theravada Buddhist understands the difference between literal and metaphorical language. I already stated that ultimate Nirvana is indescribable. Pure Land Buddhism, however, in being a school of Buddhism for the common person rather than just for monks and sages, speaks of Nirvana in word symbols that the common person can understand.

Referring to the same reality of Oneness, the difference between the terms, Nirvana and Pure Land is the following. The term Nirvana denotes the same transcendent realm but is unusually understood using negative words like unborn, uncreated, deathless, imperishable, formless, colorless, etc. On the other hand, the Pure Land is a more practical and concrete way to understand and explain that which is incomprehensible. It describes the same transcendent reality using tangible metaphors so that ordinary people can understand and appreciate it. Below is an example of a description of the Pure Land taken from the Smaller Sutra, Chapter 3.

“In the ponds are lotuses as large as chariot-wheels -- the blue ones radiating a blue light, the yellow a yellow light, the red a red light and the white ones a white light. They are marvelous and beautiful, fragrant and pure…”

Here, the sutra explains reality-as-it-is, using beautifully poetic words such as, “blue ones radiating a blue light, the yellow a yellow light…” This symbolic language gives a handle to what is the non-conceptual ultimate dimension, and also points to how the awakened mind sees the ultimate dimension shining through the forms of the ordinary world. A famous Zen master once answered a question on what is Zen by saying, ‘when I walk, I just walk, when I sit, I just sit, when I eat, I just eat.’ This answer is quite similar to the above description taken from the Smaller Sutra. Another Buddhist teacher, Ichitaro, also spiritualized everyday objects when he wrote, “The Land of Bliss is found everywhere. On a vegetable leaf. On a blade of grass, On a sardine. Without saying it is good or bad, if you sense the working of Amida in and on each thing, this is the truth…”
http://buddhistfaith.tripod.com/beliefs/id11.html

Of course, the Buddha himself was very aware of the many different forms and levels of human understanding, and he was therefore more than willing to see the nuance in things to meet people where they're at, all for the sake of reaching a common understanding of the higher truth beyond all human interpretations and conceptualizations.
 
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Yoder777

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For now on, I am ignoring posts that reflect a deliberate inability or unwillingness to understand what Pure Land Buddhists, and what Mahayana Buddhists in general, believe and why they believe it.

It's one thing to disagree with a belief, and quite another to make a straw man of it out of your own willful ignorance. It is not my job to convert people, but I am willing and happy to answer honest questions of what Pure Land Buddhists believe and why they believe it.

I don't claim to be a more moral or enlightened person, but I have my limits.
 
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ananda

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Fair enough. Who is your teacher and where is your sangha?
My Teacher: "For that which I have proclaimed and made known as the Dhamma and the Vinaya, that shall be your Teacher when I am gone" (Mahaparinibbana sutta) ... my Sangha is generally the Kammatthana tradition.

Even a Theravada Buddhist understands the difference between literal and metaphorical language. I already stated that ultimate Nirvana is indescribable. Pure Land Buddhism, however, in being a school of Buddhism for the common person rather than just for monks and sages, speaks of Nirvana in word symbols that the common person can understand. Of course, the Buddha himself was very aware of the many different forms and levels of human understanding, and he was therefore more than willing to see the nuance in things to meet people where they're at, all for the sake of reaching a common understanding of the higher truth beyond all human interpretations and conceptualizations.
I thought the descriptions were of the Pure Land, and not of nirvana?
 
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Yoder777

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The benefit of seeing the Pure Land as symbolic of Nirvana and Amida as symbolic of the historical Buddha in his enlightened state is that we emphasize our commonality with all other Buddhists.

At the same time, the crucial difference still remains, that we humbly depend on the Other-Power of the Buddha, instead of on our own efforts and merits. In this sense, we take letting go of your ego and taking refuge in the Buddha to its logical conclusion.

Living the Dharma as a path to peace remains important, but we can be freed from the anxiety of having to rely solely on our own efforts through trusting in Amida Buddha.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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At the same time, the crucial difference still remains, that we humbly depend on the Other-Power of the Buddha, instead of on our own efforts and merits. In this sense, we take letting go of your ego and taking refuge in the Buddha to its logical conclusion.

Living the Dharma as a path to peace remains important, but we can be freed from the anxiety of having to rely solely on our own efforts through trusting in Amida Buddha.

And how is this NOT what I described earlier, when you grew flustered and claimed I was pushing a straw man around?
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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BTW, identifying so strongly with an ideology that criticism aimed at the same feels like a personal insult strikes me as
a) indicative on an unhealthy mindset that prevents growth rather than promoting it, and
b) very un-Buddhist in and of itself, lacking the sort of detachment and non-identification that lies at its core.
 
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Fair enough. Who is your teacher and where is your sangha? Even a Theravada Buddhist understands the difference between literal and metaphorical language. I already stated that ultimate Nirvana is indescribable. Pure Land Buddhism, however, in being a school of Buddhism for the common person rather than just for monks and sages, speaks of Nirvana in word symbols that the common person can understand.

A common person hearing promises of "streets of gold" would think that there is actually a place with streets of gold, or so I would guess.

What I wonder is if the esoteric meanings (whatever deeper meanings one can get from streets of gold) were intended for the monastics to ponder, and that the lay persons were permitted to be enticed by thoughts of streets of gold if that is the level of awareness that they exist on.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Pure Land Buddhism, however, in being a school of Buddhism for the common person rather than just for monks and sages, speaks of Nirvana in word symbols that the common person can understand.
Maybe I'm just too much of an intellectual elitist, then.
I'd say that if you start by pointing out that the genuinely transcendent defies the self-referential categories of language, you CANNOT end up by describing it in terms of worldly splendour. It's self-defeating, even if it's more accessible to the "common people".
Dumbing down isn't helpful. It's a crutch at best, and more likely a hobble that prevents further insight.
 
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Yoder777

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A common person hearing promises of "streets of gold" would think that there is actually a place with streets of gold, or so I would guess.

What I wonder is if the esoteric meanings (whatever deeper meanings one can get from streets of gold) were intended for the monastics to ponder, and that the lay persons were permitted to be enticed by thoughts of streets of gold if that is the level of awareness that they exist on.


eudaimonia,

Mark

That's a very good question, and it goes back to the Buddha's doctrine of expedient means. Could you please tell me if you are familiar with it?
 
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