Universal reconciliation

[Hillsage]

Timothew;
Don't you remember when Jesus said "On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"
(Matthew 7:22-23 ESV)
When Christ returns, there will be some who will still have rejected him. He said so himself.

The problem with that use of Matt 7 is this; this judgment has nothing to do with being a believer in Christ's saving blood. It is a judgment of works being done in the name of Jesus. These are not only professing "Christians", they'd have to be believers who at least believe in the supernatural manifestations of the Spirit. Their work of lawlessness isn't in not knowing Jesus as savior. It is in not being led of the Spirit in the authoritative use of His name in those works.

Scripture is talking about he who "does the will" vs 21, and not he who 'knows me' or 'who I know'. He who "does the will" of Jesus (led of the Spirit like Jesus was) and not a "lawbreaker".

"Enter the kingdom of heaven" in YLT is "come into the reign of the heavenS" I believe this speaks of a kingdom of God that is here and now. And judgments concerning the works of that kingdom are being recorded for "that day". And those works will not survive the bema/judgment seat of Christ, so that person will depart Christ, enter the fire that destroys works but saves the 'wicked' believer...1Cor 3.

God knows who to save. God knows the heart of Lot's wife, it is not for us to decide. The point of the destruction of Sodom is that it shows what the coming judgment will bring to the wicked, just as Peter wrote in his second letter. (also Jude)

Timothew, you tell me it's not for us to decide her heart, and then you decide what the heart of God's destruction is all about. Maybe yes, maybe no IMO. I do know that the judgment of Sodom is going to be better than it is for Capernaum.

MAT 11:24 but I say to you, to the land of Sodom it shall be more tolerable in a day of judgment than to thee.'

So, according to your POV a "more tolerable" annihilation would be what exactly? UR will say, their time of judgment will be 'less', until the just requirement is met. That requirement just isn't "eternal" as bad translations, written by 'eternal hell' believing bible writers, lead many to believe.

Concerning "complete destruction", why do you object to that?
"But transgressors shall be altogether destroyed;
the future of the wicked shall be cut off." Psalm 37:38
This complete destruction proves that the wicked will not be eternally tortured by God as the unstable claim, but it also proves that transgressors will be "altogether destroyed", not just partially destroyed.

Telll me the difference between iniquity, transgression and sin in your opinion.

EXO 34:7 keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation."

I would like to believe with you that everyone will repent and avoid the coming destruction. The Lord does not wish that any would perish, and neither do I, but some people refuse to repent and the Bible says that they bring destruction on themselves. (2 Peter 3:9, 2 Peter 2:1)

I know you would like to believe like me, and I think that's because it is in accord with the Father's heart to do so.

 

[Hillsage]

....................................

This is true, of course.
But it's not what you want for your loved ones, is it.
More importantly, it's not biblical.

While I do agree 'in Sspirit' with what you are saying, I have trouble with 'the letter' of your post. Those who read bible translations that are not scriptural, have a biblical basis for their belief in "eternal hell", even as those false biblical translations have been interpreted/printed.

What many don't know is that, to be considered by many publishers, for biblical translating, translators must first agree with an 'accepted beliefs' or 'statements of faith' agreement which passes an orthodox litmus, or they are not hired. That's why people like you/I trust in other translations which do not have the interpretations like; 'eternal hell', 'eternal damnation', eternal judgment ect. ect. in them.

I have appreciated your input here 'brixen7'. You have offered a number of things I've benefited from hearing. "Never too old"...I guess.

 

[SarahsKnight]

'eternal hell', 'eternal damnation', eternal judgment ect. ect. in them.

Actually one of the things that gets me about those who preach eternal torment as though it were an unmistakeable doctrine is that I don't think any of those terms you have mentioned are laid out in even the Bible translations that are commonly used to support the ECT and immortal soul theology. Like, I don't remember ever seeing any part actually worded "eternal hell" or "eternal damnation". But somehow a few eternal fires here and a few undying worms there, which don't even actually refer to what fate befalls the unbeliever himself, all manage to trump many more obvious words that clearly spell out - in their simplistic interpretation, that is - either conditional immortality/literal everlasting destruction, OR universal reconciliation, in the pulpit. Until a year or so ago, after I had already become accustomed to my new stance on what Christ's death and resurrection and the fate of those who believe and those who do not, I never fully realized just how ... ingrained the traditional view of ECT had been into my mind, and probably the minds of anyone who grew up in a church outside of Jehovah's Witnesses or Seventh Day Adventism (and I don't know of a denomination that as a whole adheres to universal reconciliation at all).

Still, no matter which view one holds, the grand achievement that Christ's obedience unto death at the cross has accomplished for us all should be held in the highest of regard. And I believe that in general, without getting into denominational or theological specifics beyond the standings of ECT, annihilationism, or universal reconciliation, we believers do adhere to that quite well, at least in our hearts, even if we may be mistaken on what exactly is meant by His death and resurrection. Only in more specific theologies do I think that the meaning and the importance of the cross is missed entirely, like Dan Corner's or Darwin Fish's, for instance, who teach not just ECT, but that you are always walking some sort of tightrope in order to keep your faith and salvation by the cross intact, and in the end like only 0.25% of all humanity who ever lived will avoid the fate of ECT. Which I personally think is just utterly hopeless foolishness where you are knowingly or unknowingly just cutting Jesus and His life and obedience to the point of death out of the equation entirely, and your preaching is of little to no beneficial, godly effect. But, just my personal way of seeing it.

 

[Hillsage]

Actually one of the things that gets me about those who preach eternal torment as though it were an unmistakeable doctrine is that I don't think any of those terms you have mentioned are laid out in even the Bible translations that are commonly used to support the ECT and immortal soul theology.

In reality your post is truly more correct than mine concerning those terms.

But, just my personal way of seeing it.

I think you are "seeing it" clearly as well and proclaiming it 'clearly' as well. Here are a few scriptures that allude to what I was trying to say.

MAT 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.

MAT 25:41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;

MAT 25:46 And they will go away into eternal punishment,

HEB 6:2 with instruction about ablutions, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

JUD 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.


2TH 1:9 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Which is a translational joke, if it can't be punished or destroyed...in eternity then it appears to be unpunishable and indestructible IMO.

 

[TheBarrd]

.......................................

"Rather, we ought to simply trust Him" -- TheBarrd

That's right...and that also means trusting in what He actually says in His Word. As a consequence, we don't have to wonder much as to what God will do with a very wicked person. We have as an example the conversion of Saul who became the apostle Paul -- who described himself as the "chief" of sinners, or some such thing. Look at all the suffering God put him through! There is even indication that he was killed at least once by stoning. God will indeed repay everyone "according to their works." But this has absolutely nothing to do with their ultimate salvation, which is not based upon THEIR works -- but God's (lest any man boast).

I don't know about anyone else, but it seems to me that we have all sinned...should God decide to punish the "wicked", which of us will escape judgment? I think of Jesus, facing the crowd who had brought the woman taken in adultery...they wanted to stone her.
Jesus knelt down in the dirt, and wrote something...we are not told what...and then He faced the angry crowd and called out "Let the one who is without sin throw the first stone at her." A very dramatic moment, yes?
And soon, everyone in the crowd had dropped their rocks, and slunk off...

Now, I know that I am not without sin. I know that I have no business picking up rocks to throw at anyone else...certainly not Paul, fevvinsake!

I would not wish to be found with the attitude of the Pharisee, who was so proud that God had not made him "like other men".
Rather, let God find me with the attitude of the publican...and be merciful to this old sinner...

 

[Der Alte]

Actually one of the things that gets me about those who preach eternal torment as though it were an unmistakeable doctrine is that I don't think any of those terms you have mentioned are laid out in even the Bible translations that are commonly used to support the ECT and immortal soul theology. Like, I don't remember ever seeing any part actually worded "eternal hell" or "eternal damnation". But somehow a few eternal fires here and a few undying worms there, which don't even actually refer to what fate befalls the unbeliever himself, all manage to trump many more obvious words that clearly spell out - in their simplistic interpretation, that is - either conditional immortality/literal everlasting destruction, OR universal reconciliation, in the pulpit. Until a year or so ago, after I had already become accustomed to my new stance on what Christ's death and resurrection and the fate of those who believe and those who do not, I never fully realized just how ... ingrained the traditional view of ECT had been into my mind, and probably the minds of anyone who grew up in a church outside of Jehovah's Witnesses or Seventh Day Adventism (and I don't know of a denomination that as a whole adheres to universal reconciliation at all).

Still, no matter which view one holds, the grand achievement that Christ's obedience unto death at the cross has accomplished for us all should be held in the highest of regard. And I believe that in general, without getting into denominational or theological specifics beyond the standings of ECT, annihilationism, or universal reconciliation, we believers do adhere to that quite well, at least in our hearts, even if we may be mistaken on what exactly is meant by His death and resurrection. Only in more specific theologies do I think that the meaning and the importance of the cross is missed entirely, like Dan Corner's or Darwin Fish's, for instance, who teach not just ECT, but that you are always walking some sort of tightrope in order to keep your faith and salvation by the cross intact, and in the end like only 0.25% of all humanity who ever lived will avoid the fate of ECT. Which I personally think is just utterly hopeless foolishness where you are knowingly or unknowingly just cutting Jesus and His life and obedience to the point of death out of the equation entirely, and your preaching is of little to no beneficial, godly effect. But, just my personal way of seeing it.

The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,

• "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

These teachings reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

If Jesus had wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, He knew the word for death and that is what He would have said but He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died, young, old, good, bad, and knew that it was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.

Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Jewish Encyclopedia Online
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Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.

Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992

Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”

(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)

G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:

“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
.
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism - Bible Truth Discussion Forum​

 

[Hillsage]

I don't know about anyone else, but it seems to me that we have all sinned...should God decide to punish the "wicked", which of us will escape judgment?

"Seems" about right to me too.

I think of Jesus, facing the crowd who had brought the woman taken in adultery...they wanted to stone her.
Jesus knelt down in the dirt, and wrote something...we are not told what...

You're right, nobody knows, but I think he wrote the sins of every one there with a stone in their hand, including those pharisees and ignorant Jews who thought they understood correct theology.

and then He faced the angry crowd and called out "Let the one who is without sin throw the first stone at her." A very dramatic moment, yes?
And soon, everyone in the crowd had dropped their rocks, and slunk off...

Confirming my suspicion as to what Jesus wrote.

I would not wish to be found with the attitude of the Pharisee, who was so proud that God had not made him "like other men".
Rather, let God find me with the attitude of the publican...and be merciful to this old sinner...

Nor would I want to be found with their false theology at the time of Jesus. A theology which was founded in the 500 years when God wasn't even speaking through the prophets. I guess that's also the reason you don't find the word pharisee once in the OT. And I think that's also why you find Jesus having so much trouble with those pharisees in the NT.

 

[Timothew]

....................................

This is true, of course.
But it's not what you want for your loved ones, is it.
More importantly, it's not biblical.

I didn't say that the young or those who have never heard the gospel will be destroyed. I only say what the Bible says, and the Bible is silent on the fate of those who have never heard. We are told to go out and tell them that they can have eternal life in Christ. I don't want to speculate on the fate of those who aren't able to make a decision about Christ, because the Bible is silent on this any speculation is merely speculation.

Nobody wants their loved ones to perish, but what we want does not determine truth, does it? Can you honestly say that the Bible does not say that the end for the enemies of the cross is destruction? Please read Philippians 3:19 and then tell me it doesn't say "their end is destruction" (ESV)

 

[TheBarrd]

I remember a conversation I had once, a long time ago, with another "Christian" on the internet. At the time, I was struggling with the idea of eternal torture, and kinda leaning toward annihilation.
This guy was totally into the "burning in hell" doctrine. Fire and brimstone all the way, baby. And as he described for me how my sinful flesh would blister and crackle, and blacken and drop off of my poor, tortured body...and my eyeballs would melt (he really seemed to like that particular detail...melting eyeballs), I began to realize that he actually looked forward to watching the "wicked" suffer. Oh, yes...all of this was to be done "in the presence of the saints", with the idea that the saints were going to relish every delightful scream.

Now, how could someone who has known the love of Jesus Christ, and the mercy of God...how could someone who truly loves others "as I have loved you"...how could a Christian even think that way?
Who is more wicked? The horrible old sinner, with the melting eyeballs...or the "saved" Christian, who just can't wait to watch the torture begin?

 

[TheBarrd]

And did you ever notice that, even though most of the people ever born on this bit of rock we call "home" would be on the list of those destined for the flames, those who wait to watch their eyeballs melt always refer to "them"...there is never any thought at all that it might be "us"...and certainly never "me".
Yet...yet...my Bible tells me that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".

Personally, I think we all need to stop spending so much time dwelling on what is in store for "them", and think, instead, about working out our own salvation "with fear and trembling". (Especially if you are one of those who harbors a secret desire to watch other folks' eyeballs melt!)
Remember what Jesus told Peter, when Peter asked Him what would happen to John?
Joh 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

 

[Norah63]

And not one word here about the LDS. Refreshing to know we all have a blessed hope.

 

[SarahsKnight]

I remember a conversation I had once, a long time ago, with another "Christian" on the internet. At the time, I was struggling with the idea of eternal torture, and kinda leaning toward annihilation.
This guy was totally into the "burning in hell" doctrine. Fire and brimstone all the way, baby. And as he described for me how my sinful flesh would blister and crackle, and blacken and drop off of my poor, tortured body...and my eyeballs would melt (he really seemed to like that particular detail...melting eyeballs), I began to realize that he actually looked forward to watching the "wicked" suffer. Oh, yes...all of this was to be done "in the presence of the saints", with the idea that the saints were going to relish every delightful scream.

Now, how could someone who has known the love of Jesus Christ, and the mercy of God...how could someone who truly loves others "as I have loved you"...how could a Christian even think that way?
Who is more wicked? The horrible old sinner, with the melting eyeballs...or the "saved" Christian, who just can't wait to watch the torture begin?

I know, man. I heard a couple of believers talk like that, too. Thankfully only a very few out of the bunch who adhere to ECT seem to go to that extreme. But when you hear something like actual vivid descriptions of the torture and how it will be put on rewind and repeat for all eternity - and how it will actually be "good" in God's and the saints' points of view on top of all of that - from someone, Jonathan Edwards' famous but glaringly Biblically lacking sermon "Sinners in the Hands of An Angry God" for example, you really have to wonder what is in that person's heart.

 

[brixken7]

"I didn't say that the young or those who have never heard the gospel will be destroyed. I only say what the Bible says, and the Bible is silent on the fate of those who have never heard." -- Timothew

The Bible is "silent" on such an important matter as this?
On the contrary, the Creator of the universe is not silent.
He says that He "wills" (not wishes or hopes) but "wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth" (I Timothy 2:4; original Greek).

But I cannot give you the faith to truly BELIEVE this scripture. That can only come from God.

"We are told to go out and tell them that they can have eternal life in Christ. I don't want to speculate on the fate of those who aren't able to make a decision about Christ, because the Bible is silent on this any speculation is merely speculation." -- Timothew

No, I Timothy 2:4 is not "speculation," it's the truth.
God's Word, as Christ said, is the truth.

"Nobody wants their loved ones to perish, but what we want does not determine truth, does it?" -- Timothew

Yes, sometimes what we desire does determine the truth -- it can. I say that because we read in the Bible that God will not withhold any good thing from those who walk uprightly (Psalm 84:11).

"He will fulfill the desire of them that fear Him"
(Psalm 145:19). Men and women who LOVE God and their fellow man truly desire to see everyone saved. And this scripture says that God will fulfill their desire. But again, one needs faith to believe this.

"Can you honestly say that the Bible does not say that the end for the enemies of the cross is destruction? Please read Philippians 3:19 and then tell me it doesn't say "their end is destruction" -- Timothew

That's a GOOD question, Timothew.
In fact, I once knew a man who rejected universal salvation primarily because of this scripture! But the answer to Philippians 3:19 is very simple.

Let's suppose a policeman saw you driving your car recklessly. And he said to you, "You are going to end up in the hospital." From these words, would you think he was saying you would spend eternity in the hospital?

Silly, isn't it.
Actually, God's Word teaches that the vast majority of mankind is unsaved (Matthew 7:14) and they will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire, which will be a "swift destruction" (II Peter 2:1).

Their conversion will take place during the Great White Throne judgment of Revelation 20, and then God will give them NEW bodies (Revelation 21:5) -- with their resurrection from the Lake of Fire. For as I said before, God rescues mankind "twice and thrice" from death (Job 33:29; original Hebrew).

 

[Der Alte]

The Bible is "silent" on such an important matter as this?
On the contrary, the Creator of the universe is not silent.
He says that He "wills" (not wishes or hopes) but "wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth" (I Timothy 2:4; original Greek).

But I cannot give you the faith to truly BELIEVE this scripture. That can only come from God.

No, I Timothy 2:4 is not "speculation," it's the truth.
God's Word, as Christ said, is the truth.

God's will. Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, not just an elect, predestined, chosen, few, was for all of Israel and all of Judah to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments presented, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.

This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
[size=-1]• • •[/size]
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

Yes, sometimes what we desire does determine the truth -- it can. I say that because we read in the Bible that God will not withhold any good thing from those who walk uprightly (Psalm 84:11).

"He will fulfill the desire of them that fear Him"
(Psalm 145:19). Men and women who LOVE God and their fellow man truly desire to see everyone saved. And this scripture says that God will fulfill their desire. But again, one needs faith to believe this.

That's a GOOD question, Timothew.
In fact, I once knew a man who rejected universal salvation primarily because of this scripture! But the answer to Philippians 3:19 is very simple.

Let's suppose a policeman saw you driving your car recklessly. And he said to you, "You are going to end up in the hospital." From these words, would you think he was saying you would spend eternity in the hospital?

Actually, God's Word teaches that the vast majority of mankind is unsaved (Matthew 7:14) and they will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire, which will be a "swift destruction" (II Peter 2:1).

Their conversion will take place during the Great White Throne judgment of Revelation 20, and then God will give them NEW bodies (Revelation 21:5) -- with their resurrection from the Lake of Fire. For as I said before, God rescues mankind "twice and thrice" from death (Job 33:29; original Hebrew).

According to Jesus there will be no conversion at the throne.

Mat 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
. . .
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
44 Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?'
45 Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.'
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."​

"Eternal punishment" does not sound like universal reconciliation.

Your proof text Job 33:29 does not say what you think it does. God only saves in this life, not after death.

Job 33:24 and he is merciful to him, and says, 'Deliver him from going down into the pit; I have found a ransom;
25 let his flesh become fresh with youth; let him return to the days of his youthful vigor';​

 

[TheBarrd]

I think I have more respect for the Christian who believes in Universalism than I have for the "melting eyeballs" crowd.
At least, the Universalists believe in the love and the mercy of God.
God is not a sadist...

 

[Der Alte]

I think I have more respect for the Christian who believes in Universalism than I have for the "melting eyeballs" crowd.
At least, the Universalists believe in the love and the mercy of God.
God is not a sadist...

False accusation! Those who believe in "eternal punishment" do not reject the "love and mercy of God" we also believe in the justice and judgement of God. I strongly doubt that anybody ever expressed any pleasure in "melting eyeballs."

 

[Norah63]

Will not the God of the whole earth do right? We can trust in His eternal love for all things.

 

[TheBarrd]

Der Alter, if you look back across my posts in this forum, you'll see that I've been saying all along that we ought to trust God, and that His final decisions will be right and just. Now, I do not claim to know what His final decision might be, but I also have said that it is more than likely to be something we have never even thought of.

There was also this post: http://www.christianforums.com/t7853692-3/#post67376094
that describes an actual experience of mine, from those long ago days when I was trying to define my own beliefs about these things.

Yes, sir, I'm afraid there are people...not many, I hope...who do look forward with diabolical glee, to watching people's eyeballs melt. Evidently, just not being sure that He would torture people through eternity is enough to ensure future eyeball melting.
I'm sorry...but that thought just doesn't set well with me. The God I know is a God of love...

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alter, if you look back across my posts in this forum, you'll see that I've been saying all along that we ought to trust God, and that His final decisions will be right and just. Now, I do not claim to know what His final decision might be, but I also have said that it is more than likely to be something we have never even thought of.

There was also this post: http://www.christianforums.com/t7853692-3/#post67376094
that describes an actual experience of mine, from those long ago days when I was trying to define my own beliefs about these things.

Yes, sir, I'm afraid there are people...not many, I hope...who do look forward with diabolical glee, to watching people's eyeballs melt. Evidently, just not being sure that He would torture people through eternity is enough to ensure future eyeball melting.
I'm sorry...but that thought just doesn't set well with me. The God I know is a God of love...

If there will be "melting eyeballs," which I doubt, and people who can and will look at those with pleasure, I wonder if God might not make it impossible for those people to see such suffering? Does that not reflect God's love?

 

[TheBarrd]

If there will be "melting eyeballs," which I doubt, and people who can and will look at those with pleasure, I wonder if God might not make it impossible for those people to see such suffering? Does that not reflect God's love?

Yeah, I doubt that there will be any "melting eyeballs" myself...but the guy I was talking to was very sure. You could almost see him rubbing his hands together in anticipation.

Now, I don't claim to speak for God, of course...I would never dare to presume to do so!...however, if it were up to me, anyone who could enjoy watching such horror would be the first in line to have their eyeballs melted.

Yeah...that might make it impossible to see the suffering...