Does the Bible teach that obedience is expected after salvation?

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Doctor Octavius

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I don’t know about you, but if I were to disobey the Road Law where I maybe wilfully drive over the speed limit by 1 or 2Km per hour then I hardly think that this would be in the same category as ‘fornication, idolatry, homosexuality, slanderers or swindlers’, you know what, that might just be a Scripture!

This is human reasoning, not scriptural reasoning. There is no basis for Catholic "mortal" or other such sins, and your concept of "grievous" sins is just semantics. It's the same concept. All sins keep us from God, thus making salvation according to our merits impossible:

Jas_2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

If you think this is only a question of "Christians who just take a paperclip" vs. "henious" sins like murder or pedophilia and the like, then you don't realize your real danger here: because every time you lie ,every time you curse at another ,every time you covet your neighbor's wife, looking at women to lust after them, you become a liar, a murderer and an adulterer in the eyes of God, even without physically committing them, and all of these condemn you to hell. Instead of being afraid of taking an extra paperclip, you should think about all the sins you commit every day of your life, and what these mean about you. And if you do steal something from another, no matter how "minor" you think it is, do we call you a minor thief? Even small-time thieves go to hell.

When Paul called himself a "wretched man," he certainly cannot be a person who deserves heaven. And if he doesn't deserves heaven, why should you?

It appears that you are confusing the fruit of the Spirit with works as they are two completely different things;

They are, in fact, the same thing:

Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 
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razzelflabben

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I never said he did not learn obedience, after all, he was born under the elementals, see Gal 4.

So, is the resurrected Christ, sitting on the throne, thinking about obedeince all day?:o

Don't forget, he rose after dying to the elementals.
As you were shown in Heb. the elementary is what leads us to the perfection (aka obedience) so nothing in this post reflects what I have shown you in scripture. I'll wait contently for you to address what I have been showing you.
 
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razzelflabben

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grow by rule keeping? Te text says, God causes the growth.
First, obedience isn't "law keeping" it is an act of Love for the Lord of Lords and King of Kings....John 14:15; John 14:21; I John 2:3; II John 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.


You are trying to make it legalistic, when it is driven out of Love....

Second, I have repeatedly said that this obedience is not possible in our power alone, but requires the HS power within...which means that again, you are misrepresenting what I have said.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I think discipline is needed and develops naturally as we walk with him daily .. obedience has been toxified as a word to sound too old testament .. this doesn't need to be so . but in general the word usage definition seems to be the one people disagree with the most .
 
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Many take the freedom in the New Covenant to mean that any kind of obedience is in itself sinful; that it violates the principle of "faith alone."
 
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razzelflabben

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I think discipline is needed and develops naturally as we walk with him daily .. obedience has been toxified as a word to sound too old testament .. this doesn't need to be so . but in general the word usage definition seems to be the one people disagree with the most .

maturing in the faith, righteousness, without sin, obedient, etc. they all mean the same darn thing.
 
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razzelflabben

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Many take the freedom in the New Covenant to mean that any kind of obedience is in itself sinful; that it violates the principle of "faith alone."
and yet scriptures says...

James 2:17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.


Gal. 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

I am assuming everyone here knows that the OT law was replaced by the NT law of Love (John 13:34)

James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

I Thess. 1:3 We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.


James 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

IOW's faith and works are part of one another. That is why we cannot be obedient without the working of the HS in our lives, nor can the HS make us righteous without us putting forth some effort as scriptures tells us to do.
 
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Many take the freedom in the New Covenant to mean that any kind of obedience is in itself sinful; that it violates the principle of "faith alone."

thankfully i am not bound to the sola laws . but it also may be the way the word obedience is being used in sentences . whenever obedience is used .. it tends to have the appearance of judaizing as illustrated in Galatians .. not that it necessarily has to .. it just comes off that way .. usually for the same reasons there are thousands of denominations .
 
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Biblicist

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When Paul called himself a "wretched man," he certainly cannot be a person who deserves heaven. And if he doesn't deserves heaven, why should you?
Oh, that’s an easy one. I’ve been redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb where I have been united to Christ through the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit – ‘do I deserve heaven’, of course I do, as do all those who have been redeemed through his Blood and who have carefully ‘worked out their Salvation’, that’s Bible 101.

This is human reasoning, not scriptural reasoning. There is no basis for Catholic "mortal" or other such sins, and your concept of "grievous" sins is just semantics. It's the same concept. All sins keep us from God, thus making salvation according to our merits impossible:
“All sins keep us from God”?, I think that deep down you are really trying to say that no sins keep you from God. You seem to have a strange fixation with equating our ‘works’ as Christians with the fruit of the Spirit, this has me more than just a bit bewildered. Once you can grasp this vitally important difference then things might begin to fall into place for you.

If you think this is only a question of "Christians who just take a paperclip" vs. "henious" sins like murder or pedophilia and the like, then you don't realize your real danger here: because every time you lie ,every time you curse at another ,every time you covet your neighbor's wife, looking at women to lust after them, you become a liar, a murderer and an adulterer in the eyes of God, even without physically committing them, and all of these condemn you to hell. Instead of being afraid of taking an extra paperclip, you should think about all the sins you commit every day of your life, and what these mean about you. And if you do steal something from another, no matter how "minor" you think it is, do we call you a minor thief? Even small-time thieves go to hell.
Okay, you’ve just made the declaration that every Christian who has taken a paperclip from work or for that matter where they’ve used a company pen to sign a personal letter (which is stealing ink) will go to hell – a bit extreme don’t you think.

I’m not all that sure if you have an incredible level of ongoing guilt that you are maybe unable to shake off but you need to understand that every time a Christian admires a woman or where he on the occasion may even allow his thoughts to wander a bit more, that even though the Spirit may at times speak to us on this matter and even bring us to task with some of our thoughts and careless actions, that if these things do not go beyond what the Lord (not you or I) would deem to be acceptable then we will not all be cast into hell. If we choose to murder, rape or become involved in paedophilia then I have little doubt the Lord will allow the civil authorities to deal with such a person as we would in all probability be unredeemable.

As for worrying about trying to tally up all my sins at the end of the day, where undoubtedly I will even fail to recognise all of them, then I can be thankful that I have the sense to realise that there will be some things that will go way beyond crossing the line. As I do not have to bother with wondering at the end of the day, “Oh, maybe I shouldn’t have robbed that bank or maybe committed murder before lunch” then I can leave those issues to those who regularly go to light a candle for their sins. As for me, there will undoubtedly always be those things and thoughts that can certainly restrict a healthy relationship with the Lord, but through obedience to both his Word and the leading of the Spirit then I will be better able to cast off those things that cause these blocks.


My comment: "It appears that you are confusing the fruit of the Spirit with works as they are two completely different things";

Your reply: They are, in fact, the same thing:

Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
This is something that you definitely need to work out. Maybe this type of reasoning comes from certain denominational thinking that has little understanding of the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the Believer. God certainly does not ‘ordain’ that we are to think good thoughts or that we are to do what is right before the Lord. These are our decisions to make where they are made from within a heart that has been renewed by the Spirit of God.

This could be the reason that traditional Calvinism (not so much with New Calvinism) is regularly deemed to be cold and unmoving where it encourages a mindset that is focused not on the Word or the Spirit but on human reasoning where growth is not measured by our obedience to the Word and the Spirit but to human precepts and regulations.

By confusing works with the fruit of the Spirit as you are doing, this will always be a serious stumbling block for those who think along such lines.
 
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Alithis

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Originally Posted by Alithis View Post

and then tell me .. im in a supermarket ,i'm about to buy some beers because i have always had that liberty to drink .(but avoid being drunken) and the holy Spirit speaks to my heart (he is my Sheppards voice -he only speaks that which he hears from the father ) And he says to me ..do not buy that ...
Do i go ahead and buy it ?-if so why?
Do i listen and obey ? - if so , why ?



Nope you don't then you go write a book about the experience then start a denomination that is anti-drinking beer (probably US beer) then travel about how you're life has changed because you stopped drinking beer, then pick up a habit of drinking hard alcohol under the table then start a TV ministry while owning stocks in a beer company.

Could just be me who thinks this though. :D

??? you haven't answered the question .. all this theology is useless without application.
let me ask again .. (not directed at you alone )

  • tell me
.. im in a supermarket ,i'm about to buy some beers because i have always had that liberty to drink .(but avoid being drunken) and the holy Spirit speaks to my heart (he is my Sheppards voice -he only speaks that which he hears from the father ) And he says to me ..do not buy that ...
Do i go ahead and buy it ?-if so why?

Do i listen and obey ? - if so , why ?

lets get applicable with the topic .

this is not only an imagined scenario
 
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StephanieSomer

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But let's look even deeper in scripture....what about friendship with the Christ? According to scripture, we are only friends with Christ if we obey what He commands. And so obedience is yet again important to a healthy and happy relationship with the living God. And who are we (all inclusive) to question God on the matter? Who are we to tell the potter that he was mistaken to command obedience to the One who knows us better than we know ourselves and Loves us unto righteousness?


You have the elements backwards. Obedience doesn't come before the relationship. It is the result OF the relationship.

It's not that "we are only friends with Christ if we obey what He commands", it's that we WILL, by nature, be obedient IF we have a relationship with Him.

The way you have them makes it all dependent on the believer to be obedient to remain saved. That isn't Scriptural.

He didn't command obedience to remain in Christ. He was saying we WILL be obedient IF we remain in Christ. The "remaining" is done through faith.
 
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StephanieSomer

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if Christ cannot be tempted to sin, why then was He tempted


As a part of His earthly ministry, yes, He was tempted. However, I wasn't referring to His earthly ministry. I was referring to His current status, AFTER resurrection. He no longer CAN be tempted, He has defeated sin.

And, that exact same nature which He now lives can be MINE, through faith. While I remain in faith of God's promise to give me a new nature, I am as immune to sin's temptation as Christ is NOW. If this is not true, then God's promise was a lie.
 
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StephanieSomer

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this obedience is not possible in our power alone,


I take issue with this. I would leave out the word "alone". We cannot be obedient at all, even with help. It requires a brand new nature. HIS nature. In HIS nature, we are not only ABLE to be obedient, it requires no extra effort. It doesn't require yielding, or striving, or anything like that at all. It is the natural result of the new nature.
 
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Doctor Octavius

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Oh, that’s an easy one. I’ve been redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb where I have been united to Christ through the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit – ‘do I deserve heaven’, of course I do, as do all those who have been redeemed through his Blood and who have carefully ‘worked out their Salvation’, that’s Bible 101.

You keep quoting that verse. It does not mean what you are claiming it means (to paraphrase Indigo Montoya):

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Note the following verse, "for it is God" that is, this is the reason for our "fear and trembling" in the former, "which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." God's working within us both to will and to do is the reason for the former verse. It is telling us that our will, that is, our desires, our faith, our yearning to do good, and our actions ("to do"), are wrought in us by God.

This is only confirmation of what I had been saying before: that our good works are wrought in us by God.

Furthermore, to "work out your own salvation" does not mean "earn our salvation," nor is it the cause of "God's willing and working," because the grace of God can't be earned by our working:

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Since the ability to "work out our own salvation" is directly the result of God "working in us both to will and to do," then the "business of our life" that we should work out (as the Syriac translation reads this phrase) is a matter plainly of grace.

The meaning of the phrase "work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God who works in you both to will and to do" is that we ought with humility to pursue our Christian walk, as it is the Divine who makes us what we are.

If you say that we must "work out our own salvation," that is, to complete the work of God (which is of grace), or to cause Him to give His gifts to us, then you contradict the Apostle who says "him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace."

In a sense we might say that men are saved by merits, but not our own merits (we are full of sin), but only God's. I like how Augustine puts it:

“All our good merits are only wrought in us by grace, and -when God crowns our merits, he crowns nothing but his own gifts. (Augustine, Letter 194)

“Have just men, then, no merits? Certainly they have, because they are righteous. But they were not made righteous by merits. For they are made righteous when they are justified, but as the apostle says, they are justified freely by his grace.” (Ibid)

You seem to have a strange fixation with equating our ‘works’ as Christians with the fruit of the Spirit,

I have already proven that our good works are part of that fruit of the Spirit. You did not address the scripture, so the "fixation" is your refusal to deal with the scripture.

Okay, you’ve just made the declaration that every Christian who has taken a paperclip from work or for that matter where they’ve used a company pen to sign a personal letter (which is stealing ink) will go to hell – a bit extreme don’t you think.

I did not say that every Christian will go to hell-- obviously this whole time I have been preaching grace. If you're going around stealing pens when people do not want you to, you are still a thief, even if it is only a minor inconvenience to the former owner, and if we are to get to heaven dependent on our lives being acceptable to God, clearly no thieves will enter heaven.

I already proved that there are no specific classes of sins, as one sin makes you guilty of the whole, thus requiring either perfection to save us according to our works, or the grace of God to forgive us of our manifold faults.

The latter is clearly the position of the scripture, as Paul does not claim that he is guilty only of "venial sins," (your non-grievous/non-mortal sins), but is a "wretched" man living within a body of death:

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Now Paul was clearly righteous as far as we judge men to be righteous, but he understood that his sin was great within him, and that he could not merit heaven by his own willing and working. A "wretched man" is clearly "crossing the line," and by the justice of God, ought to be thrown out. But we are not judged for our sins, but are forgiven for them.


I’m not all that sure if you have an incredible level of ongoing guilt that you are maybe unable to shake off but you need to understand that every time a Christian admires a woman or where he on the occasion may even allow his thoughts to wander a bit more, that even though the Spirit may at times speak to us on this matter and even bring us to task with some of our thoughts and careless actions, that if these things do not go beyond what the Lord (not you or I) would deem to be acceptable then we will not all be cast into hell.

Perhaps you are the one with the "ongoing guilt," as, besides deliberately misinterpreting me, you seem to diminish the sin of adultery/fornication in the heart by calling it "admiring" of a woman. Your admiring is, to God, covetousness and lust, and thus you are guilty as if you had done the deed.

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."
(Mat 5:27-29)

Clearly if Christ thinks that it is better to cast out your own eye into hell than to freely "admire" a woman carnally, it is not a small sin, but one worthy of condemnation. But, thank God, that we are not judged according to our works, but by Christ's works.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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I take issue with this. I would leave out the word "alone". We cannot be obedient at all, even with help. It requires a brand new nature. HIS nature. In HIS nature, we are not only ABLE to be obedient, it requires no extra effort. It doesn't require yielding, or striving, or anything like that at all. It is the natural result of the new nature.

I take issue with this as if this were the case then Jesus, Paul, Peter, John Would not have warned their audience that disobedience and fleshly living would bring consequences. If we just did what we did in the new nature there would be no need for passages like Ephesians 4-5, Col 3, etc where we are given specific examples of what the new life should look like. So no, we do not just live and breathe in the new nature, everyday we are to deny ourselves and take up our cross. The new nature gives us ultimate victory and power over the old.
 
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StephanieSomer

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I take issue with this as if this were the case then Jesus, Paul, Peter, John Would not have warned their audience that disobedience and fleshly living would bring consequences. If we just did what we did in the new nature there would be no need for passages like Ephesians 4-5, Col 3, etc where we are given specific examples of what the new life should look like. So no, we do not just live and breathe in the new nature, everyday we are to deny ourselves and take up our cross. The new nature gives us ultimate victory and power over the old.


You cannot live in both natures simultaneously. IF you live in the new nature consistently, the old nature is dead. So, yes, we CAN "just live and breathe in the new nature". For, IF we are in the new nature, the cross has already killed the old nature.

Does Christ take up the cross anymore? No, He doesn't. He took it up to die. He doesn't take it up anymore because He lives forevermore. If we take up our cross and then give up our place by not remaining in faith, then we need to take up that cross again. And so on, and so on. It's MUCH easier and better to just remain in faith and not NEED to die again and again.
 
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Alithis

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Difficult to get a straight answer..thus far its been oddky avoided..any one else feel free to dive in ...

Q. I'm in a supermarket ,i'm about to buy some beers because i have always had that liberty to drink .(but avoid being drunken) and the holy Spirit speaks to my heart (he is my Sheppards voice -he only speaks that which he hears from the father ) And he says to me ..do not buy that ...
Do i go ahead and buy it ?-if so why?

Do i listen and obey ? - if so , why ?

lets get applicable with the topic .

this is not only an imagined scenario.
 
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As you were shown in Heb. the elementary is what leads us to the perfection (aka obedience) so nothing in this post reflects what I have shown you in scripture. I'll wait contently for you to address what I have been showing you.

But was the elementary the goal? NO!

The writer wanted to move on, that is clear in the text, and is what I have said, people need to leave the training wheels behind.

You may think you corrected me, but you did not, actually you are the one not listening or reading my posts, as you accuse me of doing.

Puppies that are obedient, are still puppies.:D
 
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