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Comic Book Religion: Which is your favorite?

Gxg (G²)

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Oh, not everything about the "New 52" is bad.
The "Bat-family" seems to do rather well, with a few notable exceptions.

I'm not sure if I'm altogether happy about the resurrection of Jason Todd: on the one hand, there's lots of complex character development to be had here, and his anti-hero status promises lots of interesting story arcs.

However, I feel that death in superhero comics is WAY too transitory to begin with, and Jason Todd had been a very welcome and notable exception to that phenomenon for nearly two decades.

Character deaths ought to MATTER, and not merely be a momentary plot device feigning tragedy. Both Todd and Bucky (the other most notable exception) have been resurrected at this point, and I believe even Peter Parker's Uncle Ben re-appeared at this point (although he hailed from a parallel universe, if memory serves).

Now, I can understand why people would not want popular characters to disappear permanently, and I certainly do not expect main protagonists to remain dead.

But sometimes, deaths ought to MATTER, and a few notable exceptions would dispell some of the cynicism many people feel in relation to superhero demises at this point.
I'm glad to know you don't feel all things with the "New 52" are negative - although I'd have to disagree with you on the issue of Jason Todd. I was actually glad they had it where Jason began assuming a new role as an antihero who resembles Batman in many ways, except with a willingness to use lethal force and weapons. And how he has evolved since then in comic history is noteworthy

The Red Hood Saga was truly amazing...
Jason Todd's death - although having a great level of impact on Bruce - was truly a pointless one. Fans asked for it because they really HATED who Jason Todd was as Robin....and although it is the biggest point of shame Bruce ever had over being Batman, it was something that fans saw as not a huge loss.

History of Jason Todd - The Second Robin - YouTube

Bringing Jason Todd back brought a lot of new elements and purpose...





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Of course, none of that would ever have happened if the D.C Universe never chose to go through alterations as it generally does every couple of decades. I still think it's interesting to see how they did so with Superboy-Prime and many others - and they just recreated the entire series somehow with The New 52 where DC Comics re-established the concept of the Multiverse in 52 Vol 1 which details the creation of 52 realities in the wake of the events of Infinite Crisis (where Superman's alternate version of himself known as Superman-Prime http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Countdown_to_Final_Crisis_Vol_1_13 is corrupt and somehow messed up reality itself...leading to several other storylines already discussed earlier, including Red Hood/Jason Todd in his resurrection).


But to see where things go from here for the Red Hood ...it should be amazing...he truly feels in his element and the concept of belonging is a big deal in the Outlaw series :




 
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Gxg (G²)

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I certainly do not expect main protagonists to remain dead.

But sometimes, deaths ought to MATTER, and a few notable exceptions would dispell some of the cynicism many people feel in relation to superhero demises at this point.

The worst offender in this regard, IMO, was the aftermath of the Dark Phoenix saga and the retcon of Jean Grey, basically annihilating everything that happened by establishing that the Dark Phoenix was essentially an alien doppelganger, while the REAL Jean slept in a cocoon under the sea.

(By the way, the Phoenix (Force) might easily qualify as a comic book deity, no?)
Honestly, the Phoenix Force saga and its many differing developments was always confusing for me. At one point, it used to be Jean - then it switched to not being here. Nonetheless, the concept of the Phoenix Force was truly astounding.

And yes indeed, the Phoenix Force did qualify within the realm of comics as a Comic Book Deity - one of the fundamental forces of the universe, actually, and worshipped within the Shiar Empire. As another noted best, it is "powerful cosmic entity, an immortal being representing all current and future life. It has, at times, chosen a host to live within, granting the vessel outstanding power. It has the power to create or destroy..... the prime universal force of life. It was born of the void, between states of being. It is the origin of all psionic energy and will exist forever in all realities of the omniverse. It is also the Guardian of Creation and of the M'Kraan Crystal in the Shi'Ar Empire. .The Phoenix Force has the power to cut and regrow any part of the universe or destroy it entirely, burning away what it deems "obsolete". " And as said elsewhere for more detail, "The Phoenix Force is an immortal and mutable manifestation of the prime universal force of life and passion. Born of the void between states of being, the Phoenix Force is a child of the universe. It is the nexus of all psionic energy which does, has, and ever will exist in all realities of the omniverse, the Guardian of Creation, and of the dangerously powerful M'Kraan Crystal. The Phoenix is among the most feared beings in all of existence — having the power to cut and re-grow any part of the universe, as well as destroy it entirely, which is part of the Phoenix's purpose: "The Judgment of the Phoenix", to burn away the obsolete. The Phoenix Force is described as being "the embodiment of the very passion of Creation – the spark that gave life to the Universe, the flame that will ultimately consume it."Phoenix has always amazed me - especially when considering how much the concept has been seen to be Biblical and referenced within the Early Church, as it concerns the symbolism of creations that God has made.

For more, one can go here:



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Jane_the_Bane

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Well, originally, Jean Grey was the Phoenix, went rogue, committed horrible deeds when she was corrupted by her almost unlimited power, and chose suicide when the full extent of her fall became clear to her.

But some years later, Marvel executives weren't happy with that ending any longer, and decided to create some convoluted retcon to resurrect her, while simultaneously making sure that the blame for destroying an entire civilization didn't weigh her down.

Thus, the whole story about the "real Jean" being trapped in a cocoon, and the "Dark Phoenix" being an alien entity who had assumed her identity.

While this retcon was somewhat ham-fisted, some good has come from the whole concept of the "Phoenix Force" as such.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Well, originally, Jean Grey was the Phoenix, went rogue, committed horrible deeds when she was corrupted by her almost unlimited power, and chose suicide when the full extent of her fall became clear to her.

But some years later, Marvel executives weren't happy with that ending any longer, and decided to create some convoluted retcon to resurrect her, while simultaneously making sure that the blame for destroying an entire civilization didn't weigh her down.

Thus, the whole story about the "real Jean" being trapped in a cocoon, and the "Dark Phoenix" being an alien entity who had assumed her identity.

While this retcon was somewhat ham-fisted, some good has come from the whole concept of the "Phoenix Force" as such.
I remember the original story line with her simply going insane due to her immense power - although the concept of the Phoenix Force was far more fascinating to me ....just having a crazy mutant did not seem as epic as having a cosmic entity doing damage.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Well, originally, Jean Grey was the Phoenix, went rogue, committed horrible deeds when she was corrupted by her almost unlimited power, and chose suicide when the full extent of her fall became clear to her.

But some years later, Marvel executives weren't happy with that ending any longer, and decided to create some convoluted retcon to resurrect her, while simultaneously making sure that the blame for destroying an entire civilization didn't weigh her down.

Thus, the whole story about the "real Jean" being trapped in a cocoon, and the "Dark Phoenix" being an alien entity who had assumed her identity.

Oh, how lame.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Originally, the Dark Phoenix Saga was supposed to conclude with Jean losing her superpowers, but editorial mandate demanded that she paid the ultimate price.

The limited series "Phoenix: the Untold Story" basically showed readers what the creators originally had in mind, back in 1983.
 
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TerranceL

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I've gotten past Marvel completely flipping around their storylines every few years or so, I've been reading comics for as long as I could read so I'm used to it now.

What still bugs me is that in order to get a characters whole story I would have to buy every comic he's in.. and I refuse to do that.

Which is why I was greatly confused to find out Wolverine was dead and Capt. America was now Falcon and Steve Rogers was old.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Also, Thor is a woman.

I've heard about that, though I don't know many details.

I just can't wrap my mind around that change of sex. I would have absolutely no problem with the introduction of a female member of the Aesir (or Vanir) that was as powerful, or even more powerful, than Thor, but to replace Thor with a female character strikes me as odd. It would be like replacing Superman with Superwoman without expecting audiences to think that something wrong was taking place.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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TerranceL

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I've heard about that, though I don't know many details.

I just can't wrap my mind around that change of sex. I would have absolutely no problem with the introduction of a female member of the Aesir (or Vanir) that was as powerful, or even more powerful, than Thor, but to replace Thor with a female character strikes me as odd. It would be like replacing Superman with Superwoman without expecting audiences to think that something wrong was taking place.


eudaimonia,

Mark

That whole thing is amazingly stupid.

In essence, the Watcher gets killed, his eyes get stolen, whoever holds his eyes knows his secrets.

Bad guy has his eyes, bad guy sends out a pulse that tells people the truth about things.... Thor realizes a deep dark secret... and BAM hammer too heavy to lift. Also, Hulk realizes that Stark had something to do with him being the hulk in the first place.

In Thor #1 we see Odin and Freya talking about how Thor is no longer worthy and whatnot. They leave the hammer on the moon where it was dropped and an unidentified female figure walks up to the hammer and picks it up and BAM GIRLY THOR WAS BORN!

The moment before she picks it up the wording on the hammer changes from:

Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy shall possess the power of thor

To:

Whosoever holds this hammer, if she be worthy shall possess the power of thor

The writer thought he was being clever and allowing women to be thor.. there's just a small problem, the asgardians speak old english in old english "he" when used in third person, is gender neutral. So at first men and women could be thor, now only women.

Keep in mind this storyline starts months after another storyline finished that took place in three timelines, with young thor fighting with vikings against a baddy.. that is young thor without his hammer then modern thor, then far far far future thor as king of asgard. At no point is he called anything other than thor. It's like marvel has forgotten that thor isn't a job title it's a name. When Storm briefly held the hammer she didn't become thor... I don't see why it would happen now.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I've heard about that, though I don't know many details.

I just can't wrap my mind around that change of sex. I would have absolutely no problem with the introduction of a female member of the Aesir (or Vanir) that was as powerful, or even more powerful, than Thor, but to replace Thor with a female character strikes me as odd. It would be like replacing Superman with Superwoman without expecting audiences to think that something wrong was taking place.


eudaimonia,

Mark
Perhaps it's just me - but when it came to the change of Thor to a woman, as much as I had an issue with it, I had to remember that there was already a precedent for that occurring after seeing what happened with Loki. To be clear, I really wasn't understanding the entire concept of Loki coming back as a woman, as that seemed to be pushing almost a Bisexual dynamic...although that would be fitting to one who was akin to the Devil since he has a tendency to break the rules. He was already noted in the comics as Loki - God of Lies - but again, Loki has undergone several changes over the past several years, returning in a female body after Ragnarok and reincarnating in the form of a boy.





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TerranceL

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Loki is a mage and a shapeshifter there is no comparison to what happened to thor.

They didn't give thor a pair of boobs, they took his hammer from him, now he runs around with an axe, they chose a undisclosed woman to wield the hammer and she's the new thor.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Loki is a mage and a shapeshifter there is no comparison to what happened to thor.

They didn't give thor a pair of boobs, they took his hammer from him, now he runs around with an axe, they chose a undisclosed woman to wield the hammer and she's the new thor.
Loki had to be reincarnated in order to be a female - he couldn't just access becoming stuck as one, as happened in the comics. As for Thor, it was never HIS hammer. It's a power, not an identity alone - as Mjolnir (Thor's Hammer) was never for him alone. Several others have lifted it and have possessed the POWER of Thor - that a hammer was named after Thor does not mean only Thor alone (as a male) can wield it and only a male can have the name Thor. Beta Ray Bill wielded it as did Bor, Captain America and several others.


Going back to the concept of Thor, the religious world of Thor is quite complex to consider and thus we should also be aware of that. The Asgardians are not flawless, as even the movies have seen - so why would we expect the comics to be any different?

As the Asgardians are not flawless, who said there cannot be mistakes? We've already seen hints of that before - even in the movies. As said best in one review called CCAS MOVIE REVIEW: Thor - Christian Comic Arts Society:




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In addition to being a fun action movie, Thor also contains underlying spiritual themes for those who are looking for them. Though Thor and the other Asgardians have often been seen as pagan deities, the Marvel comics and the film tend to treat them differently. The comics have described the Asgardians simply as aliens who are so advanced that their technology is indistinguishable from magic, even to themselves. The movie echoes this sentiment when Thor tells Jane that he comes from a place where science and magic are the same thing. Thor and the other Asgardians in this film do not necessarily consider themselves gods; rather, the universe in which they exist tries to blend science and the supernatural together. In this day and age of intellectualism and faithlessness, Jane's fellow scientists are initially skeptical that Thor could actually be supernatural. However, Jane's encounters with Thor stretch the limits of her belief, and at one point she finds herself arguing that the existence of the supernatural isn't such a foolish idea and doesn't necessarily have to contradict intellectualism. She is later proven correct when Thor's full godlike powers return to him on display for all to see. Thor is a film which advocates a reasonable belief in the supernatural and in things or beings which we cannot see or fully explain.

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For other good places for review:
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On the many religions depicted within the world of Thor:[/LEFT]



With Thor's Hammer - which can transfer its power to anyone coming in contact with it -
another female wielding the power of it is like having the power of Juggernaut. ..whoever wields that power shall become powerful.

Supervillain Origins: The Juggernaut - YouTube

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TerranceL

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Loki had to be reincarnated in order to be a female - he couldn't just access becoming stuck as one, as happened in the comics.
The majority of the comics you linked showing female Loki has just one small problem.. in that series Loki and Thor goes to the 10'th realm ruled by angels, all of them female, Thor is quickly captured after making a fool of himself, as soon as the fighting started to turn against them Loki did what Loki does and disappeared. Only to appear again next issue as fem-Loki to taunt the captured Thor, and free him the moment it was right. There was no reincarnation, Loki is the god of tricksters he chose the perfect form for his deception.

As for Thor, it was never HIS hammer. It's a power, not an identity alone - as Mjolnir (Thor's Hammer) was never for him alone. Several others have lifted it and have possessed the POWER of Thor - that a hammer was named after Thor does not mean only Thor alone (as a male) can wield it and only a male can have the name Thor. Beta Ray Bill wielded it as did Bor, Captain America and several others.
You argue a point I didn't make, indeed as I said elsewhere in this thread, Storm even wielded the hammer... which reminds me I need to hunt down that issue... Storm.. the "goddess" of weather herself wielding that hammer must have been impressive.

I also mentioned that the very wording of the original quote upon the hammer said that the sex of the wielder was irrelevant, however the writer of the current Thor #1 changed that.
http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/09/30/12-other-characters-who-have-lifted-thors-hammer-mjolnir
 
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Gxg (G²)

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The majority of the comics you linked showing female Loki has just one small problem.. in that series Loki and Thor goes to the 10'th realm ruled by angels, all of them female, Thor is quickly captured after making a fool of himself, as soon as the fighting started to turn against them Loki did what Loki does and disappeared. Only to appear again next issue as fem-Loki to taunt the captured Thor, and free him the moment it was right. There was no reincarnation, Loki is the god of tricksters he chose the perfect form for his deception.
That still ignores the series BEFORE that event - where Loki died and was reincarnated into a female form afterward. The events of Loki returning as fem-Loki came afterward. This was noted explictly before - which you skipped over. Again,one can read Loki's bio as it's what we have bios on comicvine for. Although he can shapeshift, it is also something where he has been trapped into certain forms without his consent - and it is not long-term. I read through the comics and I'm aware of his power...but that doesn't change where gender transformations are something that can occur against one's will.

As another already noted:


Loki forged another uru hammer similar to Mjolnir that he could use himself. He started another plan to try and start Ragnarok and destroy Asgard. Thor could have stopped him-he always had in the past. But he realized that the greatest possible honor on Asgard was to die fighting as a warrior. Asgard was on a loop, Loki attacks, Thor saves, death, rebirth. Thor accepted the destiny that Loki would eventually destroy Asgard and start Ragnarok-and he could have everyone in Asgard die a warrior's death. But he had to get his own back first, because if he was letting a whole dimension die, he might as well get revenge on his greatest enemy, who had plagued him so much. With a swift stroke of Mjolnir, Thor hacked Loki's head off. Of course, Loki was an amazingly powerful sorcerer, and decapitation didn't kill him. His head still lived, so Thor carried it with him when he traveled to Asgard. Surtur was preparing to unleash an amazing assault on Asgard-that would destroy it unless Thor stopped it. He let Surtur launch the attack-and Asgard was destroyed. But before Thor died, he confronted Those Who Sit Above In Shadow. The powers responsible for Ragnaroks, and he destroyed them. Then Asgard died-carrying Thor with it.

As for Loki, what could he do? Thor had decapitated him. All he could do was sit and watch as his ultimate goal-Ragnarok-was carried-and then scream as he was vanquished in the attack. The last act of Loki-a sad and troubled life, to say the least. But even if his last act was to scream as his greatest plan destroyed him, Loki was still quite possibly the greatest threat to Thor and Asgard-and even in death, in the end-Loki won.

Like all the "dead" Asgardians, Loki was reborn as a human form and imprisoned by Balder to prevent Thor from restoring Asgard. However the fates had a little surprise for him as he was reborn as a female, inhabiting the body of Sif, Thor's true love. Loki has seemingly devoted herself to aiding her brother and former enemy in his quest to restore Asgard but knowing Loki this is undoubtedly a plan she has set into motion to destroy her brother once again. Due to Loki's latest moves Lady Sif remains as the last Aesir that is trapped in human form and Balder discovered that he is a true son of Odin and not just adopted. Balder was then crowned Prince of Asgard. In contrast to Loki's life as a male god the goddess seems to use hidden truths to spin her sinister webs rather then lies.

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[/CENTER]

Again, you can't go against basics in the comic -book storylines....


You argue a point I didn't make, indeed as I said elsewhere in this thread, Storm even wielded the hammer... which reminds me I need to hunt down that issue... Storm.. the "goddess" of weather herself wielding that hammer must have been impressive.
I remember it - and there was another instance where even Wonder-Woman did the same...as I owned the comic from Amalgam where Storm ended up picking up the hammer at one point when DC and Marvel had a cross-over.

And what happened with the recent version of Thor as a female isn't new. One of them, in an older story, was Jane Foster (from an alternate reality) - who was named “Thordis” in this reality and she experienced many of the same adventures that the mainstream Thor did. More has been discussed elsewhere in "To Me My Hammer!" A History of Female "Thor's" in Marvel U











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I also mentioned that the very wording of the original quote upon the hammer said that the sex of the wielder was irrelevant, however the writer of the current Thor #1 changed that.
__________________
I saw where you mentioned the wording. Nonetheless, one must remember that you're dealing first and foremost with ....COMICS. The storylines have changed. Having the hammer change its name from male to female isn't really radical when understanding that the nature of the comic is based in one primary thing - and that's MAGIC. We've already seen where things have shifted rapidly within the world of Thor on several occasions - some things seeming to be limited at times and at others they changed on a dime.

We already have basic examples of that on many levels. In the "Fear Itself" storyline, Hulk actually ended up weilding one of the hammers from an ancient foe of the Norse Gods (one who was actually the Forefather of them all/true King of Asgard and the one all Asgardians fear) and ended up becoming one of the Worthy (Elite Vanguard and Agents of Destruction), defeating Thor again when transformed into NUL Hulk, to which Thor admitted he could never beat Hulk [/LEFT]



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If that could have happened, then there's no reason assuming that the same concept was not possible with the changing of Thor's Hammer from being able to be used by both MEN/WOMEN (based in the Old English of gender-neutral with "if he be worthy") to only being used by a woman (as goes the new change in language with saying "if she be worthy").

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If people are complaining about consistency and the rules, then I would note that they should never been reading THOR SINCE it has never been fully accurate with the theology:



The female character who now wields Thor's Hammer has been said by the creator of the current series (Jason Aaron) to be someone from Thor's universe who will carry it for a time. The series writiers discussed how the new character connects to the broader history of Marvel's Thor, with there being a developing mystery behind the lead character that has yet to be revealed - thus meaning I can't pass judgment on why it's bad to have a female version of Thor, as Thor will still remain himself while another has the title of Thor for serious reasons. I give the series grace in light of what has already happened, as the mid-'80s run on "Thor" is considered one of the highest points in the character's history. For During his time on "Thor," the character also experienced some notable changes -- including becoming a frog during one story arc.

Change is a natural part of Thor's universe. And again, if not even Odin can lift Thor's hammer (even though it was his enchantment that made it what it was), then you already know that perhaps other beings higher than him are involved. As it is, within the world of Thor, we've already seen it where there were other beings greater than the Asgardians who were able to change the rules of the game with regards to the power of weapons - and we know that there are newer dynamics introduced all the time within the world of Thor. At one point, the Asgardians were seen as the ones who made the universe and were eternal - and then it shifted in regards to those known as those who live in Shadow - the gods who actually made the Norse Gods... the beings who sit above the gods of Asgard and who are the authors of the endless Ragnarok cycle being experienced by the Asgardians in the Marvel U, as those Who Sit Above In Shadow' absorb the energies produced by the 'Ragnarok Cycles - but prior to them, no one had any idea of an entire cycle that existed before the Asgardians or of other gods who had the universe in a constant cycle of rebirth/death.



And of course, to introduce those called "Those who Sit Above in Shadow" was not a new concept. It existed earlier in the 80s when a plot from the X-Men was involved:



However, for them to change it to being a matter of them manipulating the Norse gods was a BIG change.




The list goes on with changes in the Marvel Universe - and again on the subject, seeing that Norse Mythology isn't really represented fully in the Marvel Universe, it is not really a surprise that so many changes have happened.
 
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Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
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LokI usurped Sif's body, and discarded it after making sure that Sif would most likely die along with her ancient, cancer-ridden human host.
Unfortunate as that was....though thankful Sif survived.

The theology of how Loki did so and the entire concept of Ragnarok is trippy - much of it seeming very similar to the concept of Hinduism with rebirth cycles and reincarnation.


And speaking of which, on the issue of Hindu religion, it is fascinating that Thor has managed to bring in even Hindu gods into their mythology - as seen in the time Thor actually worked with some of them.

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But of course, they did the same thing in the D.C Universe, as even Wonder Woman teamed up with Hindu gods...

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Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
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Originally, the Dark Phoenix Saga was supposed to conclude with Jean losing her superpowers, but editorial mandate demanded that she paid the ultimate price.

The limited series "Phoenix: the Untold Story" basically showed readers what the creators originally had in mind, back in 1983.
I remember coming across that - although seeing the way that original stories went before, it wasn't really anything new. A lot of the dynamics behind the issue were common knowledge in the 90s.

Superhero Origins: Jean Grey - YouTube
 
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TerranceL

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Annnnd Jean Grey is back, well... young original x-man Jean Grey, along with young Cyclops, young Beast, young Iceman and young Angel.

What do you guys think about the Endless from DC Vertigo comics? They don't really have worshipers they are more of concepts...

Oh and boo @ DC for what they've done to the Vertigo books. Hellblazers Constantine would do horrific things to the new Constantine.
 
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