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Does the Bible teach that obedience is expected after salvation?

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Biblicist

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. . . and then tell me .. im in a supermarket ,i'm about to buy some beers because i have always had that liberty to drink .(but avoid being drunken) and the holy Spirit speaks to my heart (he is my Sheppards voice -he only speaks that which he hears from the father ) And he says to me ..do not buy that ...
Do i go ahead and buy it ?-if so why?
Do i listen and obey ? - if so , why ?
As we all undoubtedly fail to hear the quiet voice of the Spirit on an all too regular basis when it comes to things that are maybe not all that appropriate then you would be on safe ground.

On the other hand, if you were to verbally say to someone that you are aware that the Spirit is speaking to you on this matter but that you really don't care as it is your 'right' to drink, then this type of open declaration would in all probability open you up to some fairly serious spiritual attack.
 
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Doctor Octavius

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So the definition of "saving faith" is to love and obey Jesus Christ.

Seems problematic. It is better to say "the definition of "saving faith" is that faith which shows itself in love and obedience to Jesus Christ." To say "is to love," it seems to conflate faith with works, placing them into one mass so that we might say "we are saved by our works," thus making salvation debt for labor provided.

If salvation is not gratuitous, then it is salvation according to our merits. Works can only ever be the fruit of salvation, never its cause.
 
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Biblicist

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Seems problematic. It is better to say "the definition of "saving faith" is that faith which shows itself in love and obedience to Jesus Christ." To say "is to love," it seems to conflate faith with works, placing them into one mass so that we might say "we are saved by our works," thus making salvation debt for labor provided.

If salvation is not gratuitous, then it is salvation according to our merits. Works can only ever be the fruit of salvation, never its cause.
Without wishing to put words into MoreCoffee's mouth, as the process of Salvation is continual, in that we "were saved but are being saved" then a demonstration of ones love and obedience to Christ is not a work but a fruit of the Spirit.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Does the Bible teach that obedience is expected after salvation?

No. The bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus Christ obey him. Jesus himself said it "If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and remain in his love." (John 15: 10). So the definition of "saving faith" is to love and obey Jesus Christ.
1 John 4:7-21 Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God. 8 Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this way the love of God was revealed to us: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might have life through him. 10 In this is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as expiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also must love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God. Yet, if we love one another, God remains in us, and his love is brought to perfection in us. 13 This is how we know that we remain in him and he in us, that he has given us of his Spirit. 14 Moreover, we have seen and testify that the Father sent his Son as savior of the world. 15 Whoever acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him and he in God. 16 We have come to know and to believe in the love God has for us.

God is love, and whoever remains in love remains in God and God in him. 17 In this is love brought to perfection among us, that we have confidence on the day of judgment because as he is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment, and so one who fears is not yet perfect in love. 19 We love because he first loved us.

20 If anyone says, I love God, but hates his brother, he is a liar; for whoever does not love a brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 This is the commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.​
Seems problematic. It is better to say "the definition of "saving faith" is that faith which shows itself in love and obedience to Jesus Christ." To say "is to love," it seems to conflate faith with works, placing them into one mass so that we might say "we are saved by our works," thus making salvation debt for labor provided.

If salvation is not gratuitous, then it is salvation according to our merits. Works can only ever be the fruit of salvation, never its cause.

I best not quote Jesus any more, since he conflates faith with works and stuff ... ;)
 
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Doctor Octavius

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Without wishing to put words into MoreCoffee's mouth, as the process of Salvation is continual, in that we "were saved but are being saved" then a demonstration of ones love and obedience to Christ is not a work but a fruit of the Spirit.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Saved but being saved? Justified but being justified? We are justified by Christ through faith, and then we grow in conformity to Jesus Christ. But this is sanctification. It is not our salvation, but a fruit of salvation. We are saved, therefore, we grow in Christ.
 
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Biblicist

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I'm not sure what you mean by that. Saved but being saved? Justified but being justified? We are justified by Christ through faith, and then we grow in conformity to Jesus Christ. But this is sanctification. It is not our salvation, but a fruit of salvation. We are saved, therefore, we grow in Christ.
Okay, this is a common expression within Pentecostal and Evangelical circles where it acknowledges that our conversion/initiation experience is where we were initially Saved, but where our Christian walk is one where we must continue to work out our Salvation. It's an acknowledgement that it is possible for someone to reject their salvation if at some point the Lord says, 'enough is enough' when it comes to some specific grievous sin or sins that they have been unprepared to address.
 
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Doctor Octavius

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I best not quote Jesus any more, since he conflates faith with works and stuff ... ;)

What kind of answer is that? Nowhere in those verses is what you say true. But perhaps you should clarify what you mean? Can you please explain what you are talking about, especially in relation to verses like these:

Rom_4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
 
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MoreCoffee

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I best not quote Jesus any more, since he conflates faith with works and stuff ... ;)
What kind of answer is that? Nowhere in those verses is what you say true. But perhaps you should clarify what you mean? Can you please explain what you are talking about, especially in relation to verses like these:

Rom_4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

It's the good kind of answer. Jesus said, If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and remain in his love. thus associating being in God's loving [grace] is linked to keeping Jesus' commandments. And 1 John 4:7-21 explains how love works in human experience and the link between human love and God's love. 1 John is dealing with saving faith's characteristics. Therefore quoting our Lord Jesus Christ and saint John the theologian risks conflating faith with works because faith without works is dead as saint James indicates when he writes, faith without works is dead (James 2:26)

PS: Romans 4:4 is about works of the Law isn't it?
Romans 4:1-12 What then can we say that Abraham found, our ancestor according to the flesh? 2 Indeed, if Abraham was justified on the basis of his works, he has reason to boast; but this was not so in the sight of God. 3 For what does the scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. 4 A worker's wage is credited not as a gift, but as something due. 5 But when one does not work, yet believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6 So also David declares the blessedness of the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not record.

9 Does this blessedness apply only to the circumcised, or to the uncircumcised as well? Now we assert that faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was he circumcised or not? He was not circumcised, but uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision as a seal on the righteousness received through faith while he was uncircumcised. Thus he was to be the father of all the uncircumcised who believe, so that to them (also) righteousness might be credited, 12 as well as the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised, but also follow the path of faith that our father Abraham walked while still uncircumcised.​
 
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Doctor Octavius

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Okay, this is a common expression within Pentecostal and Evangelical circles where it acknowledges that our conversion/initiation experience is where we were initially Saved, but where our Christian walk is one where we must work out our Salvation. It's an acknowledgement that it is possible for someone to reject their salvation if at some point the Lord says, 'enough is enough' when it comes to some specific grievous sin or sins that they have been unprepared to address.

Sounds more Catholic than Protestant, even the bit about "grievous" (mortal?) sins. All sins are worthy of eternal condemnation. The perfection of God does not allow for anything but perfection. Furthermore, we are not partially or initially justified "by faith," nor do we finish our justification through living a more holy life. It is either "without works," or it is nothing at all. The only way salvation can be lost is if faith is lost-- but that true faith in the heart of all God's sheep cannot be lost, nor does it fail to work in the sheep of God to perform good works.
 
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Doctor Octavius

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It's the good kind of answer. Jesus said, If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and remain in his love. thus associating being in God's loving [grace] is linked to keeping Jesus' commandments. And 1 John 4:7-21 explains how love works in human experience and the link between human love and God's love. 1 John is dealing with saving faith's characteristics. Therefore quoting our Lord Jesus Christ and saint John the theologian risks conflating faith with works because faith without works is dead as saint James indicates when he writes, faith without works is dead (James 2:26)

To say "faith without works is dead" clearly differentiates between faith and works, even if there is a connection. They are not the same thing. Faith without works is dead because justification leads to good works. Not because justification is by works. A faith that has no works is simply the same kind of mere belief that devils have.

Furthermore, the commandments at question are:

1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

The first commandment is literally "faith"! And after faith, we are commanded to love. This is no works-righteousness pattern here. First, this is that same faith which justifies without the works of the law:

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Next, this same "love" is naturally included in that which God works in the believer:

Php_2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

And it gets better. This same faith and love in other parts of scripture are even given to us, we who were unwilling and unloving:

Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Since you are Catholic, from Augustine's commentary on it. He basically summarizes my entire position at the same time too:

"And he says that a man is justified by faith and not by works, because faith itself is first given, from which may be obtained other things which are specially characterized as works, in which a man may live righteously. For he himself also says, "By grace you are saved through faith; and this not of yourselves; but it is the gift of God," Ephesians 2:8 —that is to say, "And in saying 'through faith,' even faith itself is not of yourselves, but is God's gift." "Not of works," he says, "lest any man should be lifted up." (Augustine, On the Predestination of the Saints Ch. 12)

Thus there is nothing that we can do to earn our salvation-- not even our faith and love-- because all these things are given to us who did not merit them, nor are they maintained by our merits, but everything is given gratuitously. Our good works, our love, our faith, our perseverance, all of these things are gifts to wretched sinners.

Re: Romans 4:4-- Works of the law, yes, and?

My assumption is that you will next say "He means not following the Jewish law." But Paul in chapter 3 lists the following things, all of which are clearly refer to the moral and universal law:

None are righteous
No one understands or seeks God
No one does anything good
All are liars with poison in our lips, full of cursing and bitterness
All are swift to shed blood,
All have destruction and misery in their ways, and know not the way of peace
And none have any fear of God.

Paul concludes after going through this list, none of which can be said to stem from mere circumcision or whatnot, or any of the relics of the Mosaic law:

"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
(Rom 3:19-20)

Thus Paul is not merely denying the necessity of following the Jewish rituals and other such things--- but speaks of the entirety of the moral law of its inability to be kept or to save, but only to instruct in our own sinfulness and guilt.
 
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Biblicist

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Sounds more Catholic than Protestant, even the bit about "grievous" (mortal?) sins. All sins are worthy of eternal condemnation.
I don’t know about you, but if I were to disobey the Road Law where I maybe wilfully drive over the speed limit by 1 or 2Km per hour then I hardly think that this would be in the same category as ‘fornication, idolatry, homosexuality, slanderers or swindlers’, you know what, that might just be a Scripture! Do I even need to add to this with paedophilia, murder or bank robbery?

From what I understand, it appears that Roman Catholicsm has established some form of grading regarding sin but this has nothing to do with Pentecostal or Evangelical theology where it is generally recognised that we can forfeit our salvation when the Lord says enough is enough, but as to what is enough is up to the Lord, though murder, paedophilia and bank robbery would undoubtedly be across the line, whereas taking an extra paperclip from work would in all probability not be cause to forfeit our salvation.

Even though I hear people from time to time equating murder and bank robbery with taking a paperclip from work, I can certainly never understand this type of mindset – it fascinates me.

It is either "without works," or it is nothing at all.
It appears that you are confusing the fruit of the Spirit with works as they are two completely different things; though I grant that we often have to ‘work’ at doing what is right at times, but that probably isn't quite the same thing.

The only way salvation can be lost is if faith is lost-- but that true faith in the heart of all God's sheep cannot be lost, nor does it fail to work in the sheep of God to perform good works.
It’s not really about ‘losing anything’ but we can certainly forfeit eternal life if we continue to sin against the Holy Spirit.
 
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MoreCoffee

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To say "faith without works is dead" clearly differentiates between faith and works, even if there is a connection. They are not the same thing. Faith without works is dead because justification leads to good works. Not because justification is by works. A faith that has no works is simply the same kind of mere belief that devils have.
...

It seems that the new testament writers made no vocabulary distinction between 'faith' and 'belief'. Our English translations do make an effort to differentiate but that is more of a theological reading of the text than a bare vocabulary reading. Saint James make no differentiation in vocabulary between the faith of demons and the faith of the elect. For him "πιστις" covers both. Having said that, it is obvious that the faith of the elect does differ from the faith of demons in at least one respect and that is in the things that the faith produces. For the elect faith produces goodness both in motivations and in actions. For demons faith produces nothing good.
 
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gideons300

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Should it be expected or could we say rewarded?

The point you. make is a great one. Indeed, obedience is a gift! I fear many will read the title and think I am saying that it is demanded of us. Then we are back to earning it, which we can never do.

When I used the word "expected" in the OP title, it was to say the same thing James said, that faith without works.... the ability to obey.....is dead. James and Paul are in no way contradicting one another, but it often appears so. Why? Because we have lost the truth that if we are dead and our life is his with Christ in God, then it is no more we that live And if it truly is Christ living in us now as a new man, He will obey through us! Glory to God!
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'

This is a critical time in our lives. Long lost to the church, the truth that we are truly new people that our God has promised to cause us to obey is being restored to us. We are the generation that will see that which Satan has succeeded from hiding from the church for 1900 years restored to us, God is about to show us the pathway to abide in Him all day, every day. And as we individually become one with Christ, to our joy and amazement, we will find that becoming one with one another is actually not only possible, it is guaranteed.

We are about to experience the final rain of the Spirit of God on His weary, divided and thoroughly confused bride, and one of the most evident results will be our discovering the truth of how to possess our vessels in sanctification and honor. Obedience will no more be seen in such a divided light. God is about to open our eyes to one of the lost benefits of being a child of God. He will..... not maybe.... WILL..... cause each one of us to obey Him, and to obey Him with a joy filled and overflowing heart.

I pray this OP of mine that may have upset any instead becomes a source of amazing encouragement and joy. Yes, Norah, God is about to reward every single child of God with an obedient heart. Thank you so much for your wisdom.

Blessings,

Gideon
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Faith without works is dead is written in the context of, love your neighbour as yourself, do not show favoritism based on earthly distinctions, to help the poor and the widows in their distress.
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The letter of James does not say however, that you may take the saying "faith without works is dead" and take it to mean that you must follow the mosaic law to give example of your faith .. after explaining that the law of moses basically curses anyone who tries to follow it and does not follow it to the full extent .. speaks then of the perfect law of liberty .
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in saying faith without works is dead .. James is speaking to the spiritual health of the new person we have inside of us since being born again .. please also note that he's speaking to the jewish believers scattered all over the roman empire to indicate the starting perspective of the audience .
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faith without mercy definitely is dead . faith without love is definitely dead . faith without impartiality is dead . faith that doesn't benefit others .. is dead .. James spoke in parables also and faith without works is like a fruit without a tree .. as James appeared to be meditating on the teachings of Jesus when writing this letter, he probably remembered the fig tree that was cursed because it did not bear fruit .. meaning if you're not bearing fruit (the fruit of the spirit is .. *musical notes*) then in context of the parables of living things .. then your tree is dead .. i see things through the lense of an "encourager" so i see an edifying purpose here .. not a call to control people because they're newbies in the faith and still need the dopamine response from approval of people .
 
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razzelflabben

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I think it's easier to see if you change the question. Does the Father require Christ to be obedient? No, He doesn't.
He knows that Christ IS obedient because it is His nature to be obedient.

Does Christ have to struggle with temptation to sin? No. Because it is against His nature to sin. Temptation has no effect on Him. He already overcame sin.
if Christ cannot be tempted to sin, why then was He tempted....Matthew 4...actually, you would be surprised by how many passages talk about the indwelling HS in Christ Himself. He overcame temptations the same way we are suppose to, by the power of the indwelling HS.
Through faith in God's promise, I can access that exact same nature which is in Christ as MY OWN, and become just as obedient as Christ is, and just as immune to sin's temptation. As long as I remain in faith of God's promise.
now, let's talk about the wording here a bit, not sure what exactly you intend. If it is all about faith, then it is in our power. IOW's we hold the power over whether or not we live by faith. However, if our being without sin is by the power of the indwelling HS, then it no longer is about me. So I have to disagree with this as it is written. It is the power of the HS that is living in me and flowing through me that is able to overcome sin and temptation. That comes through faith, but it isn't the faith doing the work, it is the HS within.
What is being missed is that when we DO fail and give in to temptation, the resulting sinful action isn't where we failed. We failed in not staying in faith. Once we step outside faith in God's promise, temptation then has a foothold. The failure is in the lack of faith. The sinful action is merely the consequences of the real problem.
again, I would have to say, not as it is written here. Faith is trusting God...which is important, but the power of the HS if found in yielding ourselves. Now again, faith is important to this process. IOW's through faith/trust, I yield. But it is the yielding that opens the door, not the faith. it is when I allow God to be all in my life that He is free to work, not when I trust Him to do what He is going to do. Here is an example, our son right now is angry at me because he knows that what I told him is truth. He has faith/trust that my words are true, what he lacks is the yielding to that truth that would change his situation. Likewise, we can have faith/trust in God without every yielding our will to His.
Obedience isn't something that we must add to our faith to remain saved. Obedience is the evidence that we ARE saved. Just as the apple is the evidence that the tree is an apple tree.
since I already said this, I can only say here, agreed.
 
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razzelflabben

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It's the good kind of answer. Jesus said, If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and remain in his love. thus associating being in God's loving [grace] is linked to keeping Jesus' commandments. And 1 John 4:7-21 explains how love works in human experience and the link between human love and God's love. 1 John is dealing with saving faith's characteristics. Therefore quoting our Lord Jesus Christ and saint John the theologian risks conflating faith with works because faith without works is dead as saint James indicates when he writes, faith without works is dead (James 2:26)

PS: Romans 4:4 is about works of the Law isn't it?
Romans 4:1-12 What then can we say that Abraham found, our ancestor according to the flesh? 2 Indeed, if Abraham was justified on the basis of his works, he has reason to boast; but this was not so in the sight of God. 3 For what does the scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. 4 A worker's wage is credited not as a gift, but as something due. 5 But when one does not work, yet believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6 So also David declares the blessedness of the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not record.

9 Does this blessedness apply only to the circumcised, or to the uncircumcised as well? Now we assert that faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was he circumcised or not? He was not circumcised, but uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision as a seal on the righteousness received through faith while he was uncircumcised. Thus he was to be the father of all the uncircumcised who believe, so that to them (also) righteousness might be credited, 12 as well as the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised, but also follow the path of faith that our father Abraham walked while still uncircumcised.​
notice that the key in the verse to obedience is to remain in God's love....iow's yielding to Him continually. It is this yielding to Him that produces righteousness, obedience, a witness to the truth of who God is.
 
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Frogster

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are you implying -that those born again of the Spirit if God who then ,in love for him and gratitude toward him listen to him and do what he says because they trust that he knows what is best and has the best for us as his goal .. are just dogs ? if there is a higher plane perhaps you would like to share how you arrived at it so every one can arrive at it also ..or is it an exclusive club ?

and then tell me .. im in a supermarket ,i'm about to buy some beers because i have always had that liberty to drink .(but avoid being drunken) and the holy Spirit speaks to my heart (he is my Sheppards voice -he only speaks that which he hears from the father ) And he says to me ..do not buy that ...
Do i go ahead and buy it ?-if so why?
Do i listen and obey ? - if so , why ?

lol! of course not, but I am showing it is not that lofty of a goal, to always think about obedience, since puppies can do it!:D How high of a goal is that of a puppy?

now stop presuming the worst of me.


Look, it is biblical, Paul wanted them to know all of the riches in Christ, the higher plane stuff, read eph 1.


18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
 
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