Is Scripture MISSING Dogmas? (2)

[SpyderByte]

Assuming that you're a former Catholic, the collective testimony of persons who leave the Church isn't that compelling. They tend to bounce from denomination to denomination until they find one that agrees with themselves or they become completely unattached to any concrete faith community creating, essentially, a denomination of one.

Care to back up this off topic assertion?

 

[tadoflamb]

Care to back up this off topic assertion?

Their testimonies, like themselves, are scattered all over CF. In this thread the OP left the Church to become Lutheran, RickOtto left the Church to practice his singular version of Christianity and as for yourself, assuming you once were graced with the gift of being Catholic, have landed in a denomination which appears to have Calvinist leanings. Not really a compelling testimony to the unity of the Body which we read about in the Sacred Scriptures.

One thing you all have in common, however, is that leaving the Church seems to be your greatest moment of self-determination.

Now, how about that dogma where the Church and Christ are not one? You seem so convinced, surely your denomination has dogmatically defined it for us.

 

[tadoflamb]

Just one.

How about just one dogma formulated by sola scripturists unique to the tradition of sola scriptura?

Just one.

 

[SpyderByte]

Their testimonies, like themselves, are scattered all over CF. In this thread the OP left the Church to become Lutheran, RickOtto left the Church to practice his singular version of Christianity and as for yourself, assuming you once were graced with the gift of being Catholic, have landed in a denomination which appears to have Calvinist leanings. Not really a compelling testimony to the unity of the Body which we read about in the Sacred Scriptures.

One thing you all have in common, however, is that leaving the Church seems to be your greatest moment of self-determination.

Now, how about that dogma where the Church and Christ are not one? You seem so convinced, surely your denomination has dogmatically defined it for us.

I meant with actual facts not more assertions. But rc's tend to be quick with the assertions and slow with the facts...

 

[tadoflamb]

I meant with actual facts not more assertions. But rc's tend to be quick with the assertions and slow with the facts...

Fact: The OP was once Catholic is now a Lutheran
Fact: RickOtto was once Catholic is now not affiliated with any denomination
Fact: Albion was once Catholic is now Anglican

See the pattern?

Fact: Person leaving the Catholic Church do not all turn up in the same denomination with the same beliefs and practices. If they did, their collective testimony would be more compelling, but they didn't, so it's not.


Now, here's an assertion: Sola scripturist have no dogma unique to their tradition to which all sola scripturists assent.

Here's another assertion: Sola scripturists have failed to define dogma.

And here's my final assertion: Sola scripturists are incapable of defining dogma.

 

[topcare]

Just one.

How about just one dogma formulated by sola scripturists unique to the tradition of sola scriptura?

Just one.

How about this one for sola scriptureist: Thou shalt make up thy own thing. Pretty prevalent dogma in many evangelical camps even though those here will deny it like always

 

[Root of Jesse]

Ah! The familiar appeal to Sola Scriptura.

Unfortunately, you might have to rely on judicial tradition wherein facts speak for themselves.

Well, show it to me anywhere that has authority, how about that?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Typicaly, your criticism is of solo scriptura, not sola scriptura.
Solo is using the bible as sole source for info, whereas sola, uses the bible only for verification, not just a source.

But you have already "privately interpreted" The RCC as your "safe room".
No need to make fine distinctions about the "exo Romana".

If that's the case, then the Catholic Church is also sola scriptura. But I don't believe it to be the case. At any rate, Scripture is used for verification of all Catholic dogmas, except for the TOC. We make sure no Catholic dogma goes against Scripture.

 

[Root of Jesse]

He did not say she was without sin. That is wishful thinking born of logical extremes.

Full of grace...if you're full of grace you have no room for sin.

 

[Rick Otto]

Their testimonies, like themselves, are scattered all over CF. In this thread the OP left the Church to become Lutheran, RickOtto left the Church to practice his singular version of Christianity and as for yourself, assuming you once were graced with the gift of being Catholic, have landed in a denomination which appears to have Calvinist leanings. Not really a compelling testimony to the unity of the Body which we read about in the Sacred Scriptures.

One thing you all have in common, however, is that leaving the Church seems to be your greatest moment of self-determination.

Now, how about that dogma where the Church and Christ are not one? You seem so convinced, surely your denomination has dogmatically defined it for us.

Your assessment of the testimony isn't compelling either. Mostly self-serving oversimplification.
The Church is not Christ, tho they are united.
You have simply guessed wrong about which church is His.
You seem a little too happy with your choice, as if you couldn't deal with the responsibility of understanding on your own, so you settled for giving that responsibility to what you privately interpret as unquestionably right.
The fact that your church is an actual kingdom of this world is lost on you.
So you demand dogma that can beat up your dogma.
One thing "you all" have in common is choosing to abdicate personal responsibility and abandoning self-determination

 

[Root of Jesse]

...As if that isn't itself a "judgement of people's hearts".

And "non-Catholic" in this case, means even the viewpoint of a college history professor who has authored about 30 books, one of which is titled "Why I Am Catholic".
In other words, if it doesn't agree with the magesterium, you won't accept it.

I just rolled my eyes so hard I saw my brain.

Yes, because your "college history professor who has authored about 30 books" is not authoritative.
I don't judge your heart, I judge what you say and how you say it. Your actions, in other words.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Yes, for you it was dogmatized by the Council of Trent. Thus, MoreCoffee's contention that the ToC is an unbiblical Protestant dogma is rather curious. We Protestants, as you know, have never held an ecumenical council to proclaim dogma.

Right, which is why it's hard to pin you down on what you believe.

But you mischaracterized More Coffee's contention. He said that the TOC of 66 books is an unbiblical Protestant dogma. You see, dogma does not come only when it is etched in stone at an ecumenical council. It is certainly defined there, but all our dogmas have been held since early on.

 

[Rick Otto]

Full of grace...if you're full of grace you have no room for sin.

Yep, that's what I meant by logical extremes.

Show me what scripture says anyone full of grace has no room for sin.

You can't. All you can show is scripture from which you leaped to arrive at your desired conclusion

 

[Root of Jesse]

That seems rather schizophrenic to me - holding personal beliefs which conflict with your peronsal faith. I do not have the problem. It helps that I do not have to conform to a denomination with dogmas quite outside my own personal views.

You don't have the problem because if it's hard for you to grasp, you toss it out the window. My personal views, and yours, for that matter do not matter one whit. Only Christ's matter, and those of the Church he entrusted to carry them forward. See, Jerome's personal view, for a time, was against the Deuterocanon. But he submitted to proper authority while he struggled, and when all was said and done, he didn't need to struggle anymore. My personal beliefs do not conflict with my faith. Actions do, at times, and struggling to reconcile them has its challenges. But I trust my Church to be right. And I cannot see where they have ever been wrong in matters of faith and morals. So when there's a 'conflict', my Mother is always right.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I know people will not understand this and will be offended alittle. It's not anything bad however, its just the truth. WE should never follow a Church. We should follow the scripture and the Lord within. Both Revelation 3 and Paul's revelation as well warn us about apostasy in the Church. Its just not wise to follow a Church. Christ promised that if we would keep His words then the spirit would teach us. Why don't people believe this? When Paul said that the Lord sent apostles and teachers he was referring to Him and the other apostles and teachers who established the Church. Perhaps some churches have good teachers, but there is no guarantee that a Church has good teachers. For this reason we must follow the scriptures for our self.

This is Gods plan, it must be because why else would he say the things found in the scripture below? One might even argue that denying this truth may actually be breaking the covenant that God made. See Jeremiah below. The promise of the spirit is a sign of the New Covenant! Is the Church blind in these last days? We cannot deny the truth in these scriptures. We must embrace this truth.


Jeremiah 33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”


John 14:2 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.
25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.


1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received from Him abideth in you, and ye have no need that any man teach you. But as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.

Mathew 23:8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Who told you that what you believe is the truth? Anyone with authority?

 

[Rick Otto]

Right, which is why it's hard to pin you down on what you believe.

But you mischaracterized More Coffee's contention. He said that the TOC of 66 books is an unbiblical Protestant dogma. You see, dogma does not come only when it is etched in stone at an ecumenical council. It is certainly defined there, but all our dogmas have been held since early on.

That is the myth "early on".
Part of the method of propagating that is to develope a schizophrenia about only the magesterium being "the church" as if the members are intellectually disposable when it serves the point.

I feel no need to be pinned down, but I know it makes a lot of people feel safer when pinned & when pinning.

 

[Root of Jesse]

How can they "dociley accept the teachings" they create? It's the old question of authority all over again. How can the rcc claim to be under scripture and tradition when it determines what those are?

No teachings created by anyone but Christ and his apostles, and their successors.

 

[Rick Otto]

Who told you that what you believe is the truth? Anyone with authority?

Your idea of what is and who has authority is "less than compelling".
Read psalm 19. Get back to me when understand it.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Yep, that's what I meant by logical extremes.

Show me what scripture says anyone full of grace has no room for sin.

You can't. All you can show is scripture from which you leaped to arrive at your desired conclusion

I can tell you that those with any grace worry about sin. I can tell you that someone who is full of grace has no room for anything else but grace, just as a glass full of water has no room for anything else. The grammar of the Greek word translated as full of grace shows that it always was and always would be true. Sort of like "As it was in the beginning is now, and ever shall be."

 

[Root of Jesse]

That is the myth "early on".
Part of the method of propagating that is to develope a schizophrenia about only the magesterium being "the church" as if the members are intellectually disposable when it serves the point.

I feel no need to be pinned down, but I know it makes a lot of people feel safer when pinned & when pinning.

Your faith is very warm, fuzzy, and comfortable. Convenient for you. But that's not what Christ preached.