Something Hard Not to Notice

[~Anastasia~]

GoingByzantine: You bring up indulgences, yet this is a tread about EO, what are your contentions with them? Indulgences are irrelevant in this thread. Asking intercessions from saints can be proven biblically, what else are your contentions?

Restoremysoul: If it were up to the church you speak of then i would be bowing to a Pope, praying to saints, or buying indulgences.

How so? What am i missing?

You said that if it were up to the Eastern Orthodox Church, you would be bowing to a Pope, praying to saints, or buying indulgences.

The Eastern Orthodox Church does not recognize papal authority and has nothing to do with selling indulgences. (You can come to our Church and buy baklava next weekend. But no indulgences!)

As far as the saints, we request intercession of them (which as GB noted, is Biblical), in the same way I might ask my friend to pray for me. But I don't "pray to" a saint any more than I'd pray to my friend.

It's plain to see that you have disagreements with traditional Churches, but you might at least find out what you are actually disagreeing with and who teaches it. And if it were me, I'd actually be looking at why it is believed, just in case I might be wrong. But as it is, your posts appear as uninformed prejudice.

 

[Tzaousios]

Of course, this is what happens when people claim to be the supreme authority and to be direct successors of the Apostles. What did you expect?

Nah, I meant a different cycle.

 

[BobRyan]

RCC? You mean the Catholic Church?

I'm not Catholic. I wouldn't know. I would imagine it is the same though.

You mentioned the Orthodox Church, and that's where I attend.

I became interested in the Orthodox Church through her teachings. Didn't know a soul there.

I just got contacted by someone else who has been reading about Orthodoxy and wants to just walk in, and I made arrangements to meet with them and take them because they don't know anyone (was put in touch with them via someone else). We've had two others show up in the last few weeks.

Ok so you had no Orthodox friends or family and were a ...??? atheist? methodist? Baptist? that suddenly got interested in the EO?? and began to study it and then joined it?

Is that what the other two you mentioned have experienced as well?

You seriously think all the converts are due to marriage? I actually only know one person who is interested in joining because her fiancee is Orthodox. The rest came on their own, not knowing anyone.

I don't even know where a single EO church IS in my area -- how does someone just wake-up and want to join it? It gets to the question in the OP.

I know someone who was at the SBTS (seminary) and became Orthodox after learning about Church history. My FIL was an ordained Baptist Minister with a Th.D. and he is now Orthodox. ...

Some people literally decide to visit out of the blue. Others actually read, like I did, and then decide to visit.

What in the world did they read to make them think that EO was the right way to go from being Baptist???

That is EXACTLY what I am saying. And it is the experience of most of the converts I know.

I still don't know anyone Orthodox outside of the Churches I have been to and online forums like this. No one in my family is or ever has been Orthodox. Not one. None of them support me in it either. Same with my friends. Never knew a single Orthodox Christian until this year.


My family was Baptist. That was the first church I joined. I've been through what feels like almost every Christian denomination. I found the Orthodox Church online. The experience of the other two I mentioned was similar.

Ok so then "out of the blue" you and some others walked into the closest EO church and said I want to read something that would lead me to be EO??

Fine.

What was it??

Mr. Ryan, you are not hiding things very well.

I was expecting a more up-front answer to the basic question.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Calling.

Do you have a link for that?? reference? "more words"??

 

[Tzaousios]

Ok so you had no Orthodox friends or family and were a ...??? atheist? methodist? Baptist? that suddenly got interested in the EO?? and began to study it and then joined it?

Is that what the other two you mentioned have experienced as well?

I don't even know where a single EO church IS in my area -- how does someone just wake-up and want to join it? It gets to the question in the OP.

What in the world did they read to make them think that EO was the right way to go from being Baptist???

Ok so then "out of the blue" you and some others walked into the closest EO church and said I want to read something that would lead me to be EO??

Okay, Socrates, with all of the multiple question marks and repeated questions. What are you trying to tease out here? The smell of incredulity is growing by the second.

 

[James Is Back]

Restoremysoul my friend I would just bow out of this. It's you versus the Anglican,RCC and the EO and you're out numbered.

Besides it's useless trying to debate this. You're not going to convince anyone on their side about their beliefs and vice versa. Beating the dead horse comes to mind again.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

No no...your quick to quote Scripture any other time. Here you go...find the Scripture that supports your position as Byzantine asked.

No ducking around it this time, your ARE going to be accountable for a change.

Lets think logically here. If i say that i am a direct successor of the Apostles and i teach others to buy indulgences (just for one example), and others protest and say i'm wrong, would it then be logical for me to ask for a scripture to prove that im not a successor of the Apostles? Wouldn't it be my false doctrine that already proves this? So isn't your request illogical?

 

[Targaryen]

Do you have a link for that?? reference? "more words"??

How else do you describe the Spirit moving you in a direction you are meant to go?

Gas? Telepathy? GPS?

Come on Bob, do keep up for a change.

 

[GoingByzantine]

Bowing to the Pope is simply something done as a courtesy, a way of showing someone respect.

In the liturgy we bow to Christ. From the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom:

We give You thanks, O invisible King, Who by Your immeasurable power has fashioned all things, and in the greatness of Your mercy has brought all things out of non-existence into being. Look down from heaven, O Lord, upon those who have bowed their heads unto You, for they do not bow to flesh and blood, but to You, the awesome God. Therefore, O Master, grant us of these gifts present before us for our good, according to the need of each; sail with those who sail, travel with those who travel, cure those who are sick, O Physician of souls and bodies.

Seems consistent with Philippians 2:9-11

Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

You act as if we have replaced Jesus with the Pope, ridiculous.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

You said that if it were up to the Eastern Orthodox Church, you would be bowing to a Pope, praying to saints, or buying indulgences.

The Eastern Orthodox Church does not recognize papal authority and has nothing to do with selling indulgences. (You can come to our Church and buy baklava next weekend. But no indulgences!)

As far as the saints, we request intercession of them (which as GB noted, is Biblical), in the same way I might ask my friend to pray for me. But I don't "pray to" a saint any more than I'd pray to my friend.

It's plain to see that you have disagreements with traditional Churches, but you might at least find out what you are actually disagreeing with and who teaches it. And if it were me, I'd actually be looking at why it is believed, just in case I might be wrong. But as it is, your posts appear as uninformed prejudice.

Show me one scripture that teaches us to pray to anyone but God. Show me one that teaches us or gives example of praying to dead people.

 

[Targaryen]

Lets think logically here. If i say that i am a direct successor of the Apostles and i teach others to buy indulgences (just for one example), and others protest and say i'm wrong, would it then be logical for me to ask for a scripture to prove that im not a successor of the Apostles? Wouldn't it be my false doctrine that already proves this? So isn't your request illogical?

Where's your Scrpiture reference as GB asked?

Now you want to play at the logic game? Sorry but you have a question you still need to answer, we've already played your game far too much.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Bowing to the Pope is simply something done as a courtesy, a way of showing someone respect.

In the liturgy we bow to Christ. From the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom:

We give You thanks, O invisible King, Who by Your immeasurable power has fashioned all things, and in the greatness of Your mercy has brought all things out of non-existence into being. Look down from heaven, O Lord, upon those who have bowed their heads unto You, for they do not bow to flesh and blood, but to You, the awesome God. Therefore, O Master, grant us of these gifts present before us for our good, according to the need of each; sail with those who sail, travel with those who travel, cure those who are sick, O Physician of souls and bodies.

Seems consistent with Philippians 2:9-11

Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

You act as if we have replaced Jesus with the Pope, ridiculous.

Peter wouldn't allow it. It seems that if the Pope was his successor that he would follow Peters example.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Well, four against one is hardly proper, and neither is trying to debate illogical arguments. So im done. Good night.

 

[Targaryen]

Well, four against one is hardly proper, and neither is trying to debate illogical arguments. So im done. Good night.

And the cycle repeats itself again

 

[seashale76]

Show me one scripture that teaches us to pray to anyone but God. Show me one that teaches us or gives example of praying to dead people.

I always bring out my same old posts to repeat because it isn't worth making new ones for the same old topics. So...

I pray thee good sir, to hearken unto my post.

There are around six different Greek words that are usually translated into English as 'prayer'. These words encompass supplications, interecessions, thanksgiving, etc. Prayer to the saints IS NOT WORSHIP! I Timothy 2:4 upholds the practice of intercession for others, and we are quite cognizant of the fact that Christ's mediation is what makes intercession possible.

The saints are alive in Christ. Mary, the Theotokos (God bearer) does intercede for us through prayer, as do ALL the saints. When a person asks the Theotokos, or any other saint, to pray for them, it is just like when we ask for anyone else to pray for us. Those in the Church are ALIVE in Christ, because God is the God of the living and not the dead.

As the Paschal Troparion says: Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life!

Scriptures relating to saints being alive in Christ, et cetera:

John 6:47-51
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

John 5:25-29
“Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 27:51-53
“And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.”

John 11:23-27
“Jesus said to her, ‘Your brother will rise.’ Martha said to him, ‘I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day.’ ”

“Jesus told her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?’ ” She said to him, ‘Yes, Lord. I have come to believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, ...’ ”

Matthew 22:32
“ ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

Luke 20:38
“and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Revelation 21:27
“ … but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

John 8:51
“Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death.”

Revelation 5:8-10
“… and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; and they sang a new song, saying, ‘Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,10 and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth.’ ”

Revelation 11:16-18
“And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, ‘We give thanks to thee, Lord God Almighty, who art and who wast, that thou hast taken thy great power and begun to reign. The nations raged, but thy wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, for rewarding thy servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear thy name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.’ ”

Hebrews 12:1
“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us"

Luke 15:7
“I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance.”

Hebrews 12:22-23"No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering,
and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect,"

Revelation 8:3
“I saw another angel who came and stood before the altar holding a golden censer and much incense was given to him that he might add it to the prayers of the saints upon the golden altar that was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense with the prayers of the saints went up before God out of the angel’s hand. And the angel took the censer and he filled it with the fire from the altar and threw it to the earth and there followed peals of thunder, and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake."

We don't pray to the dead but for the dead. Scripture supports it.

2 Maccabees 12:38-46
38 After the battle Judas led his men to the town of Adullam. It was the day before the Sabbath, so they purified themselves according to Jewish custom and then observed the holy day. 39 By the following day it was urgent that they gather up the bodies of the men who had been killed in battle and bury them in their family tombs. 40 But on each of the dead, hidden under their clothes, they found small images of the gods worshiped in Jamnia, which the Law forbids Jews to wear. Everyone then knew why these men had been killed. 41 So they praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge, who reveals what is hidden, 42 and they begged him that this sin might be completely blotted out. Then, Judas, that great man, urged the people to keep away from sin, because they had seen for themselves what had happened to those men who had sinned. 43 He also took up a collection from all his men, totaling about four pounds of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. Judas did this noble thing because he believed in the resurrection of the dead. 44 If he had not believed that the dead would be raised, it would have been foolish and useless to pray for them. 45 In his firm and devout conviction that all of God's faithful people would receive a wonderful reward, Judas made provision for a sin offering to set free from their sin those who had died.

This is considered to be a direct reference to a prayer for a departed person in the NT:

2 Timothy 1:16-18
16 May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. 17 On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. 18 May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus.

In fact- historical evidence that early Christians prayed for the departed abounds (predating the NT compiled as you know it).

 

[James Is Back]

Well, four against one is hardly proper, and neither is trying to debate illogical arguments. So im done. Good night.

Yep when you're outnumbered especially in the GT it's time regardless of what you believe is true or not to say adios

 

[GoingByzantine]

Great post Seashale, hope you don't mind if I copy it into a word document. That is a very full list of scripture supporting intercessions.

 

[seashale76]

Great post Seashale, hope you don't mind if I copy it into a word document. That is a very full list of scripture supporting intercessions.

Feel free. I don't own the scriptures, that's for sure.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Ok so you had no Orthodox friends or family and were a ...??? atheist? methodist? Baptist? that suddenly got interested in the EO?? and began to study it and then joined it?

Is that what the other two you mentioned have experienced as well?


I don't even know where a single EO church IS in my area -- how does someone just wake-up and want to join it? It gets to the question in the OP.






What in the world did they read to make them think that EO was the right way to go from being Baptist???





Ok so then "out of the blue" you and some others walked into the closest EO church and said I want to read something that would lead me to be EO??

Fine.

What was it??





I was expecting a more up-front answer to the basic question.

in Christ,

Bob

My apologies. My answer was not any attempt to hide anything. When I said I found the Orthodox Church online I meant ... that I read the teachings and theologies of a number of different Churches, found I was in agreement with much of what I was reading the Orthodox Church taught, was interested in attending a liturgy, .... and then I went online and found a local Orthodox Church.

And before you ask, yes, the person who I was contacted by who wanted someone to introduce him to the Orthodox Church did exactly the same. Was dissatisfied with the theologies of many different Protestant denominations, found out about the Orthodox Church and became interested by studying the history and theology, and wants to visit an Orthodox Church (and is very interested in converting).

I have only partial information from the others, but the comments sound along the same lines. Only one person I've met in the last year who is interested in the Church found it because her fiancee is Orthodox. The others all came through studying theology/history.

I hope that answers your question.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

I always bring out my same old posts to repeat because it isn't worth making new ones for the same old topics. So...

I dont agree that those scripture teach us to pray for saints to intercede for us, or that they teach us to pray for those who have passed away. I'll leave it at that, good night.