What if we have ALL been 'duped'?

[Imagican]

Part one of two:

Originally Posted by Imagican

. For Satan IS the God of this world to those that WORSHIP HIM as God. Plenty capable of performing LYING wonders and miracles. And for those that don't KNOW how to tell the difference, Satan IS God as far as they can TELL.
​

In the first entrance of evil into the world, the temptation is referred only to the serpent. To imply anything else is to go beyond what the Bible states.

If we were to take the few words offered in Genesis, and PRETEND that there is nothing else offered in the rest of the Bible, what you offer would make perfect sense. But that is not the case. We have LOTS of information offered 'after the fact' that allows us to come to a more PERFECT understanding. Understanding of the NATURE of the serpent is paramount to understanding exactly HOW evil was introduced into the world. Serpents, by and of themselves, DO NOT SPEAK. So this was a 'special' or 'unique' serpent. And when we see it referred to later in the Bible as 'that old serpent: Satan, we are THEN able to have a better understanding of EXACTLY what happened in the garden.

And that by the God of this world the supreme Being is meant, who in his judgment gave over the minds of the unbelieving Jews to spiritual darkness, so that destruction came upon them to the uttermost
of THIS WORLD, means simply mankind at large in their state of probation in this lower world, in opposition to their state in the world to come.

God is the 'God of this world' ONLY to those that worship HIM instead of His enemy. To those that live FOR this world, God is NOT 'their God'. Nor is your statement correct. THE God OF THIS WORLD is not the Father of Christ. The ONLY context in which 'the God of this world' is 'the Supreme Being' is to those that worship Satan.

Lower world, Upper world????? Where did you find THAT in the Bible? Probation???? That's an even BETTER ONE. Show us THAT one in the Bible.

There IS NO 'world to come' for the wicked. Just annihilation.

The same meaning the word has in several other places, to which l need not refer; it simply implying the present state of things, governed by the Divine providence, in contradistinction from the eternal state: and it is very remarkable that, in 1 Timothy 1:17, God himself is called τω δε βασιλει των αιωνων, the King of the WORLD; what we call King eternal; but here it evidently means him who governs both worlds, and rules in time and eternity.

Contradistinction. Boy, you sure know how to USE EM. Don't recall that word in the Bible either. Wouldn't it be MORE prudent and EASIER just to accept and use the words we are offered in God's Word rather than insist upon making up our own?

I have friends that THINK by using BIG words they are saying MORE. When the TRUTH is, most of the time they use such 'big words' to say LESS. I wonder if this isn't the case here.

So, when Christ was asked, "how shall we pray?", his offering, "Thy Kingdom COME, thy will be done......". What do these words mean? "Thy Kingdom COME"? The indication is that God's Kingdom was YET to come when these words were uttered.

Some, and particularly the ancient fathers, have connected and have read the verse: But God hath blinded the minds of the unbelievers of this world, Theophylact, and Augustine, all plead for the above meaning; and St. Augustine says that it was the opinion of almost all the ancients
The Adam Clarke Commentary
2 Corinthians 4 - Adam Clarke Commentary Originally Posted by Imagican

He has dominion over this planet

John 12:31King James Version (KJV) 31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.



Ephesians 2:2King James Version (KJV)
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience


​

What? God is the only one who has dominion of the whole earth and heavens.
Ps 24:1 A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

NO, God is NOT the 'only one' who has POWER here on this earth. The Bible SPECIFICALLY denotes Satan as having DOMINION over THIS WORLD. While God is certainly MORE powerful, He has ALLOWED Satan to BE the 'prince of this world'. Having DOMINION over ALL that live FOR this world.

Ps 89:11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.

All this offers is that God is Creator and therefore OWNER of the planet. But I'm not talking about the PLANET itself. I'm talking about the WORLD. Governments, PEOPLE, ideas, concepts, etc...........Other than BELIEVERS, the rest of humanity BELONGS to Satan.

1Ch 29:11 Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine;thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all.

This can ONLY be true to BELIEVERS. These words mean NOTHING to UNbelievers. Try to convince an atheist that God is the OWNER of this Earth. And UNBELIEVERS do NOT belong to GOD. They have chosen a path that SEPARATES them from God.

Dan 4:3 How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.

Once again, these words ONLY have ANY meaning to BELIEVERS. They have ABSOLUTELY no influence on the UNBELIEVERS. There is NO SUCH recognition among the NON BELIEVERS.

Originally Posted by Imagican

and can offer whatever exists in the physical world as incentive to WORSHIP HIM. MEC
​

It sounds to me like you have elvated your satan to the status of a god. The term devil is also derived from the same Indo-European root word for deva, which roughly translates as "angel."
It is easy to see how modern religions falsely adapted the satan to mean "fallen angel".

I have not elevated Satan to ANY extent. That's not something "I" am capable of. Satan IS a fallen angel. And it is the Bible that teaches us WHO God's enemy is. NOT ME. And he is NOT 'my Satan' any longer. I explained that I was ONCE his son and he my father. But that was LONG ago. I worship God through His Son NOW.

And this has not ALTERED my understanding, only ENHANCED it.

continued:

 

[Imagican]

part two of two:

Consider this: If there were such an opponent and foe of God (Satan) as Christianity claims, don't you think God is capable of eliminating His created angel with a mere breath - or thought (anthropomorphically speaking)? If God spoke him (Satan) into existence; God could simply quit speaking and Satan would simply cease to exist.
(Abraham Joshua Heschel, The Prophets, Jewish Publication Society, 1962, Philip Birnbaum,
Encyclopedia of Jewish Concepts, Hebrew Publishing Company, 1991, Aryeh Kaplan, Jewish Meditation, Schocken Books, 1985.).

Absolutely. If God so willed, Satan WOULD be eliminated with a blink of His eye. And the time will come. But NOT yet. And it was NOT determined that it would be so. God is going to allow His SON to defeat their enemy. So your attempt to pretend Satan doesn't exist because God could destroy him offers NOTHING of substance to indicate he DOESN'T exist. So, now YOU are trying to say that YOU know the workings of GOD'S MIND? Why not just turn to the Bible for understanding. It EXPLAINS that it will be God's SON that will defeat Satan in the END.

A little inside information: God STILL LOVES Satan. And when Satan is destroyed, I can assure you that it will cause God GRIEF. As in ANY of His creation that is destroyed. He has ALLOWED Satan to RULE this world in order to WEED out those unworthy of 'more life'. The ENTIRETY of mankind's existence can be SUMMED up in the story of JOB. While the MAJORITY of mankind will be seduced by Satan, there WILL be the FEW that are able to OVERCOME. Just as JOB was able to OVERCOME when ALL around him seemed to have fallen.

Devil שֵׂד H7700 shêd spoiler, destroyer from H7736 שׁוּד shûd devastate, waste Ps 106:37; De 32:17
Devil שׂעיר H8163 śâ‛ı̂yr hairy, goat, kid, rough, satyr. Le 17:7; 2Ch 11:15
διάβολος G1228 accuser, slanderer. compare [H7854] Mt 4:1 [36 verses found]

δαιμονίζομαι G1139 daimonizomai be vexed with distributed fortunes Mt 15:22 [thirteen verses found]
δαιμόνιον G1140 daimonion from G1142 δαίμων From δαίω daiō to distribute Mt 8:31 [5 verses found]


Devil OE fēond 'an enemy, of Gmc origin. from Greek: or diábolos = slanderer or accuser
© Oxford University Press, 2004

You continually try to use DEFINITIONS instead of simply accepting what is offered. And in doing so, you merely talk around and around in circles without ever even offering anything of significance. You oppose what I offer OUT of the Bible, yet don't REALLY seem to have any answers other than DEFINITIONS. And definitions which are OBVIOUSLY contrary definitions to what OTHER GREEK SCHOLARS determined HUNDREDS or even THOUSANDS of years ago. Your indication is that it took men of OTHER languages to 'go back' and try and LEARN Greek in order to determine what men THOUSANDS of years ago ALREADY KNEW. But instead of accepting what men of GREATER stature offered, you would suggest that we ALTER every USE of certain words in order to create a NEW understanding. Sorry, that just doesn't make ANY sense to me whatsoever. For in essence, you are trying to offer that God has NO POWER to preserve His Word.

Demon or daemon The original Greek word daimon does not carry the negative connotation initially understood by implementation of the Koine δαιμόνιον (daimonion), and later ascribed to any cognate words sharing the root.
ME: from med. L., from L. daemon (or its dimin. daemonium), from Gk daimōn 'deity, genius'.

The word "demon" (or daemon) comes from the Greek "daimon", which means "spirit". In ancient times, this term denoted spirits in general, without making a distinction between good or evil.
Seir Seirath, hairy; goat; demon; tempest Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary

Hebrew demon (שׂעיר)
'sā-tən OE, via late L. and Gk from Heb. śāṭān, lit. 'adversary', from śāṭan 'plot against'.
Middle English, from Old English, from Late Latin, from Greek, from Hebrew śāṭān adversary

I find it amusing that you have accused me of adding to what we are offered concerning the 'serpent in the garden'. Yet you insist that those who Christ cast demons out of as being plagued with 'mental problems'. Yet the Bible doesn't offer a WORD indicating such. NO offering about people mentally unstable. What it DOES offer are those being possessed of 'evil spirits' with the power to cause them to hurt themselves. How is it that it's OK for YOU to add to what is offered, but in my case, it's a mistake?

Ok, so now a couple of questions:

WHO is the 'Father of LIES'? Who are the 'first and second beasts' referred to in Revelation? WHO is going to do Battle with Christ? Who is going to be locked away for a thousand years?

You see, you are NOT going to have answers to these questions. You will end up talking AROUND my questions instead of answering them for you CANNOT answer them without the TRUTH.

And the most IMPORTANT question: Are you a Universal Reconciliationist? Do you practice what is known as Universal Reconciliation?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[he-man]

Understanding of the NATURE of the serpent is paramount to understanding exactly HOW evil was introduced into the world. Serpents, by and of themselves, DO NOT SPEAK./quote] Right, and donkeys do not speak by themselves either!

Nor is your statement correct. THE God OF THIS WORLD is not the Father of Christ. The ONLY context in which 'the God of this world' is 'the Supreme Being' is to those that worship Satan.

Not my words, the words quoted are from the ANCIENTS:
"Some, and particularly the ancient fathers, have connected and have read the verse: But God hath blinded the minds of the unbelievers of this world, "Theophylact, and Augustine, all plead for the above meaning; and St. Augustine says that it was the opinion of almost all the ancients
The Adam Clarke Commentary
2 Corinthians 4 - Adam Clarke Commentary
And that by the God of this world the supreme Being is meant, 1 Timothy 1:17, God himself is called τω δε βασιλει των αιωνων, the King of the WORLD; what we call King eternal

There IS NO 'world to come' for the wicked. Just annihilation.

Agreed "Thy Kingdom COME, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven".

John 12:31King James Version (KJV) 31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

And if you read the rest it shows it is speaking of Christ, not your devil, as you seem to imply.
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience

(Ref: New KJV/Amplified/Revised)

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the PRINCE of the power OF THE AIR, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Who are the children of disobedience?​

Mat 13:38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked.

WHO was that PRINCE that Paul used in his expression?
Shu (Su) was the god of dry air, wind and the atmosphere. He was also related to the sun, possibly as an aspect of sunlight. He was theson of the creator god, father of the twin sky and the earth deities and the one who held the sky off of the earth.​

He was one of the gods who protected Ra on his journey through the underworld, using magic spells to ward off Ra's enemy, the water snake-demon Apep. ​

As with other protector gods, he had a darker side - he was also a god of punishment in the land of the dead, leading executioners and torturers to kill off the corrupt souls. His name might be derived from the word for dryness - shu, the root of words such as 'dry', 'parched', 'withered', 'sunlight' and 'empty'. His name could also mean 'He who Rises Up'.

NO, God is NOT the 'only one' who has POWER here on this earth. The Bible SPECIFICALLY denotes Satan as having DOMINION over THIS WORLD.

What verse do you quote, my Bible says differently:

Dan 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men. 25 ...till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
Psa 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth. Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? ​

Ps 24:1 A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

All this offers is that God is Creator and therefore OWNER of the planet. the rest of humanity BELONGS to Satan.

1Ch 29:11 Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine;thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all.

Dan 4:3 How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.
​

Satan IS a fallen angel

Explain what verse you quote for that statement.
The term devil is also derived from the same Indo-European root word for deva, which roughly translates as "angel." It is easy to see how modern religions falsely adapted the satan to mean "fallen angel".

continued: Why not just turn to the Bible for understanding. It EXPLAINS that it will be God's SON that will defeat Satan in the END.

Why not just turn to the Bible for understanding. His dying seems an awfully weak way to eliminate anything other than the original sin of death itself! Who were the false accusers that had him murdered on the tree?
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the false accusers; ​

1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

​

​

He has ALLOWED Satan to RULE this world in order to WEED out those unworthy of 'more life'.

Dan 4:25 ...till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

And definitions which are OBVIOUSLY contrary definitions to what OTHER GREEK SCHOLARS determined HUNDREDS or even THOUSANDS of years ago.

What? was St. Augustine a Modern day Scholar, or an Ancient Scholar because he says, " that it was the opinion of almost all the ancients?
But God hath blinded the minds of the unbelievers of this world, Theophylact, and Augustine, all plead for the above meaning; and St. Augustine says that it was the opinion of almost all the ancients​

The Adam Clarke Commentary

Yet you insist that those who Christ cast demons out of as being plagued with 'mental problems'. Yet the Bible doesn't offer a WORD indicating such.

Don't know what Bible you use but mine says: Luk 8:35 Then they went out to see what was done; and came to Jesus, and found the man, out of whom the devils were departed, sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid. KJV

Ok, so now a couple of questions:

WHO is the 'Father of LIES'? Who are the 'first and second beasts' referred to in Revelation? WHO is going to do Battle with Christ? Who is going to be locked away for a thousand years?

John answers that for you:

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Sin universally is a lie, and, when personified, is a liar. It is also a slanderer, and a slanderer of God. And is expressed by James. "Every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed; then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin when it is finished bringeth forth death" (James 1:14).​

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked, (contaminated paternity of the lusts of their fathers, who also murdered our Christ)

And the most IMPORTANT question: Are you a Universal Reconciliationist? Do you practice what is known as Universal Reconciliation?

Absolutly NOT.​

 

[Imagican]

sorry for the delayed response. I completely recovered my computer and it has taken DAYS to get it back to where it was before. you know, recovering all my applications, passwords, etc, etc, etc.......The GOOD thing is that it's LIGHTENING fast again. I had forgotten how fast it was when it was new.

OK, regardless of your continual post of what YOU believe the ancients BELIEVED so far as these lines of scripture are concerned, here is the REALITY that places it in perspective:

Christ has NEVER been CAST OUT of this world since it's inception. For you to indicate that it's even possible is to deny Christ Himself. Christ is the Son of the LIVING God. And He is STILL the Son of the Living God. And Christ Himself LIVES. For each and everyone that BELIEVES and FOLLOWS as instructed, Christ LIVES within their HEARTS. So He is STILL HERE. Therefore, He has NEVER been 'cast out' of this Earth.

John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

John 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

John 16:11
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience

Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Now, let's see, FOUR pieces of scripture that ALL mention the 'prince of this world'. the second one I quoted has Christ offering that the 'prince of this world has: "NOTHING IN ME". The third states that the 'prince of this world' is to be JUDGED. The fourth says that the 'prince of this world' is the SPIRIT that now worketh in the 'children of DISOBEDIENCE'. And AGAIN states that 'the prince of this world' is to be JUDGED.

I don't know of a SINGLE line of the Bible that offers that Christ WILL EVER BE JUDGED. Don't know of a line that indicates that Christ is the 'spirit' that worketh in the 'children of disobedience'.

So, common sense would dictate that the MANNER to determine WHO the 'prince of this world' IS would be to follow the trail of EVIDENCE. Not try and MAKE the words FIT what we want to BELIEVE. But simply read and accept what we are reading as it is OFFERED.

Three times the term 'prince of this world' is used to denote an entity that is NOT Christ. And we KNOW this for we KNOW that Christ is NOT going to be judged. And we know that Christ is NOT 'the spirit' that worketh in the 'children of disobedience'.

So if we DETERMINE that the 'prince of this world' in those THREE scriptures is NOT Christ, but some OTHER 'spirit', it is pretty clear that we no longer have to GUESS whether or not Christ IS the 'prince of this world', we KNOW the answer.

Christ is NOT the 'prince of this world'. Certainly not the 'prince of this world' used in the scriptures in question.

Understand how hard it is going to be to continue to take what you post seriously if you continue to insist upon this inane concept of Christ BEING the 'entity' referred to as the 'prince of this world'. I have now given you ample evidence to the CONTRARY.

Now, let us focus on some different scripture:

Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Luke 10:

18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Three DISTINCT references of Satan being 'cast out of heaven'. One even mentioning Christ WITNESSING it. One STATING that he was cast OUT of heaven and INTO this Earth. And one STATING that both he AND his angels fought and were cast out of heaven. Satan AND the angels that sided with him.


You see, I am a FIRM believer that the King James Version of the Bible was INSPIRED by God. Commissioned by King James, but INSPIRED by God. And I place my TRUST in the scholars that could both read, write and SPEAK Greek FLUENTLY, to have translated the Bible as close as possible from the original languages to English. I DO NOT believe, nor have I been convicted, that I NEED to learn GREEK in order to understand God's Word as delivered and translated.


Some insist that they can rummage through the Bible and pick bits and pieces to form doctrine. I am NOT one of these. I am a FIRM believer that the Bible is a LESSON offered as a WHOLE and NOT in bits and pieces. That means that the ONLY way one can come to the TRUTH is to compare EACH and EVERY LINE of the Bible TO each other to make SURE we have the proper context and understanding. Not a single line in and of itself has ANY proper meaning without being compared to ALL OTHERS.


The concept of Satan STARTS in Genesis and is revealed more and more as one progresses through the Bible. You are trying to insist that since everything isn't in an order that pleases you that it simply doesn't exist. This is utter fallacy. Whether intentional or by mistake makes no difference. The TRUTH is, the concept of Satan and the angels that rebelled WITH him DOES exist in the entirety of scripture.


Short on time right now but I'll be back soon to address your last post in more detail.



Blessings,


MEC

 

[Imagican]

Oh, and something I was thinking about the other day.

It has been mentioned that the Bible only offers the use of the name Satan a couple of time in the OT.

I disagree. I believe that the mention of ANY OTHER god other than God Himself is in reference to the MANY faces of Satan.

Every time the OT mentions 'spiritual adultery', in MY opinion, it is referencing those that worshiped Satan instead of God. And Satan has MANY guises. Baal, Mammon, Molech, Astoreth all the ancient gods of the Babylonians, Egyptians, Greeks, ALL these that are worshiped AS God that are NOT God are the myriad faces of Satan.

With this in mind, the OT is RIFE in it's depictions of Satan. There is just about as MUCH written ABOUT these 'false Gods' as the one and only TRUE God. It is merely a matter Satan revealing himself in many different forms.

And that doesn't MATTER to Satan: what we or anyone of the past names him, ALL he is concerned with is that men WORSHIP him instead of God. Doesn't matter what name is used. Heck, he will even accept worship under the names of God or Jesus or the Son of God. Doesn't matter to him. So long as men worship HIM, he couldn't care LESS what names men give him.

David Koresh and Jim Jones were introducing their followers to a God and Jesus Christ. But it's OBVIOUS that the TRUE God or His Son were NOT those being introduced. For there is NO WAY that men would have followed Jim or Davey Baby if they had KNOWN the TRUE God or His Son. So Jim and Dave were just USING NAMES to convince men to follow THEIR GOD: Satan.

The Bible TELLS US that Satan will one day manifest himself in the flesh and set himself up in the temple AS GOD. And men will WORSHIP him AS GOD. That is in the END. What we are also instructed, when we take the pages of the Bible as a WHOLE, that Satan has had men worship him as GOD since shortly after the incident in the garden.

Heck, we see God's children being freed from the Egyptians, and as soon as they set up camp having Aaron build a golden calf to worship while Moses was up on the mountain collecting God's first instructions.

Satan has NO PROBLEM being worshiped as a 'golden calf'. Or a 'golden frog' or 'flower' or whatever men choose to worship him as. Doesn't matter to him so long as HE receives the worship INSTEAD of God.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[he-man]

I completely recovered my computer and it has taken DAYS to get it back to where it was before.

Thanks, I know what you mean. I, too, had the same problem and now I use AVG to protect my computer. Works great and it is free.

AGAIN states that 'the prince of this world' is to be JUDGED.I don't know of a SINGLE line of the Bible that offers that Christ WILL EVER BE JUDGED.

He was judged a criminal when they picked a murderer to live, instead of our Christ. Act 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

I don't know what else you could call it if he was not judged by the priests and elders.
Mat 27:20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.

Don't know of a line that indicates that Christ is the 'spirit' that worketh in the 'children of disobedience'.

Don't know where you came up with that line of thought. It says very plainly "WE, in the lusts of our flesh"

What do you think the Greek word, "G758 αρχων archōn means? Maybe magistrate, prince, ruler?

Who then, is the ruler of the power of the air?

Shu (Su) was the god of dry air, wind and the atmosphere. He was also related to the sun, possibly as an aspect of sunlight. He was the son of the creator god, father of the twin sky and the earth deities and the one who held the sky off of the earth.

He was one of the gods who protected Ra on his journey through the underworld, using magic spells to ward off Ra's enemy, the water snake-demon Apep. As with other protector gods, he had a darker side - he was also a god of punishment in the land of the dead, leading
executioners and torturers to kill off the corrupt souls.

His name might be derived from the word for dryness - shu, the root of words such as 'dry', 'parched', 'withered', 'sunlight' and 'empty'. His name could also mean 'He who Rises Up'.​

They even prayed to shu, to give them wind in their sails. So it is easy to see where the false idea of a satan and of eternal torture came from.

Eph 2:2 ..according to the prince of the power of the air
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Christ is NOT the 'prince of this world'.

Be Careful...Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. God is the ruler of this world not, shu nor satan.

Dan 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
I have now given you ample evidence to the CONTRARY.

Now, let us focus on some different scripture: Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Isaiah 14:12 addresses the conquered king of Babylon as Lucifer “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!” This verse was interpreted by early Christians as referring to Satan. The name originally refers to the planet we call Venus; but because of its use in this verse has come to be connected with the tradition of Satan’s fall from Heaven.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.

While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.

Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition. [/FONT]

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

John answered that for you. Do you know what FUTURE TENSE means? Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked, (contaminated paternity of the lusts of their fathers, who also murdered our Christ)

The term devil is also derived from the same Indo-European root word for deva, which roughly translates as "angel."
It is easy to see how modern religions falsely adapted the satan to mean "fallen angel".

Some insist that they can rummage through the Bible and pick bits and pieces to form doctrine. I am NOT one of these. I am a FIRM believer that the Bible is a LESSON offered as a WHOLE and NOT in bits and pieces. That means that the ONLY way one can come to the TRUTH is to compare EACH and EVERY LINE of the Bible.

So why are you avoiding it?

The concept of Satan STARTS in Genesis The TRUTH is, the concept of Satan and the angels that rebelled WITH him DOES exist in the entirety of scripture.

Better check your OT first and see for yourself [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Satan Sa'tan. The word itself, the Hebrew satan, is simply an "adversary," and is so used in 1 Sam 29:4; 2 Sam 19:22; 1 Kin 6:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Numb 22:22, 33; Psa 109:6

This original sense is still found in our Lord's application of the name to St. Peter in Matt 16:23

It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, vis. (with the article) in Job 1:6, 12; 2:1; Zech 2:1 and without the article in 1 Chr 21:1 [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Smith's Bible Dictionary; Nelson's Electronic Bible

There is no unambiguous reference to the Devil in the Torah, the Prophets, or the Writings.
Carus P. History of the Devil and the Idea of Evil

David Joris (c. 1501–1556, Against this is his rationalist approach to the topic of the devil and supernatural evil. David Joris anticipated the views of Thomas Hobbes, John Epps and Dr. John Thomas in interpreting the devil as an allegory[/FONT]

 

[o2bwise]

At a real high level, just a couple thoughts.

One, the Bible is extremely cryptic.

Two, perfect discernment is a characteristic of perfect holiness of character and imperfect discernment a characteristic of imperfection of character.

Lacking complete agreement is to be expected. No big deal.

 

[he-man]

At a real high level, just a couple thoughts.

One, the Bible is extremely cryptic.

Just an illusion for people who do not wish to know the truth, then it is As clear as mud.

Encrypted Text
EMUFPHZLRFAXYUSDJKZLDKRNSHGNFIVJ
YQTQUXQBQVYUVLLTREVJYQTMKYRDMFD

Decrypted Text
Between subtle shading and the absence of light lies the subtle distinction of illusion.

Who then, is the ruler of the power of the air?

Shu (Su) was the god of dry air, wind and the atmosphere. He was also related to the sun, possibly as an aspect of sunlight. He was the son of the creator god, father of the twin sky and the earth deities and the one who held the sky off of the earth.

He was one of the gods who protected Ra on his journey through the underworld, using magic spells to ward off Ra's enemy, the water snake-demon Apep. As with other protector gods, he had a darker side - he was also a god of punishment in the land of the dead, leading
executioners and torturers to kill off the corrupt souls.

His name might be derived from the word for dryness - shu, the root of words such as 'dry', 'parched', 'withered', 'sunlight' and 'empty'. His name could also mean 'He who Rises Up'.​

They even prayed to shu, to give them wind in their sails. So it is easy to see where the false idea of a satan and of eternal torture came from.

Eph 2:2 ..according to the prince of the power of the air
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Dan 2:21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:

Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. God is the ruler of this world not, shu nor satan.

Dan 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
I have now given you ample evidence to the CONTRARY.

Isaiah 14:12 addresses the conquered king of Babylon as Lucifer “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!” This verse was interpreted by early Christians as referring to Satan. The name originally refers to the planet we call Venus; but because of its use in this verse has come to be connected with the tradition of Satan’s fall from Heaven.

Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.

While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.

Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

The magistrates have been dethroned

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
​

Do you know what FUTURE TENSE means? Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked, (contaminated paternity of the lusts of their fathers, who also murdered our Christ)

The term devil is also derived from the same Indo-European root word for deva, which roughly translates as "angel."
It is easy to see how modern religions falsely adapted the satan to mean "fallen angel". ​

Satan Sa'tan. The word itself, the Hebrew satan, is simply an "adversary," and is so used in 1 Sam 29:4; 2 Sam 19:22; 1 Kin 6:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Numb 22:22, 33; Psa 109:6

This original sense is still found in our Lord's application of the name to St. Peter in Matt 16:23

It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, vis. (with the article) in Job 1:6, 12; 2:1; Zech 2:1 and without the article in 1 Chr 21:1
Smith's Bible Dictionary; Nelson's Electronic Bible

There is no unambiguous reference to the Devil in the Torah, the Prophets, or the Writings.
Carus P. History of the Devil and the Idea of Evil

David Joris (c. 1501–1556, Against this is his rationalist approach to the topic of the devil and supernatural evil. David Joris anticipated the views of Thomas Hobbes, John Epps and Dr. John Thomas in interpreting the devil as an allegory

 

[o2bwise]

Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation, Zechariah - yeah, real straightforward stuff.

 

[Imagican]

Let me offer my perspective in this manner:

47 scholars spent seven years of their lives to translate the King James Version of the Bible. Many of those scholars were so versed in Greek that the debated the Bible in Greek. As each part of the Bible was translated, the GROUP got together and discussed each and every part BEFORE it was agreed upon to be as close as they could get it from the documents they were using.

47 of the brightest and most devoted individuals King James could find in his Kingdom. These were professors of universities who took the challenge as seriously as could be imagined. Just read the preface and see if the words don't have quite a somber 'ring' to them. These men were DEVOTED to their task. And from what I have learned from MY studies, men devoted to God as well. It was a DIFFERENT time and men were DIFFERENT then as well. More 'Spiritual' you might say, than men of TODAY.

And let me offer this, he man: If the Catholic Church had REALLY wanted to alter the Bible in the manner you have indicated, they would CERTAINLY have altered the parts that directly speak out AGAINST their own faith. So that conclusion doesn't 'add up'. While there may well be words or even lines of scripture that were not PERFECTLY translated, it is NOT about letters or words on pieces of paper to begin with. It is about God's Word that can ONLY be understood through guidance of the Holy Spirit. At least that is what we are offered. That to 'this world' and those that live FOR IT, the words contained within the Bible are but 'foolishness'. Unable to be understood by mere intellect or effort. ONLY able to be revealed in TRUTH through the Holy Spirit.

So you see, it is not merely a matter of reading the Bible or what others have written that has led me to my beliefs. I offer testimony and witness that my understanding has been revealed THROUGH the Holy Spirit. My understanding is NOT MY OWN. For what I have come to understand through the Bible is about as CONTRARY to what I WOULD CHOOSE to understand as anything possible. Before the understanding that has been revealed was offered, MY understanding was about 180 degrees DIFFERENT. It is my witness and testimony that my understanding is NOT MY OWN, but given me through the Holy Spirit.

Is my understanding COMPLETE? By NO MEANS. There is more I have to learn, by FAR, than what has already been revealed. But as concerns Satan and his demons? I have personally witnessed enough to plainly illustrate not only their EXISTENCE, but the influence they have have had in my own LIFE.

In other words, I have witnessed ENOUGH evidence in my OWN life to KNOW what I speak of when I speak of Satan or his minions. Couple that with what we are offered in the Bible and the picture become perfectly CLEAR.

Satan WAS an angel. When God decided to create MEN and chose His Son as the instrument of their creation, Satan felt betrayed. He felt that this event should have been HIS to perform. That God SHOULD have chosen HIM instead of another. And for this cause, he decided to rebel. And he wasn't alone. There were many OTHER angels that also felt that the task should have been given to Satan. They rebelled with him. A battle took place in which Satan and his angels were defeated and CAST OUT of heaven and down to this Earth.

And it has been Satan's desire ever since to THWART the 'creation' he felt should have been his own. To subvert men into following HIM as God. To turn men's hearts AGAINST God and convince them, (influence them), to follow HIM instead.

The Bible even tells us that he would ACCOMPLISH his mission if God doesn't intervene. That even God's VERY ELECT would be led astray, (end up followers of Satan), if God does not 'cut the days short'.

And it also explains that at that time, Satan will once again be defeated and separated from mankind for a thousand years.

While the Bible does not put this concept in such plain words, if one takes it as a WHOLE, it is pretty clear to see that this condensed version is pretty accurate.

But if one were to choose to follow the path that he man suggests, NONE of it makes ANY sense. Not when we compare what he offers to the Bible itself.

For what you are offering is that we disregard the ENTIRE BIBLE and learn Greek so we can RE translate it ourselves.

But it is MY contention that if "I" were to DO SO, I would end up with the same Bible that already exists. If I were to learn Greek and attempt to 're translate' the Bible, it would come out the same way that my Bible already exists. For in truth, the Bible is merely the BEGINNING of wisdom and understanding. It offers CONVICTION of what I have already come to know through personal experience.

And once again allow me to OFFER this: It is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE to defend oneself against an UNKNOWN or UNRECOGNIZED enemy. For if you do NOT KNOW that an enemy exists, you cannot take the proper steps to defend yourself against them. It is the way with LIFE and it is this way with Satan. Resist the devil and he will FLEE. Ignore the devil and he will OWN you.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Unix]

Imagican, please have a look at G B Caird on Wikipedia! He was on the translation team of the Revised English Bible (REB). These same things could be said about him:

Let me offer my perspective in this manner:

47 scholars spent seven years of their lives to translate the King James Version of the Bible. Many of those scholars were so versed in Greek that the debated the Bible in Greek. As each part of the Bible was translated, the GROUP got together and discussed each and every part BEFORE it was agreed upon to be as close as they could get it from the documents they were using.

47 of the brightest and most devoted individuals King James could find in his Kingdom. These were professors of universities who took the challenge as seriously as could be imagined. Just read the preface and see if the words don't have quite a somber 'ring' to them. These men were DEVOTED to their task. And from what I have learned from MY studies, men devoted to God as well. It was a DIFFERENT time and men were DIFFERENT then as well. More 'Spiritual' you might say, than men of TODAY.

 

[he-man]

Satan WAS an angel.

Dan 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

And once again allow me to OFFER this: It is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE to defend oneself against an UNKNOWN or UNRECOGNIZED enemy. For if you do NOT KNOW that an enemy exists, you cannot take the proper steps to defend yourself against them. Blessings, MEC

Yes, then you must be deluded, if you ignore what the Bible teaches, because Isaiah 14:12 addresses the conquered king of Babylon as Lucifer:

“How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!” This verse was interpreted by early Christians as referring to Satan. The name originally refers to the planet we call Venus; but because of its use in this verse has falsely come to be connected with the tradition of Satan’s fall from Heaven.

Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.

While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.

Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

The magistrates have been dethroned, The kings and chief priests of all evil falling from their sad eminence and thrones of power in an instant, prophetic of the time of the end.

Most people who are deluded by Is 14:12 also ignorantly refer to Rev 12:9, not realizing that it clearly says that these things will happen in the FUTURE of John, NOT in the Past, or to have already happened.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Do you know what FUTURE TENSE means? Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked, (contaminated paternity of the lusts of their fathers, who also murdered our Christ)

The term devil is also derived from the same Indo-European root word for deva, which roughly translates as "angel."
It is easy to see how modern religions falsely adapted the satan to mean "fallen angel".

Satan Sa'tan. The word itself, the Hebrew satan, is simply an "adversary," and is so used in 1 Sam 29:4; 2 Sam 19:22; 1 Kin 6:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Numb 22:22, 33; Psa 109:6

This original sense is still found in our Lord's application of the name to St. Peter in Matt 16:23

It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, vis. (with the article) in Job 1:6, 12; 2:1; Zech 2:1 and without the article in 1 Chr 21:1
Smith's Bible Dictionary; Nelson's Electronic Bible

There is no unambiguous reference to the Devil in the Torah, the Prophets, or the Writings.
Carus P. History of the Devil and the Idea of Evil

David Joris (c. 1501–1556, Against this is his rationalist approach to the topic of the devil and supernatural evil. David Joris anticipated the views of Thomas Hobbes, John Epps and Dr. John Thomas in interpreting the devil as an allegory

 

[Imagican]

Imagican, please have a look at G B Caird on Wikipedia! He was on the translation team of the Revised English Bible (REB). These same things could be said about him:

No, only PARTIALLY said of him.

I pointed out that those that were in existence five hundred years ago were most likely MORE 'Spiritual' and the language of Greek LESS 'modernized' than those of TODAY. I believe that there is the potential for MUCH difference.

It is CLEAR from my mere 50 years upon this planet that languages have CHANGED in MY lifetime. Not only English, but MOST languages EVOLVE over time. Words used five hundred years ago and the MANNER in which they were used have changed IMMENSELY.

This plainly offers that those that were fluent in Greek five hundred years ago would have had a MUCH CLOSER understanding of the language used two thousand years ago than those that learn the language TODAY.

When we read the Bible, the Bible itself indicates that each successive generation has fallen further and further AWAY from the TRUTH. While 'religion' or 'religions' themselves may increase, the TRUTH will eventually fade away ALMOST completely. There will always remain a 'remnant', the use of the word itself is indicative of a VERY SMALL PORTION. If, in the end, the very ELECT of God have the potential to be 'led astray', then it is CLEAR that men have fallen BACKWARDS in their understanding and ability to FOLLOW in truth, rather than having made ADVANCEMENTS.

With these things in mind, even FIVE HUNDRED YEARS is enough time, (a quarter of the time SINCE Christ), for men to have changed IMMENSELY. Both 'Spiritually' and linguistically.

So you can SAY that it can be offered that this man or the team he worked on was the SAME as the group that translated the King James Version, it is apparent that they could NOT BE 'the same'. For the intervening years could have made a MASSIVE difference 'Spiritually and linguistically', and I believe that they HAVE.

These are MY opinions, of course, but based on what we have been offered in the Bible PLUS what I have witnessed myself. Men are NOT 'as Spiritual' as they once were. And it's gotten and is getting WORSE instead of better.

I'll close with this as evidence of what I have proposed:

Matthew 7:14
Because strait is thegate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

2 Timothy 3:13
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

He man. Let us presume you are correct. That what is offered in John is NOT a 'recap' of past events, but speaking of things to come.

NOW explain to us who or what the DRAGON is that is going to do battle in heaven? (I am a firm believer that the words offered are in reference to a time BEFORE mankind was even created. But if YOU believe it is an event that has YET to take place, tell us what YOU believe so far as 'the ENEMYS' identity). And while you are at it, explain the MEANING behind the use of the words: 'that old serpent'. For the Bible uses a NUMBER of names directed at the SAME ENTITY. So just explain the 'old serpent' part. WHO or WHAT is 'that old serpent'?

And allow me to point out that when you offer such statements as this:

While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.

it becomes pretty clear that YOU do NOT believe that the Bible is the INSPIRED Word of God but merely the ramblings of men and their incoherent ideas that have NO basis in TRUTH.

And that leads to this conclusion: You and I cannot discuss such issues due to the fact that YOU don't even agree that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. It would be like trying to discuss cultural perspectives of two different people from two completely different perspectives. IMPOSSIBLE to come to any sort of agreement for the simple fact that the two sides are based on two completely DIFFERENT foundations.

My perspective is that the Bible was directly inspired BY GOD. Your perspective is that we RECREATE the Bible to FIT certain ideas that some refuse to accept. And it is MY belief that I can offer actual EVIDENCE of what I believe. Yet I haven't seen the first SPECK of evidence in what YOU propose other than YOUR words and those of men you have quoted.

I KNOW what has been revealed to ME through the Bible and assistance of the Holy Spirit. I do NOT KNOW the first thing about what you offer. And what YOU offer is utterly contrary to what has been REVEALED to me. And quoting other men in an attempt to discredit the Bible doesn't alter the truth in any manner except in the minds and hearts of those that choose such a path.

So you admit that YOU believe that I too have been 'duped'. And I offer that it is MY belief that YOU have been 'duped'. So once again, I believe that my original premiss has MERIT. What if we have ALL been duped into a false sense of truth and an inordinate worship of 'false gods' instead of the ONE true God.

You would indicate that it is YOUR belief that ALL who accept what is offered in the Bible have been duped.

I offer that those that DO NOT accept and believe what is offered in the Bible AS IT IS OFFERED have been DUPED.

Either way, doesn't leave much room for the purist. Not much space for ANYONE 'not being duped' now does it?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Oh, and one more thing:

Resist the devil and he will flee. Can't we assume that the the opposite is JUST as true? That if we DO NOT resist the devil he will NOT flee.

he man, WHO or WHAT is the devil that we are to resist?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Anto9us]

That ENGLISH has changed a lot over 500 years is certainly true -- and we today must certainly be aware that some words in the KJV do not mean today what they did in 1611.

Koine Greek is a different matter -- no one SPEAKS Koine Greek anymore -- modern Greek is a different language. The Koine Greek, like LATIN, is a DEAD LANGUAGE and doesn't change anymore.

 

[GivingMyAll4Him]

That ENGLISH has changed a lot over 500 years is certainly true -- and we today must certainly be aware that some words in the KJV do not mean today what they did in 1611.

Koine Greek is a different matter -- no one SPEAKS Koine Greek anymore -- modern Greek is a different language. The Koine Greek, like LATIN, is a DEAD LANGUAGE and doesn't change anymore.

Whether or not language is actively evolving, our interpretation and understanding of even a "dead language" continues to change, albeit at a different rate. So it is not as if Koine Greek is at a frozen, pure state. And even if it changed no longer, we'd have to sift through the ways it did change when it was being actively used.

That said, I have no idea who you were responding to or the point you were making. I skipped to the end of the conversation, saw that, and thought "yeah, but there's more to the story..."

 

[GivingMyAll4Him]

Responding to the first post:

You have not been 'duped.' You've discovered that everyone has baggage. Everyone has different experiences. Everyone experiences "fallenness" and therefore salvation from their fallenness in different ways. Everyone, in all their differences, and coming out of vastly different Christian traditions, and with wildly different Christian cultural influences, understands scripture differently.

And God's scripture is big enough to speak to us in spite of our inability to perfectly interpret.

The biggest question, in my mind, is "is our faith big enough to confess that we do not have all the answers, yet confident enough to trust in the gift of Christ?"

And my follow up question is "Are you following Christ closely enough that you're able to act like him even when you disagree with people?" Because after 10 years on CF, I can tell you that people don't often disagree nicely. People are rude. People are ugly to one another. And this has the ability to be one of the most hostile places I've ever seen. And that's not only embarrassing, but quite a shame.

I look back over 10 years of my own posts (about 10-15 per year - I'm not a big poster) and I see ugly comments in my earlier years, and what I hope are signs of growth in later years. So I certainly allow room for people to just "not be there yet." I've got a long way to go to perfection, too.

 

[Imagican]

That ENGLISH has changed a lot over 500 years is certainly true -- and we today must certainly be aware that some words in the KJV do not mean today what they did in 1611.

Koine Greek is a different matter -- no one SPEAKS Koine Greek anymore -- modern Greek is a different language. The Koine Greek, like LATIN, is a DEAD LANGUAGE and doesn't change anymore.

But WHEN did it DIE and how much CHANGE had taken place BEFORE it died?

In other words, if I were to LEARN this 'Koine Greek', would it be the SAME as that understood two thousand years ago? Or would it be what changed over hundreds or thousands of years to become what it is TODAY?

Did the scholars that translated the KJV understand a version of Greek like that spoken or written at the TIME of Christ, or was their version different?

And all of this is MOOT if we determine that the scholars that translated the KJV were INSPIRED by God through the Holy Spirit to offer as CLOSE a translation as HUMANLY possible. That is MY belief.

So "I" do NOT need to learn GREEK to translate the Bible MYSELF. It has already been accomplished FOR me through divine inspiration.

To believe otherwise is to believe that God has been UNABLE to preserve His Word in whichever language HE CHOOSES.

King James commissioned the Bible to be written AS CLOSE as it could be to the documents used in it's translation. It can be argued that these documents were not accurate as to the originals. But the TRUTH is, there ARE NO originals. So at one point a decision must be made. Can we place our faith in the Bible as offered in English? Can we TRUST that the scholars that translated it used the PROPER documents and were accurate in their translations?

I believe that the answer is YES. A monumental event took place where a group of men DID translate it from documents CLOSE ENOUGH to the originals to offer the BEGINNING of understanding according to GOD'S WORD.

Why do I believe this? For the changes that have taken place in MY life that I would or could have been UNABLE to accomplish ON MY OWN. Divine intervention, you might say, in a manner that I CANNOT deny. Sometimes I WISH I could, but it is NO LONGER POSSIBLE for me to even QUESTION the validity of the changes that have taken place in my life BEYOND my ability to MAKE those changes.

And the more time that passes, the MORE it is revealed that the Bible IS the Word of God. I have EXPERIENCED the presence of God in my life THROUGH His Word. The understanding present is NOT MY OWN. It is simply TOO monumental to be RANDOM. It is TOO PURE to be anything but the REAL DEAL. The message is CLEAR and it is TOO CLEAR that it is opposed to all that is EVIL. THE message is LOVE. Not the carnal love of this world. But TRUE love which consists of a DESIRE to HELP others DO WELL regardless of any personal gain for oneself. It is a matter of sacrificing one's OWN desires in order to share with others without expecting ANYTHING in return other than the knowledge and understanding that it was RIGHTEOUS. it is the RIGHT thing to DO. It is LIGHT instead of darkness. Placing OTHERS BEFORE ourselves in the hopes of helping them no matter what it is that they NEED. Serving in TRUTH and SPIRIT.

That is THE message that has been delivered to ME through The Holy Bible and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. And I KNOW it is not MY understanding that has been DELIVERED. For it is utterly CONTRARY to the 'spirit' I followed BEFORE being introduced to God's Word. Utterly CONTRARY to 'MY' understanding that existed before the TRUTH was revealed through God's Word: The Holy Bible.

Can I convince YOU or anyone else of this FACT? Irrelevant. I don't NEED to. If God chooses for such truth to be revealed, that is HIS doing, not my own. It is MY duty to offer witness and testimony and the proper example. Nothing MORE can I DO to convince ANYONE of ANYTHING. And I don't even TRY. Other than to insist that The Holy Bible IS the Word of God, it is NOT my duty to attract followers to ME. I am simply here to direct them to the TRUTH. Up to them and God whether THEY choose to follow the direction pointed.

But: "BE NOT FOLLOWERS of ME". For I am CHIEF among sinners. Yet that doesn't STOP me from understanding the TRUTH. It simply offers CONVICTION that: "I AM indeed, CHIEF among SINNERS". And this just goes to show where sin exist in abundance so too does grace exist in even MORE abundance. It is simply a matter of ACCEPTANCE.

But if I were to allow Satan his way, he would influence me to believe that I am just TOO MUCH of a sinner to be forgiven. NOT worthy and therefore LOST without redemption.

Fortunately I worship a God that is MORE than capable of leading me to forgiveness. Not only forgiveness for ME, but the ability to forgive others as well. Never forget: Forgiveness is one of the FIRST steps in coming to an understanding and practicing of TRUE LOVE.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Proud Parrot]

I can't recall the scripture but Jesus made reference to sacred writings.

What if when Christ told us the kingdom of God is within, that what he was promising is that each of us would be imbued with the knowledge of that truth that would bolster us, light us, from the inside of our-self.

And the consensus about God, Jesus, truth, that we seem to all be trying to arrive at in those forum discussions you mention, are impossible because of that. Because the holy spirit speaks a language the individual who hears Jesus' voice understands.

And this is why the fracture into sects and man made churches occurs. Because failing to realize we the faithful are the church upon which Christ build his truth, we think yet again to manifest what he came to destroy. Temples built to the ego of man that hopes to confine and lay exclusive claim to the eternity that is truth in God.