What's so bad about the Book of Mormon?

[Ironhold]

I'm just full of trivia. Camelids got their start in America as well, and traveled to Asia 2 or 3 centuries ago.

Back around 2013, apologist Jeff Lindsay took a look at the issue of horses.

Based on the research he uncovered, it's fair to say that the issue is far more complicated than previously thought. We have a lot of OOPARTS clogging things up, but even if one excludes them there is still evidence to suggest that horses survived longer in the new world than previously believed.

 

[MehGuy]

The "endless celestial sex" bit is a fabrication created by J. Edward Decker, a critic of the church.

Decker had been a member at one point, but faced excommunication for serial adultery; his first wife divorced him for the same reason. At some point later he wound up following his latest lady into her Protestant congregation, at which point he began making himself available as a speaker for those people who wanted material to trash the church with. "Sex" has come up quite a bit in his works, such that one could be forgiven for wondering if he has a fixation on the topic.

Fair enough. I've heard from ex-mormons who are now atheist claim that there are many misconceptions about mormonism. These are people who are bitter about their previous faith, so I'd be more apt to believe them.

 

[Ironhold]

Fair enough. I've heard from ex-mormons who are now atheist claim that there are many misconceptions about mormonism. These are people who are bitter about their previous faith, so I'd be more apt to believe them.

A lot of individuals within the counter-cult movement base their claims on their having supposedly been members of the organizations that they're debunking.

In some instances, they never were members of those organizations. For example, Alberto Rivera claimed to have been a Jesuit, but the paperwork he displayed as "proof" of this was later determined to have been fraudulently obtained; in fact, Rivera had an extensive criminal record for fraudulent acts, such that he was wanted by law enforcement officials in two countries.

In other instances, they were members, but their claims concerning their period of membership and their reason for leaving are exaggerated at best and false at worst. Such is the case of Decker, who claims to have been "saved" into Protestantism but who was actually facing down excommunication.

This raises significant questions as to what their motivations are for their activities within the counter-cult movement, especially since these individuals are usually found to be lying about other items as well.

 

[smaneck]

Back around 2013, apologist Jeff Lindsay took a look at the issue of horses.

Based on the research he uncovered, it's fair to say that the issue is far more complicated than previously thought. We have a lot of OOPARTS clogging things up, but even if one excludes them there is still evidence to suggest that horses survived longer in the new world than previously believed.

I gave a relatively late date for this disappearance of the horse, roughly 7500 years ago. But tell me, to Mormons believe anyone got to America via Beringia? Or are they all supposed to be from the Near East?

 

[Ironhold]

I gave a relatively late date for this disappearance of the horse, roughly 7500 years ago. But tell me, to Mormons believe anyone got to America via Beringia? Or are they all supposed to be from the Near East?

This presumes that the horses being referenced were horses, and that the term simply wasn't slapped on an indigenous species of some sort.

 

[smaneck]

This presumes that the horses being referenced were horses, and that the term simply wasn't slapped on an indigenous species of some sort.

That's a problem because the only large mammal ever domesticated in the Americas was the llama.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

The "he simply translated it with something he knew"-argument is really a desperate grasping for straws, IMO.

Not that it's not something you see in relation to other supposedly "holy" texts, mind you, but still...

 

[mmksparbud]

The "he simply translated it with something he knew"-argument is really a desperate grasping for straws, IMO.

Not that it's not something you see in relation to other supposedly "holy" texts, mind you, but still...

Considering "what he knew" the very best, was the English spoken at the time in the area where he grew up. Having not read the bible until he was around 18, he had not had the time yet for biblical English to really be his best known language.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Considering "what he knew" the very best, was the English spoken at the time in the area where he grew up. Having not read the bible until he was around 18, he had not had the time yet for biblical English to really be his best known language.

In that case, NOT trying to imitate King James English might have been the way to go, no?
The way I see it, he wanted to give his book the nimbus of holiness and authority by copying the style of the most familiar Bible translation of his day, but simply wasn't up to the task, making his attempt more than a little obvious.

 

[RhaegarTargaryen]

Eden in Missouri---Is that not a glaring, neon, flashing red signal that somebody has their facts a tiny bit off?? How can anything they said be taken seriously with statements like that?---For crying out load---when somebody tells a joke, don't get mad at the audience for at the very minimum, chuckling.

#Truth

Though actually quite rich coming from an SDA.

 

[Ironhold]

The "he simply translated it with something he knew"-argument is really a desperate grasping for straws, IMO.

Not that it's not something you see in relation to other supposedly "holy" texts, mind you, but still...

Ever do translation work?

It's not the exact science people want to think it is. Even under a best-case scenario, you'll likely see concepts, words, and the like which don't translate cleanly between certain languages. This leaves translators in a bind, as they've got to figure out what to do.

Your worst translators will generally attempt a literal translation, producing a work that is technically correct but potentially incoherent due to issues with grammar, missed cultural cues, and what not.

On the other hand, good translators will usually be mature enough to realize that something has to give and will make it a point to localize the translation so that the grammar, cultural cues, and whatnot will make sense. This can sometimes involve taking words & concepts that don't quite mesh and substituting in things that do.

(Middling translators, meanwhile, insist on referring to rice cakes as jelly doughnuts.)

 

[LoAmmi]

Ever do translation work?

It's not the exact science people want to think it is. Even under a best-case scenario, you'll likely see concepts, words, and the like which don't translate cleanly between certain languages. This leaves translators in a bind, as they've got to figure out what to do.

Your worst translators will generally attempt a literal translation, producing a work that is technically correct but potentially incoherent due to issues with grammar, missed cultural cues, and what not.

On the other hand, good translators will usually be mature enough to realize that something has to give and will make it a point to localize the translation so that the grammar, cultural cues, and whatnot will make sense. This can sometimes involve taking words & concepts that don't quite mesh and substituting in things that do.

(Middling translators, meanwhile, insist on referring to rice cakes as jelly doughnuts.)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the claim that he received divine assistance in the translation? If that's the case, shouldn't any translation done that way be essentially perfect, with all the concepts, words, and the like being completely clean?

 

[Ironhold]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the claim that he received divine assistance in the translation? If that's the case, shouldn't any translation done that way be essentially perfect, with all the concepts, words, and the like being completely clean?

Not with all of the complexities involved.

We're talking Hebrew => English via hybridized characters that contain words or phrases with no modern counterparts.

 

[LoAmmi]

Not with all of the complexities involved.

We're talking Hebrew => English via hybridized characters that contain words or phrases with no modern counterparts.

We're talking about the creator of the Universe who could rephrase any part perfectly into English... also wasn't it some form of Egyptian not Hebrew? I hear lots of stuff.

 

[Ironhold]

We're talking about the creator of the Universe who could rephrase any part perfectly into English... also wasn't it some form of Egyptian not Hebrew? I hear lots of stuff.

It was a hybrid of Hebrew and Egyptian characters, possibly as a form of secretarial shorthand.

 

[fatboys]

We're talking about the creator of the Universe who could rephrase any part perfectly into English... also wasn't it some form of Egyptian not Hebrew? I hear lots of stuff.

God worked through JS limited knowledge and understanding. I am not sure what animals he as aware of but what ever they rode came across to JS mind as a horse. Maybe it was a horse but that is the reason for many modern thoughts and meanings.

 

[BigDaddy4]

It was a hybrid of Hebrew and Egyptian characters, possibly as a form of secretarial shorthand.

Now it's "reformed Egyptian-Hebrew shorthand"?

 

[BigDaddy4]

God worked through JS limited knowledge and understanding. I am not sure what animals he as aware of but what ever they rode came across to JS mind as a horse. Maybe it was a horse but that is the reason for many modern thoughts and meanings.

Are you trying to imply that JS only saw pictures of objects? Or God brought the real life creatures somehow into his mind?

 

[mmksparbud]

#Truth

Though actually quite rich coming from an SDA.

By all means--start another thread and go for it.

 

[RhaegarTargaryen]

It was a hybrid of Hebrew and Egyptian characters, possibly as a form of secretarial shorthand.

.....I would say that you can't make this stuff up, but you actually CAN. Joseph Smith did. Do you have the FAINTEST idea about how languages work? And the language of ancient Israel (and Egypt for that matter) in particular?

While there was SOME influence from Egyptian in Ancient Hebrew (no language is static), it is plain ludicrous to claim that the language was "a hybrid of Hebrew and Egyptian characters". It....wasn't. This is not belief, but fact. Of course Joseph Smith didn't know this, because no manuscript early enough had been discovered at his time, and if it had, he wouldn't have known about it. The earliest inscription found is the Gezer calendar from around 900 BC, and it has NO Egyptian on it.

So at the time "Lehi" (another thing: Many of the names mentioned in the BoM reveals a lack of knowledge of naming conventions that is quite understandable for a guy who knows less than Jon Snow, but utterly ludicrous if we're expected to take it seriously) supposedly left, around 600 BC, it is insane to think that there was some kind of hybrid Hebrew-Egyptian language in common use.
It's bovine manure. And trying to convince us that it's legit is quite frankly an insult to our intelligence.