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Comic Book Religion: Which is your favorite?

Gxg (G²)

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What do you guys think about the Endless from DC Vertigo comics? They don't really have worshipers they are more of concepts...
It honestly comes off similar to the film "Rise of the Guardians" for the differing ways others represent some element of the world or existence.

But the concept from Endless is rather beautiful - with my favorite character being Dream. I like the concept of the Endless and seeing how it is a family consisting of seven siblings: Destiny, Death, Dream, Destruction, Desire, Despair and Delirium (who used to be Delight)....each embodying seven different fundamental forces of existence itself.
jla-22-pg14.jpg



Of course, I think Marvel has had similar dynamics with regards to incarnations of concepts which impact people's lives. They did so already with the personification of Death itself, as an example - for others such as Oblivion and Death represent the forces of Death and Eternity and Infinity represent the forces of life, as they are in perfect harmony.. all coming into existence with Eternity, Infinity, and Oblivion at the start of all existence. I loved the way they tied things in - especially with the idea of Thanos' quest to gain the approval and love of Mistress Death. ...an interesting concept and one that I've found fascinating, from a Christian perspective, in light of where I've seen it argued that Death itself is a concept that God created and used on several occassions - with others feeling it is a literal being (based on I Corinthians 15 and other passages dealing with the Angel of Death, more shared here and here) - and as it concerns the entire fundamental elements of the universe personified, there are a lot of similarities to what has been noted within Theism (more specifically Christendom/Judaism) in regards to the concept of their being a Supreme Being who rules over a Divine Council
- all working in unision to keep the universe itself going (even though it all exists within God), as Dr. Michael Heiser has noted before with regards to what the Divine Coucil is about and how it relates to humanity itself.... And others who've done amazing work on the issue are people like Dr. Margret Baker (more here, etc).

Again, to see the concept of a Divine Council within the world of Marvel Comics is rather amazing :)


 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Looks like these are the approximate Marvel equivalents of the Endless in Neil Gaiman's Sandman series (which was incorporated into the DC universe):

The Endless are (clockwise from the left): Death, Destiny, Dream, Destruction, Desire, Delirium, and Despair.

The_Sandman-_Endless_Nights_Poster_by_Frank_Quitely.jpg



I have talked about Death before, but another interesting and unusual character among these would be Delirium, the youngest among them, who was once Delight.

Delirium_Sandman.jpg


Not even Destiny knows why she transformed, but the series strongly suggests that her madness is in fact based on a deep wisdom, on total knowledge (and the resulting incomprehension) of the world that surrounds her. ("One who knows too much eventually goes insane." "One who knows truth as truth and nothing else can't comprehend this world of lies.")
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Looks like these are the approximate Marvel equivalents of the Endless in Neil Gaiman's Sandman series (which was incorporated into the DC universe):

The Endless are (clockwise from the left): Death, Destiny, Dream, Destruction, Desire, Delirium, and Despair.

The_Sandman-_Endless_Nights_Poster_by_Frank_Quitely.jpg



I have talked about Death before, but another interesting and unusual character among these would be Delirium, the youngest among them, who was once Delight.

Delirium_Sandman.jpg


Not even Destiny knows why she transformed, but the series strongly suggests that her madness is in fact based on a deep wisdom, on total knowledge (and the resulting incomprehension) of the world that surrounds her. ("One who knows too much eventually goes insane." "One who knows truth as truth and nothing else can't comprehend this world of lies.")
In light of how Delirum was known to the Greek culture as Maniae (as in Greek mythology, the Maniae are a spirit or group of spirits personifying Insanity, madness and crazed frenzy), Delirium was perhaps the most tragic and yet easiest to relate to when it comes to how those who know the much often find themselves having the least peace because of where things in the world don't make sense.

As Solomon noted best:

Ecclesiastes 1:18

For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief.​
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Coming back to the topic of comic book religion: I'm going to cheat a bit by introducing a character who started out in a TV show, but has since re-appeared in an ongoing comic series after the show was cancelled:

The amazing, the one and only, Willow Rosenberg.

WW1A.jpg


Starting out as the "awkward nerd"-archetype, Willow matured and changed considerably over the course of the show (and afterwards). At one point, she basically became the Jean Grey/Phoenix of the Whedonverse, gaining godlike powers but becoming twisted by grief and wrath after her girlfriend was killed by a stray gun shot.

In the concluding episode of the tv series, it was strongly suggested that she found more than just redemption when she unlocked the power of the slayers, essentially becoming the opposite of her dark self:

WhiteWillow.jpg


But the comic explored this further, sending her on a quest after the seed of magic was destroyed. That journey (meant to restore the creative spirit to the Earth) was depicted in the mini-series Willow: Wonderland, and turned out to be a lot more personal than expected.

willow4b.jpg


I won't spoil the ending for you, but it's a brilliant expansion of themes that were touched upon previously, but fell WAY too short during the show's run. (Seriously, if you thought Jean Grey's redemption was a lame retcon, just watch BtVS Season Seven.)
 
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TerranceL

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I am hesitant to bring up this series but it fits the subject.

There is a series put out by the publisher, "Avatar" called "God is Dead".
In essence all the gods of the various cultures of man are real, they have been sleeping and they are back and wow are they ever not happy.

The series starts out with Zeus going to St. Peters Square and laying waste to it. It only gets worse, the various pantheons interact with each other and go to war.

It's bloody, it's brutal and very very much not for kids.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I am hesitant to bring up this series but it fits the subject.

There is a series put out by the publisher, "Avatar" called "God is Dead".
In essence all the gods of the various cultures of man are real, they have been sleeping and they are back and wow are they ever not happy.

The series starts out with Zeus going to St. Peters Square and laying waste to it. It only gets worse, the various pantheons interact with each other and go to war.

It's bloody, it's brutal and very very much not for kids.
Heard about the "God is Dead" series - with it being fascinating to consider one of the stories where after all the Gods of every religion one day come to Earth and start fighting it out to determine who gets to rule, a group of scientists rebel against these Gods and eventually become Gods themselves through scientific means, with a single science-God prevailing.



The concept of man being able to even things out through science is a fascinating concept - as it concerns how having older gods dealing with what’s been happening in their absence and dividing the place into their respective dominions does not mean that man would not fight back...



GodisDead1_GodofThunder.jpg
3290911-01-iconic.jpg


3432853-02-enhanced.jpg

2014-07-12-11.21.13-1024x576.jpg
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Oh and boo @ DC for what they've done to the Vertigo books. Hellblazers Constantine would do horrific things to the new Constantine.
Constantine was always a very complicated character...
 
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granpa

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Is there a specific religion within the world of comics (if a comic-book lover) that stands out to you more so than others? If anyone has any thoughts, would love to hear sometime.

what do comic book religions have to do with Christianity and world religion?
Many atheists, btw, view your religion as a comic book religion.
talking snakes. Talking donkey. You see where I'm going with this?
 
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Gxg (G²)

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what do comic book religions have to do with Christianity and world religion?
Many atheists, btw, view your religion as a comic book religion.
talking snakes. Talking donkey. You see where I'm going with this?
Obviously, you've not read comics seeing that the writers have often noted directly where comics are a form of social media where religious ideals can be promoted or discussed. Be it Christianity (as it concerns other superheros having religious identification for that) or Greek Mythology or Hinduism and many other things.

Moreover, it's rather irrelevant what other atheists feel on Christianity being comic-book, seeing that they say the same thing on Hinduism or Buddhist (as you identify as ) ...and likewise, Christians feel atheism is akin to comic book ideology with things larger than life or requiring a lot of suspending belief (i.e. believing that everything came from nothing, etc.) - but that's not the goal of the thread or the purpose. There are other threads on that issue, such as Atheism and Spiritualism as well as here AND here.

That said, the thread was very specific as to what the rules and goals were. If you don't plan to contribute to the topic, there's no real need or point of being present. And as said before:

In case anyone is interested, a fellow with 'way too much time on his hands has deduced the religion of most superheroes from story clues:

Religion of Comic Book Characters (esp. Super-Heroes)
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I like Neil Gaiman's The Sandman series, if one considers anthropomorphic personifications and metaphysical topics as religious.
Sandman is a very intense series
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I have been reading a lot of Star Wars comics lately and I am reminded how similar the Force is to Taoism or Zen Buddhism. Non emotion, non attachment, etc. The force is portrayed as something out there, that surrounds us and binds us. Something one can tap into if they still their mind. Very similar to the idea of the Tao.

On the opposite side, the dark side embraced by the Sith is all about emotion. Getting scared, angry and hateful. As yoga says....Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.
Very good points - and on the issue, I have enjoyed a number of the comics within the Star Wars universe. They extended a lot of things which the movies did not have time for..







Crimson Empire - Web Comic - YouTube

siege-of-seleucami.jpg


3796146-0024478706-BvV.j.jpg

 
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Jane_the_Bane

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To me, the Jedi are dead wrong, and directly responsible for the existence of the Sith or a "dark side":

Their repression creates and fosters their Jungian shadow, letting it grow and fester in the dark recesses of their minds until it finally breaks free, becoming truly monstrous. In short: every Jedi is just a sith waiting to happen, and their code is to blame.

The Sith, on the other hand, are just a manifestation of the Shadow, a twisted mirror image created by repression.
 
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Eudaimonist

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To me, the Jedi are dead wrong, and directly responsible for the existence of the Sith or a "dark side"

Agreed, and considering that the Jedi code somehow ended up including a ban on romance, it's no surprise that there is something toxic present.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Gxg (G²)

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To me, the Jedi are dead wrong, and directly responsible for the existence of the Sith or a "dark side":

Their repression creates and fosters their Jungian shadow, letting it grow and fester in the dark recesses of their minds until it finally breaks free, becoming truly monstrous. In short: every Jedi is just a sith waiting to happen, and their code is to blame.

The Sith, on the other hand, are just a manifestation of the Shadow, a twisted mirror image created by repression.
I can definitely agree. I'm reminded of when Obi-Wan tells Anakin that only a Sith works in absolutes (during the "Revenge of the Sith" film) and condemns Anakin for falling into the dark side. Obi's statement shocked me since what he said was an absolute...... and a little later when Anakin says that he thinks the Jedi are evil, Obi-Wan just blurts out that he is lost.....yet another absolute by a Jedi...

In many ways, I thought the ways that the Jedi would make absolute statements and yet talk on how there were no absolutes was a reflection on the fact that the Jedi were just as flawed as other groups - and thus, it seemed realistic to me. Just like it is when others talk on moral absolutes not being present and truth being relative - and yet they'll make absolute statements and say certain things are "evil." It was the arrogance of the Jedi that led to A LOT of problems in the universe - for they often did the same things that those on the Dark Side tolerated and were never willing to call it as it was.

Many lied - just as the Sith did. Many were willing to kill for the sake of the "greater good"/cause they fought for - just as the Sith did for what they valued.

And with the Sith, I must say that there was a purpose for what they did that the Jedi could have learned from. Sith were able to achieve some of the same abilities as the Jedi - for even the Spirit of Palpatine (in the expanded universe) was able to return later and challenge Luke (almost tempting Luke to go to the Darkside).

Specifically, if following the comics from the 80s/90s, at an unknown point in time prior to his death at the Battle of Endor Palpatine had found a different way to cheat death by preserving his spirit after the death of his body, by the method of spirit transference. The series this was discussed in was the one called "Dark Empire"​







According to the official StarWars site on being a Force-Ghost:
The origins of that knowledge, as well as its history, are not known. Ancient Jedi of the Galactic Republic such as Arca Jeth, as well as Sith Lords, knew a secret which could enable the user's essence to "survive death", but this knowledge was somehow lost over the millennia, perhaps with the destruction of the Jedi library world of Ossus in the Exar Kun Wars or the First Jedi Purge. However, it was secretly preserved over the millennia by the native Ysanna, descendants of Jedi trapped on the world and slowly driven to barbarism.
Rediscovery

Qui-Gon Jinn was the first of the recent Jedi who rediscovered this secret with the assistance of a shaman of the Whills. Qui-Gon's spirit guided Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi and revealed to them the secret of retaining one's individuality after becoming one with the Force. Yoda during his exile taught it to another Jedi Master, Qu Rahn. The Dark Woman also learned of it at some point—perhaps Qui-Gon also appeared to her during her years in hiding on Cophrigin V. Death for those Jedi were different: their spirits could retain their individuality and could return as voices, dreams, or apparitions at will, so that they could help those in need of their guidance. On death, their bodies vanished; this was not the case with Qui-Gon, however, probably being a technique evolved by Obi-Wan and Yoda, under Qui-Gon's guidance. This state was temporary, as Force ghosts were an intermediate state between life and afterlife; after a certain amount of time, they would then have to move on to the Netherworld of the Force, another realm of existence. Darth Vader learned of this ability through Darth Sidious, and upon his death, the spirits of Kenobi and Yoda completed his training by granting him the last step in becoming a spirit. Anakin's spirit appeared as that of his younger self, prior to his fall to the dark side.

If one wishes to see the hypocrisy of the Jedi in not liking all aspects of the Dark Side, I am reminded of what was noted in the comics when it came to the fact that Mace Windu used a light saber system that drew from the dark side

The light saber style (goodness, can't I actually know this stuff ...,man I'm a geek^_^:)) is called Vaapad . As a fighter, Mace Windu created the seventh form of lightsaber combat and had it named after a creature whose tentacles moved so fast during its attacks that they could not be counted. Vaapad was a dangerous technique, taking its user close to the dark side in order to channel an opponent's anger and dark side energy back at him. Numerous practitioners of Vaapad lost control and fell to the dark side, including Windu's apprentice Depa Billaba. Another master of Vaapad was Sora Bulq. He helped create Vaapad by dueling with Mace Windu. As Sora Bulq was a lightsaber instructor, he was the perfect choice to help create Vaapad. In his entire life, he had taught most of the members of the Jedi Order at some point or another and he used regular blade/short blade style of Vaapad, though it is unknown whether he created this style or not. Sora Bulq was eventually consumed by the power of the Dark Side, and was a living example of how dangerous Vaapad was for the user itself. Though he was considered a master of Vaapad, Mace Windu stated that he "did not master Vaapad. Vaapad mastered him." When Mace Windu dueled with him on the planet Ruul , Sora Bulq stated that he "perfected [Vaapad]... harnessed all that is inherent in it." Through this statement one learns just how close Vaapad is to the Dark Side.

Others used it and Mace warned against it - as was the case with Quinlan Vos.






Mace actually used it to fight against the Emperor. More was shared in the novelization of Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith on pg 333

But the ultimate point in saying all of this is that Jedi and Sith are more alike than many wish to give them credit for. Others to consider would be people like Darth Traya/Kreia and the duality she demonstrated.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Agreed, and considering that the Jedi code somehow ended up including a ban on romance, it's no surprise that there is something toxic present.


eudaimonia,

Mark
I'm not really certain as to the logic of why romance was even forbidden...
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Gxg (G²);66621851 said:
I'm not really certain as to the logic of why romance was even forbidden...

It certainly wasn't forbidden in the EU, prior to the prequels (and I loathed those with a vengeance, even if they grew more bearable as the trilogy progressed).

I suspect that Lucas attempted to give the Jedi religion a more decidedly Buddhist vibe, and celibacy was his version of the non-attachment sought by monastic Buddhist traditions.

TPM, AotC and RotS have certainly done some damage in terms of lore, character development and history, even if countless writers have tried to salvage it as much as possible over the course of the last decade. Heck, one writer even managed to reconcile me to midichlorians and Anakin's supposed virgin birth, cause he used them extremely subtly:

James Luceno's Darth Plagueis is an ambitious novel that manages to redeem one of the most-hated elements introduced in TPM. I highly recommend it.
 
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Eudaimonist

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It certainly wasn't forbidden in the EU, prior to the prequels

Then I'd made a false assumption. I had assumed that Lucas was simply pandering to the EU when he had included the Jedi ban on romance. Even with my low opinion of his writing skills and taste, I never would have thought that he would be foolish enough to include such a ban. My opinion of him has sunk to an all time low.

The concept doesn't even make sense from a practical point of view. If the Jedi know that Jedi powers are passed on through heredity, having a ban on romance would nearly guarantee that Jedi powers would become extinct. Has there been any effort to explain this?


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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awitch

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It certainly wasn't forbidden in the EU, prior to the prequels (and I loathed those with a vengeance, even if they grew more bearable as the trilogy progressed).

Not exactly comic related, but in the Disney animated series Star Wars: Rebels (which is officially canon), the human Jedi Kanan is in a romantic relationship with the Twi'lek Hera, and this story line takes place 14 years after Star Wars III and 5 years before Star Wars IV.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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The concept doesn't even make sense from a practical point of view. If the Jedi know that Jedi powers are passed on through heredity, having a ban on romance would nearly guarantee that Jedi powers would become extinct. Has there been any effort to explain this?

Of course there has been some such effort!

....

Wait for it...


...

Midi_Chlorians_by_A_Heart_of_Blades.jpg
 
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Gxg (G²)

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It certainly wasn't forbidden in the EU, prior to the prequels (and I loathed those with a vengeance, even if they grew more bearable as the trilogy progressed).

I suspect that Lucas attempted to give the Jedi religion a more decidedly Buddhist vibe, and celibacy was his version of the non-attachment sought by monastic Buddhist traditions.
If by EU you mean the "Early Universe" of Star Wars during the original movies from the 70s/80s, then I more than understand. I think the prequels made a lot more sense when seeing how they played out in the comic series, which I enjoyed A LOT more since they both went into detail/depth with things and it was very much engaging. I'd very much recommend the comic novels as well as the animated show which did a lot of amazing work in making the series come alive:

Star Wars Clone Wars 2003 full series - YouTube

The Buddhist vibe seemed to be skewed (if Lucas was going for that) in light of how other Buddhist have often noted where marriage is not a negative thing . Specifically, n Japanese Buddhism, most Japanese Buddhist monks are actually married men with families and it has been that way from 1868 - present.
TPM, AotC and RotS have certainly done some damage in terms of lore, character development and history, even if countless writers have tried to salvage it as much as possible over the course of the last decade. Heck, one writer even managed to reconcile me to midichlorians and Anakin's supposed virgin birth, cause he used them extremely subtly:
The later prequels did do a lot in regards to trying to expand things...but some of it seemed very unnecessary.
James Luceno's Darth Plagueis is an ambitious novel that manages to redeem one of the most-hated elements introduced in TPM. I highly recommend the comic novels
It had a lot of interesting spins on the issue...
 
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