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Staff/Members discussion [report-free]

Edial

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Rewriting a post here. The Russian holidays kick in as the Western ones are winding down, and I have been run down to near total exhaustion. Then, while writing, I inadvertently closed the window.

I think we've been saying the same thing in that I've been talking about addressing the ideas, not the person and you say the post and not the poster, which I take to mean the same thing. No problem there.

Style, though, is subjective, and can vary greatly. If there is an actual link between cabbages and kings, it may take a lot of talking around things to get to the point. Many of the theological, philosophical, social, economic and other ideas are of sufficient complexity that they require exposition that exceeds the attention span of laboratory rats, and now of many humans, and that may be seen as style. (If anyone senses that I have GK Chesterton in mind, they are right. Amd as an example of appreciating and admiring one's philosophical foes, there is hardly a better teacher than GKC, the very model of non-abuse).

My concerns remain, though. The chief one is underscored by your reference to the Church. We don't agree on what that is, and as such, are doomed to talk past each other. This is a constant hindrance to mutual understanding. When you say "we are told how to address this" I take it you are referring to Scripture "telling" us, without a specific common authority to interpret it. Thus, we can never be sure there is an "us". Sometimes and on some things, we are sure there is not. That said, I still recognize that we do share vital things in common, as well, and suffering persecution is liable to be one of those things. Nevertheless, there will always be a problem with any moderation of things where the moderated may not recognize the authority to be moderated; specifically, if we think we have a religious mandate to condemn Islam, which specifically denies that Christ came in the flesh, then we're going to do it, the moderators will quash us because they think we are attacking individuals, or saying that all Muslims are evil scumbags, or whatever, and we will leave, one by one or en masse.

So that's the other concern: that the generalizations will be forbidden because relatively tiny minorities exist that are exceptions, even if they are the exception that proves the rule. Indeed, the very fact that we have to speak of "moderate" Muslims implies that they are not in fact representative of the majority. And the generalization is true in space and time, the vital difference that common interpretation of the source of Muslim teaching, above all, the Koran, blesses the Muslim ideas and practices that we condemn as evil and "extreme", whereas the common interpretations of Christian teaching forbid them, the spreading of the Faith by force or deception, the very existence of taquiyya (and yes, I know how they are now trying to get us to think of it), devshirme and jihad.

So an insistence that the generalizations be disallowed because a minority in the West disavows them (to our faces, at least) is effectively support of Islam. I, for one, am certainly ready to concede both what the Muslim in right about in his faith and teachings, and even that there are honest and sincere Muslims who think that the common interpretations of the Koran are wrong. I have no trouble imagining good in people. But what is true about the thing as a whole is not changed or denied by the exceptions to the rule.
Yet in the West the majority of Muslims is not fundamentalist nor extremist.
So we are asking to define Islam in the context of approving sex-slavery (similar topic in this thread) in the context of the Extremist and/or Fundamentalist Islam and not say "Muslims approve sex-slavery".
Not all Muslims do. And in the West the majority don't.

So, if you say Extremist Muslims approve sex-slavery - no problem, accurate statement.

I really think this makes sense while not infringing on anyone's freedom of speech and truth.

These are open forums - posting style is everything.

Thanks, :)
Ed
 
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I believe the Muslim religion speaks for itself as to whom it serves just simply by those who go about persecuting Christians and turning their church buildings into torture chambers. This type of behavior is not only not of God but is clearly the type of destruction that Satan is engaged in against us.

As far as their teachings go, I believe the Apostle Paul sums it up best for us:

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:6-9
 
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There are Muslims who are engaged in this activity, the others support them by remaining silent and refuse to condemn such behavior. Their religion is one of hate, and hatred comes from Satan. Satan rebelled against God before and he continues today by using the Muslim religion to do his bidding for him now. Christ told us that when we are persecuted, it is not because of us personally, but because of their hatred for Him. If that is not demonic, I do not know what is.
 
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rusmeister

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Hi, Ed,
Your response does not respond at all to my concerns. It repeats a particular line, the one you're holding. It displays no knowledge of what Islam DID do to the Orthodox world, of the fate of the ancient Churches of Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch and Constantinople, and what the Hagia Sophia is today. It treats the Muslim presence and claims in Europe and America as the prime understanding of what Islam is, that if we speak of Islam that tiny minority shall prevent us from speaking of the overwhelming majority in the rest of the world. I say it is not and they shall not, though they may here by your will. You hold the high card and can throw me out. But I see a thing in space and time that is not limited to the very narrow and vocal subset that knows that for now, they do not call the shots as of yet in what was once Christendom, and which contains both honest and sincere Muslims, both nominal and true believers, and believers who believe that deceiving us is justified for it is indeed attaining the spread of Islam as Allah wills. I have no problem in making distinctions, no objections to speaking of those various groups as being distinct from the much larger category of believers who are openly for the spread of Islam by any means.

The labels of "fundamentalist" and "extremist" deny the fact of that historical and very much alive Islam that seeks worldwide Islamic domination. They are based on a false assumption that the average Muslim desires nothing of the sort. It may be that many nominal Muslims don't care - but they are as irrelevant to the discussion as nominal Christians are to what is true and important about Christianity. But among those that really do think Islam true and important to their lives, there is no doubt that what you call "fundamentalist" really IS fundamental, foundational to the religion as a whole in space and time.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Is it objectionable to staff to say such things as ...

"Islam promotes xyz" (where xyz may be something Rus is speaking of, such as that it is ok to lie to spread their religion)

Or "Islam has done xyz" (in a historic factual sense of what was done this week or a thousand years ago)

Or "the Koran teaches xyz"

I guess what I am wondering is ... Would it be permissible to speak of Islam or the Koran in all the ways Rus is describing (or any other factual ones)?

So far I only hear that one may not say "All Muslims believe xyz". Is that the only "protected" phrasing? Which honestly, if that is the case, is actually factually true.

Though perhaps it may be accurate to say that "some Muslims don't agree/realize that Islam promotes xyz".

Anyway, I guess I'm just looking for the exact line?
 
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Right now, Muslims are killing Christians, and if you don't think that it is not Satanic and from Satan, then you have a problem. It is a religion that is intolerant of Israel and they are presently seeking their destruction, this is exactly the same goal that Satan has.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I believe it is a good bet that it is a duck.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Right now, Muslims are killing Christians, and if you don't think that it is not Satanic and from Satan, then you have a problem. It is a religion that is intolerant of Israel and they are presently seeking their destruction, this is exactly the same goal that Satan has.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I believe it is a good bet that it is a duck.

Welcome to CF, Charles. :)

Not to be ignoring you, and I certainly agree there are horrible things being done to Christians by Muslims. The news sickens me.

But just so you know, if you don't get much of a response here, it's not that we disagree with you. But this thread was created for the particular reason to discuss staff policy and member interactions, etc. It relates to a comment regarding Islam, but that's not actually the topic, so I wanted to let you know because you are new, and in case no one really responds to your comments, I didn't want you to misunderstand.

Again, welcome! :)
 
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Edial

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Hi, Ed,
Your response does not respond at all to my concerns. It repeats a particular line, the one you're holding. It displays no knowledge of what Islam DID do to the Orthodox world, of the fate of the ancient Churches of Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch and Constantinople, and what the Hagia Sophia is today. It treats the Muslim presence and claims in Europe and America as the prime understanding of what Islam is, that if we speak of Islam that tiny minority shall prevent us from speaking of the overwhelming majority in the rest of the world. I say it is not and they shall not, though they may here by your will. You hold the high card and can throw me out. But I see a thing in space and time that is not limited to the very narrow and vocal subset that knows that for now, they do not call the shots as of yet in what was once Christendom, and which contains both honest and sincere Muslims, both nominal and true believers, and believers who believe that deceiving us is justified for it is indeed attaining the spread of Islam as Allah wills. I have no problem in making distinctions, no objections to speaking of those various groups as being distinct from the much larger category of believers who are openly for the spread of Islam by any means.

The labels of "fundamentalist" and "extremist" deny the fact of that historical and very much alive Islam that seeks worldwide Islamic domination. They are based on a false assumption that the average Muslim desires nothing of the sort. It may be that many nominal Muslims don't care - but they are as irrelevant to the discussion as nominal Christians are to what is true and important about Christianity. But among those that really do think Islam true and important to their lives, there is no doubt that what you call "fundamentalist" really IS fundamental, foundational to the religion as a whole in space and time.
No knowledge what Islam did in the Orthodox world?
By nationality I am Armenian.
Armenia is a the first country that converted to Christianity.
I grew up as atheist in Soviet Union.
My uncle however was the Archbishop of the Armenian Apostolic Church.
I know a lot what the Turks did to the Armenians.

So just to repeat the point, if someone is planning on saying that Muslims promote sex-slavery because ISIS promotes sex-slavery, this is not going to work in CF.

If you differentiate by saying that Fundamentalist, or Extremist, or even Historical Islam embraces such things, it is a true statement and OK to say so.

The fact remains, in today's world, especially in the West, there are many Moderate Muslims who are recognized as Muslims by all Muslims and are against what the Fundamentalists teach.

To broad stroke them with ISIS is not accurate. It is not true.
To say the Moderates are disobedient to Koran because they do not believe in sex-slavery is NOT our call to make because the Fundamentalists consider them Muslims as well.

If you continue doing so, CF is not the place for it.
If you planned on leaving CF anyway, there is nothing I can say except you are welcome back.

In Christ,
Ed
 
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Edial

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Right now, Muslims are killing Christians, and if you don't think that it is not Satanic and from Satan, then you have a problem. It is a religion that is intolerant of Israel and they are presently seeking their destruction, this is exactly the same goal that Satan has.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I believe it is a good bet that it is a duck.
Welcome to CF. :)
 
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rusmeister

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No knowledge what Islam did in the Orthodox world?
By nationality I am Armenian.
Armenia is a the first country that converted to Christianity.
I grew up as atheist in Soviet Union.
My uncle however was the Archbishop of the Armenian Apostolic Church.
I know a lot what the Turks did to the Armenians.

So just to repeat the point, if someone is planning on saying that Muslims promote sex-slavery because ISIS promotes sex-slavery, this is not going to work in CF.

If you differentiate by saying that Fundamentalist, or Extremist, or even Historical Islam embraces such things, it is a true statement and OK to say so.

The fact remains, in today's world, especially in the West, there are many Moderate Muslims who are recognized as Muslims by all Muslims and are against what the Fundamentalists teach.

To broad stroke them with ISIS is not accurate. It is not true.
To say the Moderates are disobedient to Koran because they do not believe in sex-slavery is NOT our call to make because the Fundamentalists consider them Muslims as well.

If you continue doing so, CF is not the place for it.
If you planned on leaving CF anyway, there is nothing I can say except you are welcome back.

In Christ,
Ed

Спасибо, Эд.
My wording was precise. What you hitherto said displayed no knowledge. If you display knowledge now, well and good. But I did not misspeak.

No one here is saying that all Muslims promote sex slavery. That's pretty much what I mean by your not speaking to the concerns I have pointed out. Repeating that point is of no help or reassurance at all, because no one that I know of here, including myself, is going to assert that all Muslims support sex slavery. That's not the issue. I raised my concerns above, and carefully expressed them.

Но всё-таки приятно, что хоть что-то понимаете. Человек, выросший в Советском Союзе, не будет нуждаться в Google translate, чтобы понимать русский текст. Осталось бы Вам реально открыть традиционную веру Ваших предков. :)

I can't write it in Armenian, only say it, but shnurakalut'yun!
 
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Edial

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I must say I am having a hard time reconciling PC and Christianity
And I am having a hard time understanding why some people cannot understand that today there are Moderate Muslims, a lot of them specifically in the West, and they do not believe in sex-slavery.

For example, I do not like that Christianity is splitting in many groups, but it is a fact.
We unify ourselves at least in CF through the Nicene Creed - our statement of faith.

Concerning the rest of doctrines and teachings we do not need to agree.

We fully understand that Purgatory is Catholic, Toll Houses is Eastern Orthodox, Symbolic Baptism is Protestant ... we do not say Purgatory, Toll Houses and Symbolic Baptism is Christian. We separate it better for clarity.

Islam is developing cracks. The Historic violence of that religion and the dominant militant mafia of the Extremism is losing it's grip.

We have plenty of Moderate Muslims who are now openly stating (used to be in secret due to fear) that things like sex-slavery is absurd.
So we cannot say that Islam believes that sex-slavery is the way to go. Moderate Muslims do not believe so. So we can say that Extremist or Fundamentalist (find your own term) believe so.

CF is not "politically correct". I personally despise being a part of PC.

However, we also should face the reality of the fact that many Muslims do not agree with ISIS type of theology and/or philosophy.

All we are asking is better definition, not Political Correctness.

I am also aware there are people who enjoy calling names.
(These are anonymous forums where we do not know each other).
They love it. It is their 'high'. They think they are on the side of the truth by calling others names and love comparing themselves to John the Baptist, Jesus Christ or Paul.
And they are convincing others to follow them because they preach the truth. Their truth is theoretical and not practical.
There is a whole life of Moderate Muslims that is going on under our noses.

I am not referring to anyone here.

I am just saying, we are not asking people being PC. We are asking them to define things accurately reflective of today's reality.

Posting style is everything.

In Christ,
Ed
 
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Edial

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Спасибо, Эд.
My wording was precise. What you hitherto said displayed no knowledge. If you display knowledge now, well and good. But I did not misspeak.

No one here is saying that all Muslims promote sex slavery. That's pretty much what I mean by your not speaking to the concerns I have pointed out. Repeating that point is of no help or reassurance at all, because no one that I know of here, including myself, is going to assert that all Muslims support sex slavery. That's not the issue. I raised my concerns above, and carefully expressed them.

Но всё-таки приятно, что хоть что-то понимаете. Человек, выросший в Советском Союзе, не будет нуждаться в Google translate, чтобы понимать русский текст. Осталось бы Вам реально открыть традиционную веру Ваших предков. :)

I can't write it in Armenian, only say it, but shnurakalut'yun!
I cannot write in Armenian either, just speak basic house language.
I was born in Ukraine and read and write Russian well. Do not have Russian keyboard though. :)
In appreciate the hint to reconsider EO but I find Lutheranism right there in the middle and closest to the Bible. :)

Muslim sex-slavery was an example to show that Muslims disagree about Koran (sex-slavery is in Koran).
And they consider each other Muslims nonetheless.

Thanks, :)
In Christ,
Ed
 
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See, I'm confused here, Ed. You say that there are people in this anonymous forum who compare themselves to Christ and act like they're on their high horse and are addicted to name-calling, then you say you're not referring to anyone here. What is the point then?

I think you're preaching to the choir on the generalization stuff. Nobody in TAW or any other area of CF honestly thinks that EVERY single Muslim on Earth is a Wahabi style Madrasa-brainwashed terror cell lunatic with a penchant for female circumcision and mass murder. But I think some generalizations are fair about Islam just as I think some generalizations are fair about my religion, etc. If I say, "those Orthodox love to show up late, love their booze, and know how to EAT!" is that a flame? There are Orthodox who show up on time. I'm one of them. And I don't drink. But I can pack away the calories! ^_^:p Am I generalizing? Sure. Could some Orthodox somewhere get mad and say I'm flaming? What if I say Filipinos are very family-oriented people. That's a positive generalization. Why can one generalize positively and it's appreciated, generalize something somewhat negative about a group and it's instantly hateful flaming?

I've been warned or given infractions for making statements about liberals even though I wasn't targeting "a" liberal in particular, same with stuff about gays and sodomy.

I think we're overly-sensitive and over-moderated.

I am also aware there are people who enjoy calling names.
(These are anonymous forums where we do not know each other).
They love it. It is their 'high'. They think they are on the side of the truth by calling others names and love comparing themselves to John the Baptist, Jesus Christ or Paul.
And they are convincing others to follow them because they preach the truth. Their truth is theoretical and not practical.
There is a whole life of Moderate Muslims that is going on under our noses.

I am not referring to anyone here.
 
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Edial

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Is it objectionable to staff to say such things as ...

"Islam promotes xyz" (where xyz may be something Rus is speaking of, such as that it is ok to lie to spread their religion)
Ask yourself a question, do all Muslims (generally speaking) believe that? How about the moderates?
If not, find a clearer definition.
For example, in Talmud some things are written that are violent towards little infants in sexual way. Can we say the Jews believe it? It's in the Talmud after all. You see what I mean?
(Talmud is not Torah[bible], but neither is Koran)
We should not say the Jews believe such things at all. They themselves hate such Extremists who believe such garbage.

Do you see what I mean?

Or "Islam has done xyz" (in a historic factual sense of what was done this week or a thousand years ago)
Need a better example of what you mean.
If today you define Islam as what is going on in Middle East and see this as the representative of Islam (burning Churches) you should consider Moderate Muslims who openly object to it.
Why not call these barbarians as Fundamentalist Islamists?

Or "the Koran teaches xyz"
Definite Yes. Correct statement.


I guess what I am wondering is ... Would it be permissible to speak of Islam or the Koran in all the ways Rus is describing (or any other factual ones)?

So far I only hear that one may not say "All Muslims believe xyz". Is that the only "protected" phrasing? Which honestly, if that is the case, is actually factually true.

Though perhaps it may be accurate to say that "some Muslims don't agree/realize that Islam promotes xyz".

Anyway, I guess I'm just looking for the exact line?
Tell the truth, that is all I am asking.

We cannot say Liberals or Conservatives are idiots at CF. Because not every Liberal or conservative is an idiot. You wold be flaming some Liberals or Conservatives who are not idiots.
We MAY say that SOME Liberals or Conservatives are idiots.

Posting style is everything.
 
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topcare

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And I am having a hard time understanding why some people cannot understand that today there are Moderate Muslims, a lot of them specifically in the West, and they do not believe in sex-slavery.

For example, I do not like that Christianity is splitting in many groups, but it is a fact.
We unify ourselves at least in CF through the Nicene Creed - our statement of faith.

Concerning the rest of doctrines and teachings we do not need to agree.

We fully understand that Purgatory is Catholic, Toll Houses is Eastern Orthodox, Symbolic Baptism is Protestant ... we do not say Purgatory, Toll Houses and Symbolic Baptism is Christian. We separate it better for clarity.

Islam is developing cracks. The Historic violence of that religion and the dominant militant mafia of the Extremism is losing it's grip.

We have plenty of Moderate Muslims who are now openly stating (used to be in secret due to fear) that things like sex-slavery is absurd.
So we cannot say that Islam believes that sex-slavery is the way to go. Moderate Muslims do not believe so. So we can say that Extremist or Fundamentalist (find your own term) believe so.

CF is not "politically correct". I personally despise being a part of PC.

However, we also should face the reality of the fact that many Muslims do not agree with ISIS type of theology and/or philosophy.

All we are asking is better definition, not Political Correctness.

I am also aware there are people who enjoy calling names.
(These are anonymous forums where we do not know each other).
They love it. It is their 'high'. They think they are on the side of the truth by calling others names and love comparing themselves to John the Baptist, Jesus Christ or Paul.
And they are convincing others to follow them because they preach the truth. Their truth is theoretical and not practical.
There is a whole life of Moderate Muslims that is going on under our noses.

I am not referring to anyone here.

I am just saying, we are not asking people being PC. We are asking them to define things accurately reflective of today's reality.

Posting style is everything.

In Christ,
Ed
The thing is you are promoting PC ism, to say that what you said is purely political. The idea of the very modern notion of "moderate" muslims started after muslims attacked the US on 911. Than all you heard was moderate muslim this moderate muslim that.

Thier holy book tells them to kill and as Rus says all muslims eventually want total domination, it's what drives their whole ideology. I have a good friend that thought the same way that there was a divide between extreme muslims and moderate so he did a research paper and found that the idea of moderate muslims is not not only true but that it was a political idea pushed after 9/11.

Of course not all practice sex slave, not all kill infidels even though it says to in their book. The fact still remains that islam itself is very bad and as Christians on a supposed Christian forum no one should get dinged for saying such.
 
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Edial

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The thing is you are promoting PC ism, to say that what you said is purely political. The idea of the very modern notion of "moderate" muslims started after muslims attacked the US on 911. Than all you heard was moderate muslim this moderate muslim that.

Thier holy book tells them to kill and as Rus says all muslims eventually want total domination, it's what drives their whole ideology. I have a good friend that thought the same way that there was a divide between extreme muslims and moderate so he did a research paper and found that the idea of moderate muslims is not not only true but that it was a political idea pushed after 9/11.

Of course not all practice sex slave, not all kill infidels even though it says to in their book. The fact still remains that islam itself is very bad and as Christians on a supposed Christian forum no one should get dinged for saying such.
Why can't you say Fundamentalism Muslim if it is concerning bombing churches in the Middle East?
It IS a TRUE statement.
Moderate Muslims are TOTALLY and OPENLY against bombing churches.
Some of our posters (real minority) are moderate Muslims. We do not have many Muslims at all.
However, we must be fair to the minority.

Truth is only true when she is consistent.

In Christ,
Ed
 
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psalms 91

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The thing is you are promoting PC ism, to say that what you said is purely political. The idea of the very modern notion of "moderate" muslims started after muslims attacked the US on 911. Than all you heard was moderate muslim this moderate muslim that.

Thier holy book tells them to kill and as Rus says all muslims eventually want total domination, it's what drives their whole ideology. I have a good friend that thought the same way that there was a divide between extreme muslims and moderate so he did a research paper and found that the idea of moderate muslims is not not only true but that it was a political idea pushed after 9/11.

Of course not all practice sex slave, not all kill infidels even though it says to in their book. The fact still remains that islam itself is very bad and as Christians on a supposed Christian forum no one should get dinged for saying such.
I have noticed an influx of muslim views lately, is this a targeting of the site or just coincidence? Also I am not PC nor do I want to be so is this language allowed? Will muslims be shut down that promote or attack christians on this site. I would hope that this language will be allowed as they are an enemy of the cross.
 
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I have noticed an influx of muslim views lately, is this a targeting of the site or just coincidence? Also I am not PC nor do I want to be so is this language allowed? Will muslims be shut down that promote or attack christians on this site. I would hope that this language will be allowed as they are an enemy of the cross.
I don't know but it seems the whole world wants to acquiesce to pc anymore even Christians :(
 
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Edial

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I have noticed an influx of muslim views lately, is this a targeting of the site or just coincidence? Also I am not PC nor do I want to be so is this language allowed? Will muslims be shut down that promote or attack christians on this site. I would hope that this language will be allowed as they are an enemy of the cross.
If the Muslims or anyone else who are the enemies of the Cross attack Christians here this will not be tolerated.
I am not saying this is not happening, I am saying if this is happening and you see it and moderation in your opinion is not handling it - send me a PM with a link.
Let me see what is going on.
 
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