Is Scripture MISSING Dogmas? (2)

[bbbbbbb]

First of all, sorry but I can't possibly follow all the posts that have been added on this thread. However, I think that one of the arguments that Catholics are making in defense of the Magisterium of the RCC lies in that the Bible is ambiguous or, as St Augustine would have said, heretics can use Scripture to support almost anything twisting the language and such.

However, the Magisterium creates its own set of problems. Mainly that the Magisterium expresses itself in documents (Constitutions, Letters, Bullas and so on...) that can or must be interpreted. And they are, resulting in different branch of RC theologians interpreting the Magisterium in different ways. One example would be the question of papal infallibility.

Quite true. Another example would be the radical reinterpretation of the doctrine of Purgatory.

 

[Rick Otto]

The Jews were always looking for someone to rule over them. Israel wanted Gideon to rule over them but he said he would not. He said the Lord would rule over them. Likewise they wanted a king but when they were given the King of Kings they didn't want him.

This is what we must do. We must allow Christ to rule in our hearts and minds. We have been given a promise that Christ will teach us and rule over us. We need not look for any other person to rule over us.

Bingo! That's what I'm talking about.

 

[Rick Otto]

I'm not confusing anything. Having confidence in Christ's Church (which really doesn't involve Rome at all...) is difficult. Ask any martyr, or saint. But when you toss out doctrine because you don't agree with it, rather than struggling to understand it, that's like sitting under a blanket.

You are confusing everything.

Being blind to Rome's influence results in confident confusion.
You call Rome's church Christ's church.
Being personally responsible for governing one's self isn't easy.
Struggling to understand could be a euphemism for trying to obey.
I don't struggle to align myself with what I know is wrong.

 

[Rick Otto]

Is that dogmatic?

Are simple facts dogma?

 

[tadoflamb]

Ok, ignoring what I posted, isn't a good response. And you're still using a fallible choice to join the rcc, as I did in joining my church. Unless you're claiming that because I'm no longer RC I'm not a Christian? That God only leads people to the rcc?

Yeah, I guess I'm reluctant to let you impose your viewpoints on something which is very special and sacred to me. Suffice it to say, I didn't go bouncing from denomination to denomination shopping for the one which most closely aligned to my beliefs. Still, I find it odd that a Calvinist would insist I made a free will decision.

Since you were once a Catholic, you should know what I believe about your status as a Christian. Unlike the sola scripturist denominations, the Catholic Church is very specific about who it considers to be our brothers and sisters in Christ. The fact that you don't know this confirms my suspicion that when you left the Catholic Church, you didn't know what you were leaving. Perhaps you should excuse yourself from commentary regarding the Catholic Church and concentrate more on your denominations dogma, if indeed they have any.

And finally, scattered as they are, it's hard for me to believe that God led former Catholics out of the Church in spite of their claims to the contrary. The God I believe in unites, division is of something else.

 

[tadoflamb]

Are simple facts dogma?

Are you going to join your spiritual kin and start weaving fantastic stories of dismembered heads and headless bodies? In a way, it is an appropriate description of the sola scripturist tradition.

Ecce homo!

 

[tadoflamb]

The Jews were always looking for someone to rule over them. Israel wanted Gideon to rule over them but he said he would not. He said the Lord would rule over them. Likewise they wanted a king but when they were given the King of Kings they didn't want him.

This is what we must do. We must allow Christ to rule in our hearts and minds. We have been given a promise that Christ will teach us and rule over us. We need not look for any other person to rule over us.

Hmmm.

I will appoint for you shepherds after my own heart, who will shepherd you wisely and prudently. (Jeremiah 3:15)

 

[Souldier]

Hmmm.

Yes those shepherds are the apostles and they teach us let to Christ rule our Hearts and minds. The fact that you dont know this actually suggests that the shepherds you have followed are not leading you correctly.

 

[Souldier]

I will appoint for you shepherds after my own heart, who will shepherd you wisely and prudently.

 

[SpyderByte]

Yeah, I guess I'm reluctant to let you impose your viewpoints on something which is very special and sacred to me. Suffice it to say, I didn't go bouncing from denomination to denomination shopping for the one which most closely aligned to my beliefs. Still, I find it odd that a Calvinist would insist I made a free will decision.

Since you were once a Catholic, you should know what I believe about your status as a Christian. Unlike the sola scripturist denominations, the Catholic Church is very specific about who it considers to be our brothers and sisters in Christ. The fact that you don't know this confirms my suspicion that when you left the Catholic Church, you didn't know what you were leaving. Perhaps you should excuse yourself from commentary regarding the Catholic Church and concentrate more on your denominations dogma, if indeed they have any.

And finally, scattered as they are, it's hard for me to believe that God led former Catholics out of the Church in spite of their claims to the contrary. The God I believe in unites, division is of something else.

Wow, there are just too many misrepresentations that are off topic here to get into them. Second, knowing what I know, and going by the veiled insinuations you've used and others have used (ones the mods seem to think is a-ok) no, I don't think you believe Protestants are Christian.

 

[tadoflamb]

Yes those shepherds are the apostles and they teach us let to Christ rule our Hearts and minds. The fact that you dont know this actually suggests that the shepherds you have followed are not leading you correctly.

For myself, that verse isn't locked in the past but has a current and very real relevance in my everyday life. You see, as Jeremiah prophesized, I do have a shepherd in my pastor who offers me and everyone else in his flock excellent pastoral care.

I'm sorry if your not blessed by the same.

 

[mluiesp]

Once again, you belie the fact that you don't know what the Church teaches and thus you didn't know what you 'chose' to leave. To clarify, I believe, as the Church teaches, that all properly baptized persons are our brothers and sisters in Christ. It's impossibly simple.

On the other hand, you won't take communion in my church.

 

[mluiesp]

That's because we're not in communion and in doing so would indicate we have a unity which does not yet exist.

Is it? Really is it just because somebody could think that we are in union while we are not and will not be?

The roots must be deeper than that.

Yet, on the other hand. We both know that there are Catholic priests who won't mind consecrated with Christians of other denominations, and think it's perfectly fine. I disagree with them, but that's beyond the point. The point is that some Catholics go beyond even what was written on Nostra Aetate and think it's all very dandy.

It's true that the Sola Scriptura position (or praxis or whatever) does not avoid the chance of making mistakes. We are only humans. But neither does having a Magisterium that needs to keep adding pages after pages of theological constructs. Because all those long books will be interpreted anyway.

 

[tadoflamb]

Is it? Really is it just because somebody could think that we are in union while we are not and will not be?

The roots must be deeper than that.

Yet, on the other hand. We both know that there are Catholic priests who won't mind consecrated with Christians of other denominations, and think it's perfectly fine. I disagree with them, but that's beyond the point. The point is that some Catholics go beyond even what was written on Nostra Aetate and think it's all very dandy.

It's true that the Sola Scriptura position (or praxis or whatever) does not avoid the chance of making mistakes. We are only humans. But neither does having a Magisterium that needs to keep adding pages after pages of theological constructs. Because all those long books will be interpreted anyway.

It doesn't matter to me what some Catholics may do or think. What matters to me is what the Church teaches and that is what I conform my will to. I believe Christ left us a church with the ability and authority to teach infallibly. It makes no sense to me that God would become incarnate and then leave us to garner our best guess. Without the charism of infallibility I really have no reason to believe anybody which is why I categorically reject the teachings of sola scripturists. It's their own confession that betrays them. I'm not going to substitute the infallible dogma of Transubstantiation for the various teachings of communion presented to us by self-professed fallible sola scripturists.

 

[mluiesp]

It doesn't matter to me what some Catholics may do or think. What matters to me is what the Church teaches and that is what I conform my will to. I believe Christ left us a church with the ability and authority to teach infallibly. It makes no sense to me that God would become incarnate and then leave us to garner our best guess. Without the charism of infallibility I really have no reason to believe anybody which is why I categorically reject the teachings of sola scripturists. It's their own confession that betrays them. I'm not going to substitute the infallible dogma of Transubstantiation for the various teachings of communion presented to us by self-professed fallible sola scripturists.

And how do you know you are right? Because those other Catholics also think that they are right and following the real teachings of the Magisterium, while you are too liberal for some and too conservative for some others.

And, as we are at it, what's the substance of bread? (no pun intended) Its chemistry? Is there something metaphysical about bread?

 

[Souldier]

For myself, that verse isn't locked in the past but has a current and very real relevance in my everyday life. You see, as Jeremiah prophesized, I do have a shepherd in my pastor who offers me and everyone else in his flock excellent pastoral care.

I'm sorry if your not blessed by the same.

WHat do i need a pastor for? I have a bible. Where do you think pastor learns from? The bible.

At least i know that i will be following Paul and the Lord instead of a man who may or may not be following the Lord. Jeremiah also prophesied that God would put His laws in our heart and minds. Why dont you believe that scripture as well?

 

[Souldier]

THe mistake we make is in following pastors. They are not any more equipped to learn than we are. They are just fallible men just like us. THey may have a pure heart and they may not. If not then they will surely lead us astray. This is the absolute truth. Your heart is what matters and God will teach us. Its his promise.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Does that include John the Baptist having at least seven heads? I am not saying it is a dogma, but it is a provable fact that the Catholic Church venerates seven skulls (or parts thereof) of John the Baptist.

The Catholic Church has no dogma or doctrine about venerating body parts. There is a cult that does that, but it's not required. If there are seven parts, they can be of one skull though, or hadn't you thought of that???

There are also many, many pieces of the True Cross.

But what does that have to do with what I said?

 

[Root of Jesse]

So, do I understand you correctly in characterising MoreCoffee's characterization that the Protestant ToC is an extrabiblical dogma, but the Catholic ToC is a biblical dogma? When, prior to 1577 was the dogma of your ToC first established?

Dogmatically, as in written in stone, at Trent. But actually, when the Councils of Hippo and Carthage were held, they actually asked the Pope to ratify the findings, thus making them universally held. So as early as 350 or so.

 

[Root of Jesse]

That is one of the really difficult things than many denominationalists stumble over. They assume that people join church because of some persuasion by other people. However, for many of us, it is through our personal study of the Bible and not a denominational influence.

Denominations do have this issue, but the Catholic Church, being the Church, does not. I joined the Church as a result of studying Scripture and the writings of the Early Church Fathers, and much much more. I'm still studying. I will continue to study.