Universal reconciliation

[Der Alte]

. . . What we've uncovered here from the Scriptures is proof that all of Christ's enemies will become converted through the indwelling of God's holy spirit. Not a one of his past, present, or future enemies will be left unconverted! As a result, all of mankind will no longer be at odds with their Maker, and God shall have kept His promise to make Christ's enemies "at peace with him" (Proverbs 16:7, CV)!

Your out-of-context proof text does not say what you claim it does.

JPS Pro 16:7 When a man's ways please the LORD, He maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.​

When a man's ways please YHWH, YHWH makes the man's enemies at peace with the man. God does not reconcile His enemies to Himself because one person's ways please Him.

 

[brixken7]

[FONT=&quot]"If death is done away with in Revelation 21:4 how is it that all these groups of sinners are thrown into the lake of Fire, the second death, only four verses later (in verse 8)?"
-- Der Alter[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
....................

Awww. Now you've done it! I love you, Der Alter, for bringing up what is, in my opinion, the absolute BEST proof of universalism of all. On a scale of 1 to 10, I would probably rate "The Footstool Prophecy" as a 8 or 9. But "The True Ending of the Bible" I would definitely rate as a "10".

But before I explain "The True Ending...," I want to make a comment concerning Revelation 20:15. If I had written the next verse (16), it would have essentially read something like, "And God then resurrected everyone from the Second Death and they all lived happily ever after." Likewise, you probably would have wished for no ambiguity here either. There's probably only one explanation for God not having a verse 16: it's because God likes to hide things (Proverbs 25:2) -- and He's very good at it. He can even hide that which is in plain sight, including the Bible's true ending.

Der Alter, have you ever been to a movie and not be able to recognize its ending? Of course not. If the movie was a crime drama or a shoot 'em up western, you know it's ended when the villain is behind bars and the hero kisses the heroine, or they ride off into the sunset, or he marries her. In other words, all the conflict is resolved and everyone is happy. End of story. And lest there be any doubt in anyone's mind, we often see the words, "The End" appear on the screen. That cinches it, it's over.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"The Story of Man"[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Now with a history book called the Bible we have a similar story thread, only it concerns mankind. In the end of this book, the villain (Satan) and his cohorts (the demons) are behind bars (Revelation 20:10). The hero of this story (Jesus Christ) marries the heroine (the New Jerusalem) in Revelation 21:2. They live happily ever after (verses 3 and 4). Thus "It is done" (verse 6). "Everything is finished" (Contemporary English Version). There are NO new events from this point on!

Or as we might say today in the modern vernacular, "The End"!

And the balance of the Bible (from the middle of Revelation 21:6 to Revelation 22:21)? One could perhaps best call it, "The Epilogue". [/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]I welcome your criticisms.
[/FONT]


[/FONT]

 

[Der Alte]

"If death is done away with in Revelation 21:4 how is it that all these groups of sinners are thrown into the lake of Fire, the second death, only four verses later (in verse 8)?"
-- Der Alter

....................

Awww. Now you've done it! I love you, Der Alter, for bringing up what is, in my opinion, the absolute BEST proof of universalism of all. On a scale of 1 to 10, I would probably rate "The Footstool Prophecy" as a 8 or 9. But "The True Ending of the Bible" I would definitely rate as a "10".

But before I explain "The True Ending...," I want to make a comment concerning Revelation 20:15. If I had written the next verse (16), it would have essentially read something like, "And God then resurrected everyone from the Second Death and they all lived happily ever after." Likewise, you probably would have wished for no ambiguity here either. There's probably only one explanation for God not having a verse 16: it's because God likes to hide things (Proverbs 25:2) -- and He's very good at it. He can even hide that which is in plain sight, including the Bible's true ending.

Der Alter, have you ever been to a movie and not be able to recognize its ending? Of course not. If the movie was a crime drama or a shoot 'em up western, you know it's ended when the villain is behind bars and the hero kisses the heroine, or they ride off into the sunset, or he marries her. In other words, all the conflict is resolved and everyone is happy. End of story. And lest there be any doubt in anyone's mind, we often see the words, "The End" appear on the screen. That cinches it, it's over.

"The Story of Man"

Now with a history book called the Bible we have a similar story thread, only it concerns mankind. In the end of this book, the villain (Satan) and his cohorts (the demons) are behind bars (Revelation 20:10). The hero of this story (Jesus Christ) marries the heroine (the New Jerusalem) in Revelation 21:2. They live happily ever after (verses 3 and 4). Thus "It is done" (verse 6). "Everything is finished" (Contemporary English Version). There are NO new events from this point on!

Or as we might say today in the modern vernacular, "The End"!

And the balance of the Bible (from the middle of Revelation 21:6 to Revelation 22:21)? One could perhaps best call it, "The Epilogue". I welcome your criticisms.

Sorry I don't pay attention to nonsense like this. The Bible is not a mystery novel or movie written by finite, fallible men to to titillate the prurient interests of other fallible, finite men. Your explanation explains nothing. It is just a cop-out. I have heard many people before you claim to knows the hidden meaning of the scriptures. If I had listened to all of them I would have gone to the koolaid party in Guyana or the barbecue in Waco.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

hmmmmmmmmm

 

[agape101]

"Unfortunately Greek does not make the distinction you are trying to force onto "death."
...................
Okay, so you're saying YOU'RE the expert and I'm not, right?

"And there are not "many plain scriptures throughout the Bible" that God will save "all men."
..................
There are a great many such scriptures, but it would be a waste of my time to give them to YOU.
[/QUOTE]


Ive learned that passive aggressive attacks like " how many semesters of koine greek did you say you had", does not come from confidence, but from fear.

 

[brixken7]

[FONT=&quot]In the Bible the term "feet" is often used in a metaphorical way to mean "one's person"; i.e., it's used synonymously for the man himself. A classic example found in both the Old and New Testaments is found in Psalm 8:6 in reference to mankind:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"Thou made him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]thou has put all things under his feet."[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This same expression "under his feet" is also used in a prophecy concerning Christ and his enemies. It's a prophecy found in I Corinthians 15:25 and 27; Ephesians 1:22; and Hebrews 2:8, and its meaning is crystal clear. God has given "all power," meaning all authority in heaven and in earth, to Christ (Matthew 28:18). And eventually we will see "all" under his rule -- but we don't see this "yet" (Hebrews 2:8). Nevertheless, this is a very important prophecy that we as Christians can take comfort in. Unfortunately, however, it is nearly always confused with what is, arguably, a still greater prophecy, the Footstool Prophecy:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"The Lord" [/FONT][FONT=&quot](God the Father) [FONT=&quot]"said unto my Lord" [/FONT](Christ)[FONT=&quot], 'Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.'"[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](Psalm 110:1, KJV; see also Mark 12:36; Luke 20:43; Acts 2:35; Hebrews 1:13, 10:13, CV). The reader should note that God tells us no less than 6 times in the Bible that He will makes Christ's enemies Christ's "footstool." Now 6 is the number of man (Revelation 13:18), man having been created on the sixth day of the week. This would indicate that this prophecy concerns MAN, what God will do with mankind![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In addition to this, some Greek manuscripts also repeat this prophecy of Christ's "footstool" in Matthew 22:44 (see e.g., the KJV), making a total of 7 times in which this prophecy can be found in the Bible! And 7 is God's number of completeness and perfection, which means this prophecy points to the completion and the perfection of the work of God! How foolish, therefore, to ignore this oft-repeated prophecy! But God takes pleasure in hiding things (Proverbs 25:2), and He has caused this major prophecy to be written in a veiled language which, seemingly, no one has taken the trouble of deciphering. Obviously to understand its meaning, we will have to understand the meaning of a word that is completely unfamiliar to us in biblical terminology: the word "footstool."[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In order to resolve the issue, I examined more than 10 different Bible dictionaries for their definition of the word "footstool." And while none of them gave a precise definition, a few of them noted that this term was often used in reference to God's temple--which is true. There are 4 times in the Old Testament in which this term is substituted for the word "temple." Here's an example:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"How hath the Lord...cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger!"[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](Lamentations 2:1; see also in I Chronicles 28:2; Psalm 99:5, 132:7). So with this term "footstool" actually synonymous with God's temple, the most logical way to define "footstool" is to define the word "temple." And this is easy. The temple was a "dwelling place" (I Kings 8:13; II Chronicles 6:2; Matthew 23:21). This, then, is the meaning of "footstool." It's a "dwelling place"![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So what does God mean, then, when He repeatedly says that He will make Christ's enemies his "dwelling place"? How can Christ "dwell" within his enemies?![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]There is only one possible answer. And anyone who is really familiar with the Bible has already guessed it: God is going to place Christ's spirit, which is the spirit of God (Romans 8:9), within Christ's enemies. Thus, Christ will be "in" them, even as he is now "in" God's saints (verse 10). In other words, Christ's enemies will then become the temple of God, even as God's saints are already His temple, His dwelling place upon this earth (II Corinthians 6:16)! [FONT=&quot](Note: This is why God calls this earth His "footstool" in Matthew 5:35.)[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]What we've uncovered here from the Scriptures is proof that all of Christ's enemies will become converted through the indwelling of God's holy spirit. Not a one of his past, present, or future enemies will be left unconverted! As a result, all of mankind will no longer be at odds with their Maker, and God shall have kept His promise to make Christ's enemies "at peace with him" (Proverbs 16:7, CV)![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]-- brixken7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[Wryetui]

I don't know what to say about this, but while I think it looks good is not possible. Yes, God is all loving, but it's not His fault that people go away from Him through sin, it is people's choice. He doesn't want us to die forever, but to return and be alive, it is our choice. Those who choose to go away from Him will be away from Him in the eternity...

Based on UR I can do all the bad things or the sins I want in this life because my all loving God will never let me suffer...

 

[SarahsKnight]

I think you misunderstand the UR viewpoint, Wryetui. I have never heard any universalist encourage others to keep on in sin in any way and they have easily the highest respect and reverence for God that I have seen of all people in the three positions of ECT, annihilationism, and UR. And there is still a cnsequence to evil in UR. It is just a corrective punishment instead of endless torture, but I doubt it is at all "pleasant".

 

[Hillsage]

I think you misunderstand the UR viewpoint, Wryetui. I have never heard any universalist encourage others to keep on in sin in any way and they have easily the highest respect and reverence for God that I have seen of all people in the three positions of ECT, annihilationism, and UR. And there is still a cnsequence to evil in UR. It is just a corrective punishment instead of endless torture, but I doubt it is at all "pleasant".

I don't know what your personal persuasion is, concerning the ages to come, but I wholly agree with your present posted observation of UR. 'It' being a position I've held for many years now.

 

[SarahsKnight]

I'm an annihlationist, Hillsage. It seems the most Biblically consistent to me. But I certainly have no problem if UR turns out to be true. L. Ray Smith's tendency to have been sarcastic when he taught UR aside, I think universalists have the best attitude exemplary of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Der Alte]

In the Bible the term "feet" is often used in a metaphorical way to mean "one's person"; i.e., it's used synonymously for the man himself. A classic example found in both the Old and New Testaments is found in Psalm 8:6 in reference to mankind:

"Thou made him to have dominion over the works of thy hands;
thou has put all things under his feet."

This same expression "under his feet" is also used in a prophecy concerning Christ and his enemies. It's a prophecy found in I Corinthians 15:25 and 27; Ephesians 1:22; and Hebrews 2:8, and its meaning is crystal clear. God has given "all power," meaning all authority in heaven and in earth, to Christ (Matthew 28:18). And eventually we will see "all" under his rule -- but we don't see this "yet" (Hebrews 2:8). Nevertheless, this is a very important prophecy that we as Christians can take comfort in. Unfortunately, however, it is nearly always confused with what is, arguably, a still greater prophecy, the Footstool Prophecy:

"The Lord" (God the Father) "said unto my Lord" (Christ), 'Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.'"

(Psalm 110:1, KJV; see also Mark 12:36; Luke 20:43; Acts 2:35; Hebrews 1:13, 10:13, CV). The reader should note that God tells us no less than 6 times in the Bible that He will makes Christ's enemies Christ's "footstool." Now 6 is the number of man (Revelation 13:18), man having been created on the sixth day of the week. This would indicate that this prophecy concerns MAN, what God will do with mankind!

In addition to this, some Greek manuscripts also repeat this prophecy of Christ's "footstool" in Matthew 22:44 (see e.g., the KJV), making a total of 7 times in which this prophecy can be found in the Bible! And 7 is God's number of completeness and perfection, which means this prophecy points to the completion and the perfection of the work of God! How foolish, therefore, to ignore this oft-repeated prophecy! But God takes pleasure in hiding things (Proverbs 25:2), and He has caused this major prophecy to be written in a veiled language which, seemingly, no one has taken the trouble of deciphering. Obviously to understand its meaning, we will have to understand the meaning of a word that is completely unfamiliar to us in biblical terminology: the word "footstool."

In order to resolve the issue, I examined more than 10 different Bible dictionaries for their definition of the word "footstool." And while none of them gave a precise definition, a few of them noted that this term was often used in reference to God's temple--which is true. There are 4 times in the Old Testament in which this term is substituted for the word "temple." Here's an example:

"How hath the Lord...cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger!"

(Lamentations 2:1; see also in I Chronicles 28:2; Psalm 99:5, 132:7). So with this term "footstool" actually synonymous with God's temple, the most logical way to define "footstool" is to define the word "temple." And this is easy. The temple was a "dwelling place" (I Kings 8:13; II Chronicles 6:2; Matthew 23:21). This, then, is the meaning of "footstool." It's a "dwelling place"!

So what does God mean, then, when He repeatedly says that He will make Christ's enemies his "dwelling place"? How can Christ "dwell" within his enemies?!

There is only one possible answer. And anyone who is really familiar with the Bible has already guessed it: God is going to place Christ's spirit, which is the spirit of God (Romans 8:9), within Christ's enemies. Thus, Christ will be "in" them, even as he is now "in" God's saints (verse 10). In other words, Christ's enemies will then become the temple of God, even as God's saints are already His temple, His dwelling place upon this earth (II Corinthians 6:16)! (Note: This is why God calls this earth His "footstool" in Matthew 5:35.)

What we've uncovered here from the Scriptures is proof that all of Christ's enemies will become converted through the indwelling of God's holy spirit. Not a one of his past, present, or future enemies will be left unconverted! As a result, all of mankind will no longer be at odds with their Maker, and God shall have kept His promise to make Christ's enemies "at peace with him" (Proverbs 16:7, CV)!

-- brixken7

Isa 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

Mat 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?​

 

[Hillsage]

I'm an annihlationist, Hillsage.

A position which would certainly be my next choice were I not settled with UR. Eternal torture simply seems to be more consistent with the heart man than the heart of God IMO.

It seems the most Biblically consistent to me. But I certainly have no problem if UR turns out to be true.

Nor do I, with annihilation, if UR is wrong.

L. Ray Smith's tendency to have been sarcastic when he taught UR aside, I think universalists have the best attitude exemplary of the Holy Spirit.

I spent a lot of time on his site years ago. So I know what you mean. He disappointed me a lot with his attitude. Though I understand the obvious attacks he withstood from orthodoxy, I believe he should have shown the maturity and grace to withstand them, especially given the platform of exposure from which he spoke.

 

[brixken7]

A position which would certainly be my next choice were I not settled with UR. Eternal torture simply seems to be more consistent with the heart man than the heart of God IMO. Nor do I, with annihilation, if UR is wrong. I spent a lot of time on his site years ago. So I know what you mean. He disappointed me a lot with his attitude. Though I understand the obvious attacks he withstood from orthodoxy, I believe he should have shown the maturity and grace to withstand them, especially given the platform of exposure from which he spoke.

....................................

Do either of you know anyone who has -- or had -- more knowledge of the Bible than L.Ray Smith? If so, I'd like to know who he is.

Yes, he did use sarcasm at times, but so also did great prophets of the Bible and Christ himself. Please, let's not attack a fellow universalist and a great teacher of the Bible such as L. Ray Smith...who being deceased, cannot defend himself.

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

You are at best misinformed on a few things. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,

• "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24

This is exactly why the church, wrapped its beloved literalism, fails to grasp God's grace extended to all humans. The literal finds primarily condemnation. God's true nature and mercy is found in the allegorical. Notice that all the quotes used above are from Jesus' figurative or metaphoric teaching....yet the traditional church [evangelicalism] primarily enforces a highly literal understanding of the Bible.

Here's an example of my point:

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others." (Mat 23:23)

The corruption of the Pharisaic mind--and the proper direction to its cure--is pointed out by the Lord here. Note the opposite natures of
1) tithing mint and dill and cumin, and
2) the weightier provisions of the law: justice, mercy, faithfulness.

In tithing material things, the mind is focused on the things of the material world. Justice, mercy, faithfulness on the other hand are immaterial goods. Cummin and mint occupy points in time and space...the mind fixed on measuring these out for "proper" sacrifice to the Lord misses the mark entirey because the more important things--justice mercy and faithfulness--are spiritual goods. When we concentrate on the literal or letter of the law (measuring out the material things [like money--remember Jesus driving the moneychangers out of the temple?] our minds are shut to the [spiritual] things of God.

The constant, tiresome poring over variances of word meanings is a good example of the fruitlessness of harsh literalism. Word studies are important because our literal understanding of the Bible, as necessary predecessor to metaphor [where prescriptive truth exists] is important. But when the mind stops at the literal, focus on its fundamental tools becomes a subversion to understanding Scripture, a replacement for the real thing. Literal truth supplants spiritual truth, and this is the corruption of the Pharisees.

Paul understood this principle:

"But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God." (Rom 2:29)

"But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter." (Rom 7:6)

"who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." (2Cor 3:6)
How did it happen that so many within "traditional" Christianity have come to zealously defend an interpretive scheme that withholds the weightier provisions of a highly spiritual, God-breathed Bible?

The rational, reasonable revelation of the salvation of all is hidden right before our eyes in the very place tradition calls "irrational", in the allegorical meaning of Scripture. Jesus' use of symbolism itself is an exhortation to carefully search the metaphors He used because they led to the weightier truths--while the modern church castigates those who pursue them, fulfilling Mat 23:15.

 

[RevelationTestament]

This is exactly why the church, wrapped its beloved literalism, fails to grasp God's grace extended to all humans. The literal finds primarily condemnation. God's true nature and mercy is found in the allegorical. Notice that all the quotes used above are from Jesus' figurative or metaphoric teaching....yet the traditional church [evangelicalism] primarily enforces a highly literal understanding of the Bible.

Here's an example of my point:

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others." (Mat 23:23)

The corruption of the Pharisaic mind--and the proper direction to its cure--is pointed out by the Lord here. Note the opposite natures of
1) tithing mint and dill and cumin, and
2) the weightier provisions of the law: justice, mercy, faithfulness.

In tithing material things, the mind is focused on the things of the material world. Justice, mercy, faithfulness on the other hand are immaterial goods. Cummin and mint occupy points in time and space...the mind fixed on measuring these out for "proper" sacrifice to the Lord misses the mark entirey because the more important things--justice mercy and faithfulness--are spiritual goods. When we concentrate on the literal or letter of the law (measuring out the material things [like money--remember Jesus driving the moneychangers out of the temple?] our minds are shut to the [spiritual] things of God.

The constant, tiresome poring over variances of word meanings is a good example of the fruitlessness of harsh literalism. Word studies are important because our literal understanding of the Bible, as necessary predecessor to metaphor [where prescriptive truth exists] is important. But when the mind stops at the literal, focus on its fundamental tools becomes a subversion to understanding Scripture, a replacement for the real thing. Literal truth supplants spiritual truth, and this is the corruption of the Pharisees.

Paul understood this principle:

"But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God." (Rom 2:29)

"But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter." (Rom 7:6)

"who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." (2Cor 3:6)
How did it happen that so many within "traditional" Christianity have come to zealously defend an interpretive scheme that withholds the weightier provisions of a highly spiritual, God-breathed Bible?

The rational, reasonable revelation of the salvation of all is hidden right before our eyes in the very place tradition calls "irrational", in the allegorical meaning of Scripture. Jesus' use of symbolism itself is an exhortation to carefully search the metaphors He used because they led to the weightier truths--while the modern church castigates those who pursue them, fulfilling Mat 23:15.

good points! I get tired of the endless bickering about the meaning of a single word or two and the over-reliance of a single scripture or two out of context to the rest of the scriptures. Do the meanings have importance? Sure they do, but I try to understand them in light of the rest of scripture rather than the "light" of preconceived notions of men. Sometimes other men get things "right," but sometimes (rather often) they get things wrong.

 

[Hillsage]

....................................

Do either of you know anyone who has -- or had -- more knowledge of the Bible than L.Ray Smith? If so, I'd like to know who he is.

I believe I do, but in reality it is simply an opinion. And it is the brother who mentored L. Ray until he thought he knew more than that mentor, as I understand the story. But, like Ray, I have commented on the rashness of some of the comments of this mentor in the past also. I don't do so anymore, because I don't see him responding like he did in those 'relatively' younger years. Maybe Ray would have mellowed/matured out as such also, had he lived longer.

Yes, he did use sarcasm at times, but so also did great prophets of the Bible and Christ himself. Please, let's not attack a fellow universalist and a great teacher of the Bible such as L. Ray Smith...who being deceased, cannot defend himself.

If a 'fellow universalist' or anyone else falls short in their witness and is observed doing so, I feel no compunction from the Spirit or man to either defend or ignore commenting on it. As to the prophets of old, they weren't Christ and fell short too IMO. And to justify ones self, or another, because of something Christ himself did might just might be elevating one higher than they ought to be also IMO. I'll let God be the final judge and I'll continue to judge things temporally as scripture and the Spirit assures I can. And if convicted by the Spirit, as to that error, I will be more than willing to confess my shortcomings or false judgments. This is one I do not feel led to do so. I am not trying 'give offense' with my opinion brixken, and can only hope no 'offense is taken' either.

 

[RevelationTestament]

....................................

Do either of you know anyone who has -- or had -- more knowledge of the Bible than L.Ray Smith? If so, I'd like to know who he is.

Yes, he did use sarcasm at times, but so also did great prophets of the Bible and Christ himself. Please, let's not attack a fellow universalist and a great teacher of the Bible such as L. Ray Smith...who being deceased, cannot defend himself.

I admit to not knowing much about L. Ray Smith, but I did peruse his website bible-truths. I was impressed with his willingness to stick out his neck concerning the many false teachings concerning the doctrine of the trinity. But from my brief perusal, I found he took the words "Savior of the whole world" a little too literally. Yes, Jesus has been ordained as the Savior of the world, but to me that doesn't mean that each and every person will be saved from the punishment of the devil. The Bible basically says the sons of perdition will not be saved. Basically, one cannot be saved if they do not repent, and Jesus will not force them to repent. Perhaps some will repent before their day of judgment after being delivered up from hell, but if they served their punishment it is difficult to understand how they can be "saved" from it. Of this I cannot be sure, but I do know that Christ will not force them to repent so some will not be saved from their "eternal" punishment. I welcome someone to prove this wrong using the Bible.

Another issue I quickly saw regarding L. Ray Smith was his understanding of tithing. Nowhere does the Bible say that the law of tithing was done away by Jesus. Indeed, He said to render under Caesar that which was Caesar's and unto God that which is God's. The early church practiced more than a tithe. They gave of everything they had, and then divided it amongst themselves as they had need. My guess is L. Ray Smith and the people in his church fell way short of that. Jesus came to fulfill the law - not to destroy it. He destroyed the black letter interpretations of the law the Jews clung to, and tried to teach the people to follow the import or meaning of the law rather than doing the various things the pharisees said thinking that "saved" them. The import of the law of the tithe is to render unto God a tenth of our increase to support His work. This law has never been repealed that I know of.
Ray says things like:

How then, under the New Covenant, does a believer give a tenth, when he is supposed to give his all (Rom. 12:1), to a priesthood that does not exist, but now he himself is part of a priesthood (I Peter 2:9), at a temple that does not exist (Mat. 24:1-2), but rather he himself is the temple wherein God dwells? No longer do we have priests with spiritual infirmities interceding for us, but rather we have Christ Jesus as our perfect intercessor and High Priest seated at the right hand of the Majesty in the heavens (Heb. 7:28-8:1).

This seems to be born out of the false idea that the apostles were not priests. Peter said the followers were a royal priesthood, and yes as Ray notes they were covenanted to give everything and not just a tithe. They tithed their whole lives.

At this time in history, Israel owes no tithe to anyone. And, of course, we Gentiles (who are a new creation and the true Israel of God--Gal. 6:16) were never instructed to tithe in the first place. Read all thirteen books of the apostle Paul to the gentiles and find one verse where he instructed Gentiles to pay one cent of tithe money to anyone.

See above. It was a given. The early members of the church tithed all their possessions according to Acts and it was redistributed as according to needs for the work of the church.

Ray also takes pains to point out the abuses of TV evangelists and other pastors to support his idea that Christians should not tithe. He is correct that nowhere does the NT give the idea that the missionaries or witnesses of Christ should support themselves out of a tithe from the church, but Paul stresses that we should support ourselves by the work of our own hands. Peter condemned teaching the things of God for money, and Jesus said that He was the good shepherd, and that the hireling would abandon the flock.
Ray seems to conclude to help the needy and not the greedy. One of the "great" TV evangelists of the modern era, Robert Schuler, died leaving behind just such a legacy. He resigned amid disputes after continued lavish spending had built an enormous debt for the ministry while still paying him handsomely for the "right" to use his likeness, etc, so he was well off while he spent the ministry into enormous debt. The crystal cathedral got sold off to a Catholic diocese. This is exactly why Paul instructed the followers to support themselves by the work of their own hands. However, this does not mean that the members did not tithe. Again. the earliest Christians gave all they had to the church. A tithe is a minimum law.

 

[TheBarrd]

The bottom line is this:
At the end of the day, God is gonna do it His way.
We can sit here and debate about it, till the last trump sounds...
Eternal torment?
Annihilation?
Temporary punishment?
Universal salvation for all?

And maybe we might even manage to come to an agreement...

But in the end what we think about it isn't gonna matter a hill of beans.
God is gonna do whatever He has already decided to do...and it'll be right and perfect, even if it is something we never even thought of.
I promise....

 

[TasteForTruth]

I'm reading a book a book whose purpose is to give "three views of hell", traditional, anihilation, and universal reconciliation. My question is, " do you think universal reconciliation is heresy?

Who cares if it's heresy. Is it the truth? That's the question. So, what do you think? And please define "universal reconciliation," so we have a clearer picture of what you are talking about.

 

[TheBarrd]

Yeah...
Well, you guys have fun arguing about it.
Me, I think I'll just wait for God.