Why does everyone hate Mary so much?

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Perhaps. Though to call any mother the equivalent of a "vessel" would, at least in some circles, be considered misogynistic ... and that is an area that would at least skid toward the idea of 'hatred'.

And that matter could be explored here ...

Here's what is stunning to ME...... Someone writes that Mary bore Jesus, that Mary is the mother of Jesus - and Catholics (and less so, Orthodox) seem to get all hurt, offended, angry... But here is a thread, begun by a Catholic, boldly and dogmatically insisting that EVERYONE HATES Mary.... telling me that I specifically HATE her - and that's okay...... no Catholic or Orthodox seems to have any problem with this Catholic posting that.... no Staff has an issue with Catholics telling all Protestants (dogmatically) that we all HATE her.... no problem. Do you see a double standard there?

Friend, to dogmatically INSIST that I "HATE" Mary is much worse than saying I specifically HATE my mother or sister or girlfriend... not entirely unrelated to saying I specifically HATE Jesus. Yet.... no Catholic, no Orthodox seems to have a problem with that. But, if some Protestant wrote that Catholics specifically and particularly HATE Mary (stated as a dogmatic fact), well...... we all know! Shouts, warnings, infractions, "clean ups", thread closings, etc., etc., etc. This double standard has been entrenched at CF for several years now....

Oh well....






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[rockytopva]

There is one scriptural passage that may justify the Catholic and Orthodox view of the Holy Mother Mary...

1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. - Rev 12

 

[Albion]

Perhaps. Though to call any mother the equivalent of a "vessel" would, at least in some circles, be considered misogynistic ... and that is an area that would at least skid toward the idea of 'hatred'.

That's ridiculous. But go ahead and explain to us how she gave birth, physically, to the baby Jesus and let us see how you do so without using any technical words but just ones that are glorious and supernal. Heck, some people won't even mention that the birth of Jesus (not the conception but the birth) was accomplished in the same way that our mothers gave birth to us, so they have to invent elusive theories that, somehow, Jesus came through Mary's side with no visible effects--or that she remained a virgin after giving birth in every biological way, but with no actual use of "those words."

But that doesn't stop the same people from demanding the we reformed Christians describe the same events as literally as possible...and then smear us for having done what they asked!

And by the way, describing Mary as an "Ark" (as has been done many times by members of the unreformed churches here) doesn't strike me as all that uplifting an image, either, if compared with "vessel." But no matter, since it came from the word police themselves.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

There is one scriptural passage that may justify the Catholic and Orthodox view of the Holy Mother Mary...

1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. - Rev 12

1. No mention of Mary.... at all. For or about anything.

2. I don't see anything here about whether Mary and Joseph had relations after Jesus was born, whether or not Mary was conceived without original sin, whether or not Mary's body was assumed into heaven at the microsecond of her death (or undeath).....

I think the Luke account stating that all generations will call her "blessed" gives support for honoring her as the mother of Jesus. But nothing to confirm the various Marian Dogmas (the last so declared in 1950).

And I find nothing to support the dogmatic insistence of this thread that ALL Protestants specifically, particularly HATE Mary, which is the subject of this thread. IMO, Revelation 12 does not confirm that statement.




That's MY perspective....


Pax


- Josiah






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[tadoflamb]

Where... Where in scripture do we have commandment to pray or do homage to the Holy Mother Mary

Here:

Behold your mother. (John 17-27)

 

[tadoflamb]

2. I don't see anything here

The ultimate decree of the sola scripturist.

 

[Albion]

Here:

Behold your mother means to do homage, pray to, or call her "the Blessed Virgin Mary?"

Can you possibly be serious, or was this some kind of joke that I missed?

 

[rockytopva]

Here:

Behold your mother...

He said that to John the Apostle... He also said of Mary... behold your son...

26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home. - John 19

From that day on... Mary was John's mother.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Behold your mother means to do homage, pray to, or call her "the Blessed Virgin Mary?"

Can you possibly be serious, or was this some kind of joke that I missed?

Friend, the words "Behold your mother" --- it's ALL right there, for heaven's sake, clear as a bell, obvious as the nose on your face, right there in phantom, invisible, non-existent words!!!!! Mary was a PERPETUAL virgin, Mary was conceived without original sin, Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven at the microsecond of her death (or was it undeath?) - it's ALL RIGHT THERE, right in front of you, clear as a bell, for all who can read invisible, phantom, nonexistent words!!

Friend..... here's the problem. You assume that truth matters..... and that telling the truth about someone has a LOT to do with loving them, respecting them, holding them in esteem. You think it matters if what is stated (especially DOGMATICALLY) is true or not. But this is something many don't share.




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah





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[Thekla]

That's ridiculous. But go ahead and explain to us how she gave birth, physically, to the baby Jesus and let us see how you do so without using any technical words but just ones that are glorious and supernal. Heck, some people won't even mention that the birth of Jesus (not the conception but the birth) was accomplished in the same way that our mothers gave birth to us, so they have to invent elusive theories that, somehow, Jesus came through Mary's side with no visible effects--or that she remained a virgin after giving birth in every biological way, but with no actual use of "those words."

But that doesn't stop the same people from demanding the we reformed Christians describe the same events as literally as possible...and then smear us for having done what they asked!

And by the way, describing Mary as an "Ark" (as has been done many times by members of the unreformed churches here) doesn't strike me as all that uplifting an image, either, if compared with "vessel." But no matter, since it came from the word police themselves.

Maybe it's ridiculous to males only

I don't find the understanding that she remained a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Jesus "misogynistic" at all.

But really, to call someone a vessel (which is not the same as making a connection with the Ark, as it is a poetic illustration of a spiritual fact) is a problem.

Would anyone call any mother a "vessel" ?

 

[Albion]

Friend, the words "Behold your mother" --- it's ALL right there, for heaven's sake, clear as a bell, obvious as the nose on your face, right there in phantom, invisible, non-existent words!!!!! Mary was a PERPETUAL virgin, Mary was conceived without original sin, Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven at the microsecond of her death (or was it undeath?) - it's ALL RIGHT THERE, right in front of you, clear as a bell, for all who can read invisible, phantom, nonexistent words!!

Oh dear. Am I embarrassed! I had thought that "behold" meant to look upon or, perhaps, to look upon upon with appreciation.

 

[Thekla]

Here's what is stunning to ME...... Someone writes that Mary bore Jesus, that Mary is the mother of Jesus - and Catholics (and less so, Orthodox) seem to get all hurt, offended, angry... But here is a thread, begun by a Catholic, boldly and dogmatically insisting that EVERYONE HATES Mary.... telling me that I specifically HATE her - and that's okay...... no Catholic or Orthodox seems to have any problem with this Catholic posting that.... no Staff has an issue with Catholics telling all Protestants (dogmatically) that we all HATE her.... no problem. Do you see a double standard there?

Friend, to dogmatically INSIST that I "HATE" Mary is much worse than saying I specifically HATE my mother or sister or girlfriend... not entirely unrelated to saying I specifically HATE Jesus. Yet.... no Catholic, no Orthodox seems to have a problem with that. But, if some Protestant wrote that Catholics specifically and particularly HATE Mary (stated as a dogmatic fact), well...... we all know! Shouts, warnings, infractions, "clean ups", thread closings, etc., etc., etc. This double standard has been entrenched at CF for several years now....

Oh well....






.

At CF, folks propose things, and then they get discussed.

Myself, I read the op as an hyperbolic representation of a concern that may have some basis ... and that's what the subsequent discussion turned to ...

And it seems the matter is, for the most part, settled.

But the implied misogyny of the terminology "vessel" is, I think, worth considering.

 

[Thekla]

Oh dear. Am I embarrassed! I had thought that "behold" meant to look upon or, perhaps, to look upon upon with appreciation.

Not really, in Scriptural usage; this can be determined by comparing it's use in the various passages (and context) where it occurs.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Oh dear. Am I embarrassed! I had thought that "behold" meant to look upon or, perhaps, to look upon upon with appreciation.

Because... [employing obvious satire]

1. You are not paying attention to all the phantom, invisible words that aren't there!!!!! IF you would, then it's ALL THERE, big as all day, obvious as the nose on your face! Silly you....

2. You seem to have this silly idea that truth matters.... and that when we love, esteem, honor a person - we want to tell the TRUTH about them (even perhaps holding that spreading rumors - as DOGMA - is not only wrong but even sinful, and you want to avoid sin?).





Well.... back to the evidence that all Protestants specifically HATE Mary..... And I might add, why it's okay for Catholics to say that about Protestants but not Protestants about Catholics?




Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





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[Thekla]

This might be helpful; it's a list of all (NT) passages where idou is used:

Greek Lexicon :: G2400 (KJV)

(Note especially the use in the Johannine Scriptures)

 

[topcare]

I think you are confusing refusal to pray to her with lack of respect. I think that while some protestants may have some hate they should not have, it is seldom, if ever, directed at Mary; instead it is directed at church traditions that give Mary a veneration they feel go beyond what should be given to a normal human being such as Mary. Its not Mary, its you, not that such hate is ever justified.

Not at all. I noticed that is a standard response though, I know what I see and the contempt in words that are posted

 

[topcare]

Where... Where in scripture do we have commandment to pray or do homage to the Holy Mother Mary

55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? - Matthew 13:55-56

The Virgin Mary was indeed a virgin on up until Jesus birth... But after that she had children! So from that point on she was no longer a virgin, yet still mother to the Lord Jesus.

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. - John 2:4

In the roster of saints Apostles and Evangelists are on top of the list. And I would say the Mother Mary in there with them somewhere. But I have no scripture to exalt her any higher than that.

Where in Scripture does it say view the Seven real Churches in Revelations as metaphorical as f they are seven ages. There are many things that Christians do that are not in Scripture. In this case though Saints can pray for us, most Protestants don't get it that when the Christians body dies the Christian never dies that is why it says i Hebrews

And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us Heb 12:1 Emphasis added

and praying to someone is just making a request. Every time one of you ask for prayer your praying to us to pray to God for you, the problem is some Protestants distort things so s to make them only mean one thing.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Where in Scripture does it say view the Seven real Churches in Revelations as metaphorical as f they are seven ages. There are many things that Christians do that are not in Scripture

And they should be rejected, as should the metaphorical as if seven ages teaching.

 

[Albion]

And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head

...which does not say anything about praying to them.

How easily presumptions, speculations, or unconnected ideas are employed in an attempt to make scripture "fit."

most Protestants don't get it that when the Christians body dies the Christian never dies that is why it says i Hebrews

I beg your pardon! "Most Protestants" certainly do believe that when a Christian's body dies his spirit does not. Don't just pass along myths like that thinking we won't notice.

 

[topcare]

And they should be rejected, as should the metaphorical as if seven ages teaching.

Not quite so my good man. If you want to reject pray than make sure never to ask for prayer and make sure that any prayer request forums go away. Asking someone to pray for you is praying to them and those Christians that went home are still very much alive