Predestination? Doesn't God want all to be saved?

[Lion King]

I really see no other way to interpret what is in the Scripture I posted. I think God makes some people for common use and others for noble purposes. Romans 9.



I think He gives a blanket warning out to everyone...the elect accept the rebuking and the damned do not.

But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. Exodus 7:3-4

VS

But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said. Exodus 8:15


Who hardened Pharaoh's heart? Was it God or Pharaoh himself?

 

[98cwitr]

But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said. Exodus 8:15

VS

But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. Exodus 7:3-4


Who hardened Pharaoh's heart? Was it God or Pharaoh himself?

Both

 

[Lion King]

Both

Can you explain briefly how this is possible?

 

[Radagast]

Indeed. The great Catholic theologian and Doctor of the Church, St Thomas Aquinas answers three possible objections to predestination:

And three more:

Summa Theologica, Part I, Question 23 (Predestination), Article 5: Whether the foreknowledge of merits is the cause of predestination?

Objection 1. It seems that foreknowledge of merits is the cause of predestination. For the Apostle says (Romans 8:29): "Whom He foreknew, He also predestined." Again a gloss of Ambrose on Romans 9:15: "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy" says: "I will give mercy to him who, I foresee, will turn to Me with his whole heart." Therefore it seems the foreknowledge of merits is the cause of predestination.

Objection 2. Further, Divine predestination includes the divine will, which by no means can be irrational; since predestination is "the purpose to have mercy," as Augustine says (De Praed. Sanct. ii, 17). But there can be no other reason for predestination than the foreknowledge of merits. Therefore it must be the cause of reason of predestination.

Objection 3. Further, "There is no injustice in God" (Romans 9:14). Now it would seem unjust that unequal things be given to equals. But all men are equal as regards both nature and original sin; and inequality in them arises from the merits or demerits of their actions. Therefore God does not prepare unequal things for men by predestinating and reprobating, unless through the foreknowledge of their merits and demerits.

On the contrary, The Apostle says (Titus 3:5): "Not by works of justice which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us." But as He saved us, so He predestined that we should be saved. Therefore, foreknowledge of merits is not the cause or reason of predestination.

I answer that, Since predestination includes will, as was said above (Article 4), the reason of predestination must be sought for in the same way as was the reason of the will of God. Now it was shown above (Question 19, Article 5), that we cannot assign any cause of the divine will on the part of the act of willing; but a reason can be found on the part of the things willed; inasmuch as God wills one thing on account of something else. Wherefore nobody has been so insane as to say that merit is the cause of divine predestination as regards the act of the predestinator. But this is the question, whether, as regards the effect, predestination has any cause; or what comes to the same thing, whether God pre-ordained that He would give the effect of predestination to anyone on account of any merits.

Accordingly there were some who held that the effect of predestination was pre-ordained for some on account of pre-existing merits in a former life. This was the opinion of Origen, who thought that the souls of men were created in the beginning, and according to the diversity of their works different states were assigned to them in this world when united with the body. The Apostle, however, rebuts this opinion where he says (Romans 9:11-12): "For when they were not yet born, nor had done any good or evil . . . not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said of her: The elder shall serve the younger."

Others said that pre-existing merits in this life are the reason and cause of the effect of predestination. For the Pelagians taught that the beginning of doing well came from us; and the consummation from God: so that it came about that the effect of predestination was granted to one, and not to another, because the one made a beginning by preparing, whereas the other did not. But against this we have the saying of the Apostle (2 Corinthians 3:5), that "we are not sufficient to think anything of ourselves as of ourselves." Now no principle of action can be imagined previous to the act of thinking. Wherefore it cannot be said that anything begun in us can be the reason of the effect of predestination.

And so others said that merits following the effect of predestination are the reason of predestination; giving us to understand that God gives grace to a person, and pre-ordains that He will give it, because He knows beforehand that He will make good use of that grace, as if a king were to give a horse to a soldier because he knows he will make good use of it. But these seem to have drawn a distinction between that which flows from grace, and that which flows from free will, as if the same thing cannot come from both. It is, however, manifest that what is of grace is the effect of predestination; and this cannot be considered as the reason of predestination, since it is contained in the notion of predestination. Therefore, if anything else in us be the reason of predestination, it will outside the effect of predestination. Now there is no distinction between what flows from free will, and what is of predestination; as there is not distinction between what flows from a secondary cause and from a first cause. For the providence of God produces effects through the operation of secondary causes, as was above shown (22, 3). Wherefore, that which flows from free-will is also of predestination. We must say, therefore, that the effect of predestination may be considered in a twofold light--in one way, in particular; and thus there is no reason why one effect of predestination should not be the reason or cause of another; a subsequent effect being the reason of a previous effect, as its final cause; and the previous effect being the reason of the subsequent as its meritorious cause, which is reduced to the disposition of the matter. Thus we might say that God pre-ordained to give glory on account of merit, and that He pre-ordained to give grace to merit glory. In another way, the effect of predestination may be considered in general. Thus, it is impossible that the whole of the effect of predestination in general should have any cause as coming from us; because whatsoever is in man disposing him towards salvation, is all included under the effect of predestination; even the preparation for grace. For neither does this happen otherwise than by divine help, according to the prophet Jeremias (Lamentations 5:21): "convert us, O Lord, to Thee, and we shall be converted." Yet predestination has in this way, in regard to its effect, the goodness of God for its reason; towards which the whole effect of predestination is directed as to an end; and from which it proceeds, as from its first moving principle.

Reply to Objection 1. The use of grace foreknown by God is not the cause of conferring grace, except after the manner of a final cause; as was explained above.

Reply to Objection 2. Predestination has its foundation in the goodness of God as regards its effects in general. Considered in its particular effects, however, one effect is the reason of another; as already stated.

Reply to Objection 3. The reason for the predestination of some, and reprobation of others, must be sought for in the goodness of God. Thus He is said to have made all things through His goodness, so that the divine goodness might be represented in things. Now it is necessary that God's goodness, which in itself is one and undivided, should be manifested in many ways in His creation; because creatures in themselves cannot attain to the simplicity of God. Thus it is that for the completion of the universe there are required different grades of being; some of which hold a high and some a low place in the universe. That this multiformity of grades may be preserved in things, God allows some evils, lest many good things should never happen, as was said above (Question 22, Article 2). Let us then consider the whole of the human race, as we consider the whole universe. God wills to manifest His goodness in men; in respect to those whom He predestines, by means of His mercy, as sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of His justice, in punishing them. This is the reason why God elects some and rejects others. To this the Apostle refers, saying (Romans 9:22-23): "What if God, willing to show His wrath [that is, the vengeance of His justice], and to make His power known, endured [that is, permitted] with much patience vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction; that He might show the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He hath prepared unto glory" and (2 Timothy 2:20): "But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver; but also of wood and of earth; and some, indeed, unto honor, but some unto dishonor." Yet why He chooses some for glory, and reprobates others, has no reason, except the divine will. Whence Augustine says (Tract. xxvi. in Joan.): "Why He draws one, and another He draws not, seek not to judge, if thou dost not wish to err." Thus too, in the things of nature, a reason can be assigned, since primary matter is altogether uniform, why one part of it was fashioned by God from the beginning under the form of fire, another under the form of earth, that there might be a diversity of species in things of nature. Yet why this particular part of matter is under this particular form, and that under another, depends upon the simple will of God; as from the simple will of the artificer it depends that this stone is in part of the wall, and that in another; although the plan requires that some stones should be in this place, and some in that place. Neither on this account can there be said to be injustice in God, if He prepares unequal lots for not unequal things. This would be altogether contrary to the notion of justice, if the effect of predestination were granted as a debt, and not gratuitously. In things which are given gratuitously, a person can give more or less, just as he pleases (provided he deprives nobody of his due), without any infringement of justice. This is what the master of the house said: "Take what is thine, and go thy way. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will?" (Matthew 20:14-15).[/QUOTE]

 

[Lion King]

God does not love all men. If He did Hell would not exist....there would be zero requirements, including faith, for salvation.

Well, that statement is true in a sense. However, this does not change the fact that the LORD sent His only Son to die for all men.

 

[Radagast]

Can you explain briefly how this is possible?

One of the more difficult theological issues -- one that has been debated for centuries -- and you want it explained briefly?

 

[Lion King]

One of the more difficult theological issues -- one that has been debated for centuries -- and you want it explained briefly?

Yes, I hate wall of texts.

 

[Radagast]

However, this does not change the fact that the LORD sent His only Son to die for all men.

Fact?

You don't support the doctrine of Limited Atonement, obviously. Which leaves two other options: Universalism (all men are saved); or the idea that God tried to save all men but failed.

 

[Radagast]

Yes, I hate wall of texts.

I'll post the 3-line explanation right after I post my two-line explanation of quantum theory and my one-line explanation of relativity.

 

[Lion King]

Fact?

You don't support the doctrine of Limited Atonement, obviously. Which leaves two other options: Universalism (all men are saved); or the idea that God tried to save all men but failed.

Nope. I simply understand that the Scriptures were written from different point of views.

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2

VS

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd gives his life for the sheep. John 10:11


Both above statements are correct. I don't pit one against the other like you do...

 

[98cwitr]

Can you explain briefly how this is possible?

Sure. In Exodus 4 and 7, God foretells that He will harden Pharaoh's heart. How does God harden a heart though and what happens to a person when that occurs? The heart is the nature of a man, it provides him ability or inability to do something. By hardening Pharaoh's heart, the man then had the ability to continue hardening his own heart further. Under the persecution of the plagues lies about letting the Israelites leave, and again his heart is hardened as God ensures that His Will is carried out. This continues through the rest of Exodus (Im sure you are quite familiar with the story).

See what Isaiah asks here:

Isaiah 63:17 Why, Lord, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes that are your inheritance.

Now, is Isaiah in the wrong about understanding God? And if so, why trust what he says in the rest of the book at all?

 

[fhansen]

Indeed. The great Catholic theologian and Doctor of the Church, St Thomas Aquinas answers three possible objections to predestination:

I answer that, God does reprobate some.

And here Aquinas disagrees with his Church.

 

[98cwitr]

God not only hardens hearts, but through His Mercy and Grace softens them too! There is a lot of Hope in this Truth!

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. 30 I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. 32 I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign Lord. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, people of Israel!

 

[bling]

Why then does God create people He knows will never believe?

The answer is simple if you understand the relativity of time and God being outside of time.

The way God from the beginning of our time knows all our free will choices is the fact that the God of our distant future is the same God at the beginning of our time, so God of the human distant future knows historically all free will human decisions and that information is given back (“back” in our time frame) to Himself at the beginning of time.

The “historic” knowledge God of all man’s free will choices cannot be changed any more than you can change history.

As soon as God decides to create a human the history of that human is known by God even though that human has not been created yet in the human time frame he already existed as far as God is concerned.

Here is the “dilemma”, if God decides to never/ever make a particular human; God also does not know what that particular human would do, since it will never exist. God can know all the possibilities that human could do, but the actual free will choices for that particular human are not knowable. There is really nothing to know about a trillion never to be made humans.

 

[deepthink]

I fully admit that the Calvinist position for sovereign election is very powerful and, the case for free will is also very powerful.
Realizing that neither side has an air tight case I decided to embrace the free will advocacy position by using the character test. The character test declares that we can never believe that God has done or is doing anything that would require God to act contrary to His character. Everyone agrees that God is Good,Loving,and just. If then what we are being asked to believe requires that God is violating any of of his character traits than we know we shouldn't believe it.
Therefor lets pretend that I am one of the non elect. God created me a dishonorable vessel. My destiny is to spend an eternity in Hell where I will wail and gnash my teeth in endless torment. Can anybody tell me something good about me being created a dishonorable vessel? Can anyone tell me how God creating me a fit vessel for destruction is an me for behaving dishonorably?
Unless some one can establish that God did not act outside of His characeter in making me a dishonorable vessel than He did no such thing.In fact sing Jesus said that only those that do God's will will into heaven and I was doing God's will when I sin then God has to let me into heaven for it was his will that I should sin if he made me a fit vessel for destruction.
Was it not.Calvinist stand the gospel on its head.Therefor I reject it.
Deep Thinkk

 

[Lion King]

Sure. In Exodus 4 and 7, God foretells that He will harden Pharaoh's heart. How does God harden a heart though and what happens to a person when that occurs? The heart is the nature of a man, it provides him ability or inability to do something. By hardening Pharaoh's heart, the man then had the ability to continue hardening his own heart further. Under the persecution of the plagues lies about letting the Israelites leave, and again his heart is hardened as God ensures that His Will is carried out. This continues through the rest of Exodus (Im sure you are quite familiar with the story).

See what Isaiah asks here:

Isaiah 63:17 Why, Lord, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes that are your inheritance.

Now, is Isaiah in the wrong about understanding God? And if so, why trust what he says in the rest of the book at all?

Personally, I think when God hardens someone's heart, He is merely removing His protective hand from that said person. In this case, God withdrew His Spirit from the Pharaoh thus allowing evil spirits to further influence Pharaoh's already cold heart.

I think Romans 1:24-32 speaks more on this.

 

[James Is Back]

From what I gather about Pharaoh is the reason that God harden his heart is because God knew beforehand that Pharaoh was going to have a black heart and do evil anyway he just hasten the hardening if you will.

That's what I take from it. Might be wrong though.

 

[James Is Back]

I fully admit that the Calvinist position for sovereign election is very powerful and, the case for free will is also very powerful.
Realizing that neither side has an air tight case I decided to embrace the free will advocacy position by using the character test. The character test declares that we can never believe that God has done or is doing anything that would require God to act contrary to His character. Everyone agrees that God is Good,Loving,and just. If then what we are being asked to believe requires that God is violating any of of his character traits than we know we shouldn't believe it.
Therefor lets pretend that I am one of the non elect. God created me a dishonorable vessel. My destiny is to spend an eternity in Hell where I will wail and gnash my teeth in endless torment. Can anybody tell me something good about me being created a dishonorable vessel? Can anyone tell me how God creating me a fit vessel for destruction is an me for behaving dishonorably?
Unless some one can establish that God did not act outside of His characeter in making me a dishonorable vessel than He did no such thing.In fact sing Jesus said that only those that do God's will will into heaven and I was doing God's will when I sin then God has to let me into heaven for it was his will that I should sin if he made me a fit vessel for destruction.
Was it not.Calvinist stand the gospel on its head.Therefor I reject it.
Deep Thinkk

That's my line of thinking too. But as someone said those who go to hell chose to go to hell for rejection of salvation and their sins that they not ask for forgivness and those who go to heaven go to heaven because they accepted salvation and become spiritually alive in Christ.

 

[fhansen]

I fully admit that the Calvinist position for sovereign election is very powerful and, the case for free will is also very powerful.
Realizing that neither side has an air tight case I decided to embrace the free will advocacy position by using the character test. The character test declares that we can never believe that God has done or is doing anything that would require God to act contrary to His character. Everyone agrees that God is Good,Loving,and just. If then what we are being asked to believe requires that God is violating any of of his character traits than we know we shouldn't believe it.
Therefor lets pretend that I am one of the non elect. God created me a dishonorable vessel. My destiny is to spend an eternity in Hell where I will wail and gnash my teeth in endless torment. Can anybody tell me something good about me being created a dishonorable vessel? Can anyone tell me how God creating me a fit vessel for destruction is an me for behaving dishonorably?
Unless some one can establish that God did not act outside of His characeter in making me a dishonorable vessel than He did no such thing.In fact sing Jesus said that only those that do God's will will into heaven and I was doing God's will when I sin then God has to let me into heaven for it was his will that I should sin if he made me a fit vessel for destruction.
Was it not.Calvinist stand the gospel on its head.Therefor I reject it.
Deep Thinkk

I agree. And if God is responsible for sin- for every evil committed by man-then why would we want to be in heaven with Him? How could we trust that He's telling the truth about heaven to begin with if He's effectively responsible for every lie in the universe? God allows our wills to be done, even if they oppose His will, without ultimately causing us to will wrongly. When God commanded Adam not to eat of the fruit, He certainly didn't want Adam to eat of the fruit. And this, in fact, is why we pray that His will be done on earth as it is in heaven-because of the very real and obvious possibility of it not being done.

 

[Albion]

I fully admit that the Calvinist position for sovereign election is very powerful and, the case for free will is also very powerful.
Realizing that neither side has an air tight case I decided to embrace the free will advocacy position by using the character test. The character test declares that we can never believe that God has done or is doing anything that would require God to act contrary to His character. Everyone agrees that God is Good,Loving,and just. If then what we are being asked to believe requires that God is violating any of of his character traits than we know we shouldn't believe it.
Therefor lets pretend that I am one of the non elect. God created me a dishonorable vessel. My destiny is to spend an eternity in Hell where I will wail and gnash my teeth in endless torment. Can anybody tell me something good about me being created a dishonorable vessel? Can anyone tell me how God creating me a fit vessel for destruction is an me for behaving dishonorably?
Unless some one can establish that God did not act outside of His characeter in making me a dishonorable vessel than He did no such thing.In fact sing Jesus said that only those that do God's will will into heaven and I was doing God's will when I sin then God has to let me into heaven for it was his will that I should sin if he made me a fit vessel for destruction.
Was it not.Calvinist stand the gospel on its head.Therefor I reject it.
Deep Thinkk

It seems to me that you should be consistent and embrace Universalism, then, because if ANYONE winds up in hell, your reasoning still applies.

But then, if there isn't anyone who ends up in hell we're left to explain why the Bible teaches that some of us at least will be found wanting on Judgment Day, be outcast from him, be told to depart, or any of the rest of the Bible's many references to some humans failing to be saved.

.