Does the Bible teach that obedience is expected after salvation?

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Frogster

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First, obedience isn't "law keeping" it is an act of Love for the Lord of Lords and King of Kings....John 14:15; John 14:21; I John 2:3; II John 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.


You are trying to make it legalistic, when it is driven out of Love....

Second, I have repeatedly said that this obedience is not possible in our power alone, but requires the HS power within...which means that again, you are misrepresenting what I have said.

Living by works of law, is rule keeping, and obedience is central it has to be, after all it is a rule, and one had to be obedient or he did not get a puppy biscuit! Rules become the mode. And it is self righteousness, see Rom 10:3, and Phil 3:9 for facts. That is my point, obedience obssesed people, are not seeing God deeply, or the higher way, they just measure themselves all the time, having their own righteousness. I have shown that it was for children, Gal 3 and 4 shows this, puppies need to grow up already.


Look here at the verse, it is good puppy or bad puppy, basic elementalism. The law was for children, that is a development stage, that some are stalled in, sort of like arrested development.


It was to be just a stage, the Hebrews wanted to go backwards, not good. See, look, bad puppy gets retribution.:o

Heb 2:2 For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution,
 
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Frogster

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Waiting to hear that answer also.....what will the frog say about hearing the voice spoken to the heart?

Greetings, what I am saying is..

Where did frog ever say not to listen to God? My point is the obsession with elementalism and behavior modification.

Why the compulsive dogmatism about obedience?

It is like a child going on and on, that he brushed his teeth today. I mean fine, but really....lol.....there is more to life than that.:)
 
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Frogster

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You cannot live in both natures simultaneously. IF you live in the new nature consistently, the old nature is dead. So, yes, we CAN "just live and breathe in the new nature". For, IF we are in the new nature, the cross has already killed the old nature.

Does Christ take up the cross anymore? No, He doesn't. He took it up to die. He doesn't take it up anymore because He lives forevermore. If we take up our cross and then give up our place by not remaining in faith, then we need to take up that cross again. And so on, and so on. It's MUCH easier and better to just remain in faith and not NEED to die again and again.

do you have those verses out of Rom 1-8, that we today would not understand the same way as the recipients of the letter, in Paul's day did?
 
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Frogster

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Difficult to get a straight answer..thus far its been oddky avoided..any one else feel free to dive in ...

Q. I'm in a supermarket ,i'm about to buy some beers because i have always had that liberty to drink .(but avoid being drunken) and the holy Spirit speaks to my heart (he is my Sheppards voice -he only speaks that which he hears from the father ) And he says to me ..do not buy that ...
Do i go ahead and buy it ?-if so why?

Do i listen and obey ? - if so , why ?

lets get applicable with the topic .

this is not only an imagined scenario.

again what is the big deal? God said not to, don't, but for me, there is more to life, than coming home knowing i did not buy the beer.

Again, it is like the puppy being all excited that he did not go on the couch, like he was trained not to, after a while, so what!? I mean really, elementalism should become boring already.:yawn:
 
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I have already proven that our good works are part of that fruit of the Spirit. You did not address the scripture, so the "fixation" is your refusal to deal with the scripture.

I already proved that there are no specific classes of sins, as one sin makes you guilty of the whole, thus requiring either perfection to save us according to our works, or the grace of God to forgive us of our manifold faults.
In all honesty, when people are unable to understand the very simple differences between human works and the fruits of the Spirit then there probably is very little reason to keep the discussion going. These two things are so basic to the Christian walk that any misunderstanding with them could very well lead people into austere Calvinism.
 
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Frogster

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Paul spent his whole earlier life in Judaism, in obedience class, but look at the verses, but then he wanted something higher, living by faith, and resurrection power!.


Phil 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,

Same here, died to elementalism, to live by faith, something higher than good Paul, bad Paul.


Ga; 2;19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.


That is why Galatians shows that the law was a just a temporary stage, it was for kiddies under tutors, and govenors in chapt 3-4, but then it ended, so that the Sons would come, the mature ones after the age of obedience classes, they graduated!.:D That is a fact, that is text.
 
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Paul spent his whole earlier life in Judaism, in obedience class, but look at the verses, but then he wanted something higher, living by faith, and resurrection power!.


Phil 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,

Same here, died to elementalism, to live by faith, something higher than good Paul, bad Paul.


Ga; 2;19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.


That is why Galatians shows that the law was a just a temporary stage, it was for kiddies under tutors, and govenors in chapt 3-4, but then it ended, so that the Sons would come, the mature ones after the age of obedience classes, they graduated!.:D That is a fact, that is text.
Okay, as you appear to be talking about our conversion/initiation experience, how does this relate to walking the Christian walk in an attitude of obedience?
 
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Frogster

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Okay, as you appear to be talking about our conversion/initiation experience, how does this relate to walking the Christian walk in an attitude of obedience?

both verses were about after conversion, the life I NOW live after dying to law, and when he wrote Phil that was a late epistle, where he wanted to know him and the power, well after not being under law, well after conversion..:)
 
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Alithis

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again what is the big deal? God said not to, don't, but for me, there is more to life, than coming home knowing i did not buy the beer.

Again, it is like the puppy being all excited that he did not go on the couch, like he was trained not to, after a while, so what!? I mean really, elementalism should become boring already.:yawn:

you cheapen the relationship between others and God in an incredibly demeaning manner
i wonder have you ever experienced him speaking to you .
of course i shall obey him .. like a Dog in your eyes if you wish..
but in my eyes as my savoir my deliverer my lord and my God whom i love .for i know what ever he commands of me he does so for my absolute best .
to disobey him continually will lead me away from him and separation from him who is eternal life ..leads to eternal death .

elementalism is no more then carnal reasoning and new age fluff .have we run out of scriptures to quote against obedience to God ?..
oh wait there are none .
 
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..... hebrews was about how they should be leaving the elementals of Judaistic rituals bhind, they were stalled, or reverting backwards..to works, obedience mindsets.

The higher end, was to walk with a cleansed conscience in Hebrews, not elementalism, dead works. 9:14.


soooo
Rituals of laying on of hands, repentance, and elementary teachings were to give place to a higher meatier walk. According to Peter that would be aligning self to Him who gave His precious blood for us by applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and so on so as to continually be progressing in our walk. Those who neglect that cannot be assured of their salvation.
John says to continue in love so that also takes constant vigilance of bringing everything to Him, cleansing of the conscience takes coming to Him in prayer.

People who object to workbased obedience are looking at outward acts for the sake of human reward. The inner work takes a yeilding to the Spirit daily for His work to be wrought in us.

BUT I think that if any do the work that feeds, adds dignity, clothes, visits the downtrodden for nothing more than a reward in heaven, my bet is that they will recieve it.
 
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Frogster

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you cheapen the relationship between others and God in an incredibly demeaning manner
i wonder have you ever experienced him speaking to you .
of course i shall obey him .. like a Dog in your eyes if you wish..
but in my eyes as my savoir my deliverer my lord and my God whom i love .for i know what ever he commands of me he does so for my absolute best .
to disobey him continually will lead me away from him and separation from him who is eternal life ..leads to eternal death .

elementalism is no more then carnal reasoning and new age fluff .have we run out of scriptures to quote against obedience to God ?..
oh wait there are none .

Naaa...not demeaning, but the puppy point drives home a point, that being, if a puppy can be obedient, then it's really not the highest standard of achievement for us now, in grace. Besides, a little humor is good for the soul, don't take it so seriously.

I posted text about elementalism, it is a fact.


Even here, in the Greek it is stoicheion, elementalism, same as Gal 4:3, used for the obedience works centered life that Paul was under when in law, and it was elemental, and for a child, not the mature, and in heb 5:12 it is used also, and the writer wanted them to also go on to maturity, not be stuck in a rules centered elemental life, these are textual facts.




Hebrews 5:12Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament (MOUNCE)
12 ·

kai For

gar though
by

dia this

ho time

chronos you
ought

opheilō to
be

eimi teachers

didaskalos,
you
have

echō need

chreia of
someone

tis to
teach

didaskō you

hymeis again

palin ·

ho the

ho basic

archē elements

stoicheion ·
ho of

ho God’
s

theos revelation

logion.
·

ho ·

kai You
have
become

ginomai people
having

echō need

chreia of
milk

gala,
not

ou solid

stereos food

trophē;
 
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Frogster

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Rituals of laying on of hands, repentance, and elementary teachings were to give place to a higher meatier walk. According to Peter that would be aligning self to Him who gave His precious blood for us by applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and so on so as to continually be progressing in our walk. Those who neglect that cannot be assured of their salvation.
John says to continue in love so that also takes constant vigilance of bringing everything to Him, cleansing of the conscience takes coming to Him in prayer.

People who object to workbased obedience are looking at outward acts for the sake of human reward. The inner work takes a yeilding to the Spirit daily for His work to be wrought in us.

BUT I think that if any do the work that feeds, adds dignity, clothes, visits the downtrodden for nothing more than a reward in heaven, my bet is that they will recieve it.

Yes, amen, and works are wonderful, and if we think about it, should they be called works of obedience, or just doing what comes natural? If one has to be obedient to do a task, it may indicate that one does not really want to do it. If one just does it, great, but if everything is so obedience orientated, it makes me wonder. Some people are so caught up with living obediently, I think there dogmatism may indicate something. I say may indicate, maybe, maybe not, but quite possibly it does.

It is as though they are arguing with themselves, when they keep telling everyone, how they, the other people must be obedient. The naturally obedient ones are thinking.."well...ummmm..yeah, ok, fine no big deal, where is the argument?"


The argument might just be in the soul of the obedience people, they may be arguing with themselves, convincing themselves. Maybe...I say maybe...
 
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Frogster

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I just feel that the people who are so centered on obedience, invariably must be under a merit system because if they do not do something, they will be punished within by fear or guilt, so then when they do it, there must then be an inner reward, all indicating a law life, where rules are everything, and the merit system of law prevails. Good guy, bad guy mindset.

It's elementary, my dear Watson.

woof, woof...
 
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I just feel that the people who are so centered on obedience, invariably must be under a merit system because if they do not do something, they will be punished within by fear or guilt, so then when they do it, there must then be an inner reward, all indicating a law life, where rules are everything, and the merit system of law prevails. Good guy, bad guy mindset.

It's elementary, my dear Watson.

woof, woof...
"A merit system!" Obedience is the mark of the Spirit led believer, wilful disobedience makes us a child of darkness.
 
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Alithis

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Naaa...not demeaning, but the puppy point drives home a point, that being, if a puppy can be obedient, then it's really not the highest standard of achievement for us now, in grace. Besides, a little humor is good for the soul, don't take it so seriously.

I posted text about elementalism, it is a fact.


Even here, in the Greek it is stoicheion, elementalism, same as Gal 4:3, used for the obedience works centered life that Paul was under when in law, and it was elemental, and for a child, not the mature, and in heb 5:12 it is used also, and the writer wanted them to also go on to maturity, not be stuck in a rules centered elemental life, these are textual facts.




Hebrews 5:12Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament (MOUNCE)
12 ·

kai For

gar though
by

dia this

ho time

chronos you
ought

opheilō to
be

eimi teachers

didaskalos,
you
have

echō need

chreia of
someone

tis to
teach

didaskō you

hymeis again

palin ·

ho the

ho basic

archē elements

stoicheion ·
ho of

ho God’
s

theos revelation

logion.
·

ho ·

kai You
have
become

ginomai people
having

echō need

chreia of
milk

gala,
not

ou solid

stereos food

trophē;

Its a clanging cymbal ,technical garb without life ,without relationship .
 
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ByTheSpirit

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This is the incredibly sad thing about your argument frog. You are either obeying or disobeying. There is no in between in that regard. If God tells do something you have two options, not three or four or five, two.

Do as he says, or
Do not do as he says

You have multiple times here fought against obedience so that means you are promoting disobedience as a rule which is why your talking point is scary and sad.
 
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Naaa...not demeaning, but the puppy point drives home a point, that being, if a puppy can be obedient, then it's really not the highest standard of achievement for us now, in grace. Besides, a little humor is good for the soul, don't take it so seriously.

I posted text about elementalism, it is a fact.


Even here, in the Greek it is stoicheion, elementalism, same as Gal 4:3, used for the obedience works centered life that Paul was under when in law, and it was elemental, and for a child, not the mature, and in heb 5:12 it is used also, and the writer wanted them to also go on to maturity, not be stuck in a rules centered elemental life, these are textual facts.

Hebrews 5:12
It does seem that you have added in a fair amount of unwarranted personal opinion to this word. The word has no connection with what you have suggested which you will be able to see from the following lexical entries:

(BibleWorks 9) Friberg Lexicon:

24998 στοιχεῖον, ου, τό strictly small upright post; hence first beginning, element or principle; only plural in the NT; (1) generally, the rudimentary elements of anything, what belongs to a basic series in any field of knowledge; in grammar, the ABCs; in speech, basic sounds; in physics, the four basic elements (earth, air, fire, water); in geometry, the axioms; in philosophy, the givens; (2) as used in the NT; (a) as a religious technical term elementary doctrines, fundamental teachings, basic principles (HE 5.12; perhaps CO 2.8, 20 and GA 4.3, 9); (b) in a negative sense, humanistic teachings common to Jewish and pagan religions, involving binding traditions, taboos, prohibitions, ordinances, ceremonies, etc., teachings involving either supernatural elemental or animating spirits (probably CO 2.8, 20), or basic material elements (probably GA 4.3, 9) elements, elemental things; (c) in relation to the natural world (basic) elements, natural substances (2P 3.10, 12)​

Thayer’s Greek Lexicon
4914 stoicei/on
stoicei/on, stoiceiou, to, (from stoi/coj a row, rank, series; hence, properly, that which belongs to any stoi/coj, that of which a stoi/coj is composed; hence), "any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise; an element, first principle". The word denotes specifically:

1. the letters of the alphabet as the elements of speech, not however the written characters (which are called gra,mmata), but the spoken sounds: stoicei/on fwnh/j fwnh, avsu,nqetoj, Plato definition, p. 414 e.; to, rvw to, stoicei/on, id. Crat., p. 426 d.; stoicei/on evsti fwnh, avdiairetoj, ouv pa/sa de,, avllV evx h-j pefuke suneth, gi,gnesqai fwnh,, Aristotle, poet. 20, p. 1456{b}, 22.

2. the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe (evsti de, stoicei/on, evx ou- prw,tou gi,netai ta, gino,mena kai, eivj o` e;scaton avnalu,etai ... to, pu/r, to, u[dwr, o` avh,r, h` gh/, Diogenes Laërtius Zeno 137); so very often from Plato down, as in Tim., p. 48 b.; in the Scriptures: Sap. 7:17; 19:17; 2 Pet. 3:10,12.

3. the heavenly bodies, either as parts of the heavens, or (as others think) because in them the elements of man's life and destiny were supposed to reside; so in the earlier ecclesiastical writings: Ep. ad Diogn. 7, 2; Justin Martyr, dialog contra Trypho, 23; ta, Ouvrani,a stoicei/a, id. Apology 2, 5; stoicei/a Qeou/, created by God, Theoph. Ant. ad Autol. 1, 4; cf. Hilgenfeld, Galaterbrief, pp. 66-77. Hence, some interpreters infelicitously understand Paul's phrase ta, stoicei/a tou/ ko,smou, Gal. 4:3,9; Col. 2:8,20 , of the heavenly bodies, because times and seasons, and so sacred seasons, were regulated by the course of the sun and moon; yet in unfolding the meaning of the passage on the basis of this sense they differ widely.

4. the elements, rudiments, primary and fundamental principles (cf. our `alphabet' or `a b c') of any art, science, or discipline; e. g. of mathematics, as in the title of Euclid's well-known work; stoicei/a prw/ta kai, me,gista crh,sthj politei,aj, Isocrates, p. 18 a.; th/j avreth/j, Plutarch, de puer. educ. 16, 2; many examples are given in Passow, under the word, 4, ii., p. 1550b; (cf. Liddell and Scott, under the word, II. 3 and 4). In the N. T. we have ta, stoicei/a th/j avrch/j tw/n logi,wn tou/ Qeou/ (see avrch,, 1 b., p. 76{b} bottom), Heb. 5:12, such as are taught to nh,pioi, Heb. 5:13; ta, stoicei/a tou/ ko,smou, the rudiments with which mankind like nh,pioi were indoctrinated before the time of Christ, i. e. the elements of religions training, or the ceremonial precepts common alike to the worship of Jews and of Gentiles, Gal. 4:3,9, (and since these requirements on account of the difficulty of observing them are to be regarded as a yoke -- cf. Acts 15:10; Gal. 5:1 -- those who rely upon them are said to be dedoulwme,noi u`po, ta, stoicei/a); specifically, the ceremonial requirements especially of Jewish tradition, minutely set forth by theosophists and false teachers, and fortified by specious argument, Col. 2:8,20. The phrase ta, stoicei/a tou/ ko,smou is fully discussed by Schneckenburger in the Theolog. Jahrbücher for 1848, Part iv., p. 445ff; Neander in the Deutsche Zeitschrift f. Christl. Wissensehaft for 1850, p. 205ff; Kienlen in Reuss u. Cunitz's Beiträge zu d. theolog. Wissenschaften, vol. ii., p. 133ff; E. Schaubach, Comment. qua exponitur quid stoicei/a tou/ ko,smou in N. T. sibi velint. (Meining. 1862).*​
 
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