Is YAHWEH andALLAH the same person?

[sculleywr]

That's what the Mormons say, don't they? For one thing I see it a sin trying to rival God. Yes, Islam also talks about reunion with God - this is important in Sufism.

Not rivaling God. God forbid. No.

Rather, salvation for the Christian is beyond reunion with God. It is to become so like Him that what I think is what He would think in my situation, what I do is what He would do in my situation.

The problem with these verses is that they are not timeless. God revealed it at one point in time. So you can't say that no one was saved before Christ because no knew the name. Or that people who haven't heard of Christ wouldn't be saved. I think that's what's meant by Messiah - he is Christ and the King of Jews. The Jews and his people cannot be saved if they know him and reject him. The same with the people of any Messenger of God.

Jesus would return to complete his mission.

Jesus completed His mission, which was to defeat death and to pave a path out of the grave for mankind. When He returns, it will not be to complete His mission. It will be to reunite with His Bride, the Church.

No I don't think that the Holy Spirit and Jesus, the word of God, should be considered God, even if they are of the same essence.

If they are not God, then they are of a different essence.

To have the essence of something is to be that something. Every branch of a tree shares the essence of the tree, while being unique from the trunk, or the fruit. God is one Tree, with three persons. The Father is the Trunk, the Son the branches, and the Spirit the fruit. All are the Tree. The Tree is one, but three.

Your body is one, but also many, and every cell shares in that essence of you. Every cell is completely you. But you are not complete without all your parts. Likewise, the Father alone is not God apart from the Son and the Spirit, for the Father cannot be the Father without the Son. And the Father cannot be without the Spirit. Further, the Son cannot be the Son without the Father, nor be active apart from the Spirit. Finally, the Spirit cannot act without the Father, nor will He be sent without the Son.

just like a tree. Remove the branches, and neither the fruit, nor the trunk can continue. When you remove one, you lose the whole.

 

[WordsOfRepentance]

Not rivaling God. God forbid. No.

Rather, salvation for the Christian is beyond reunion with God. It is to become so like Him that what I think is what He would think in my situation, what I do is what He would do in my situation.

So you mean to submit your will to God. To align you will with that of the Will of God. To do his will on earth.

Well that is what is meant by "Islam". It means submission to God. To do His will.

Jesus completed His mission, which was to defeat death and to pave a path out of the grave for mankind. When He returns, it will not be to complete His mission. It will be to reunite with His Bride, the Church.

Yes to be reunite the Churches into one and to be the head of that Church. We believe in a Muslim Messiah (Mahdi) uniting the Muslims and the Jewish Messiah (Christ) uniting all the Christians and Jews and the rest of the peoples. In a sense I think its completing his mission. No Jew could deny him the authority of being their king and Messiah. Islam believes that the Jews are excused from recognizing their Messiah because Christianity has distorted his image.

To have the essence of something is to be that something. Every branch of a tree shares the essence of the tree, while being unique from the trunk, or the fruit. God is one Tree, with three persons. The Father is the Trunk, the Son the branches, and the Spirit the fruit. All are the Tree. The Tree is one, but three.

Your body is one, but also many, and every cell shares in that essence of you. Every cell is completely you. But you are not complete without all your parts. Likewise, the Father alone is not God apart from the Son and the Spirit, for the Father cannot be the Father without the Son. And the Father cannot be without the Spirit. Further, the Son cannot be the Son without the Father, nor be active apart from the Spirit. Finally, the Spirit cannot act without the Father, nor will He be sent without the Son.

just like a tree. Remove the branches, and neither the fruit, nor the trunk can continue. When you remove one, you lose the whole.

That's a good analogy but the Father is supposed to be all- powerful. If He is then I can't see why he should share his essence and godhood. No. God forbid! Its unacceptable

 

[Targaryen]

So you mean to submit your will to God. To align you will with that of the Will of God. To do his will on earth.

Well that is what is meant by "Islam". It means submission to God. To do His will.



Yes to be reunite the Churches into one and to be the head of that Church. We believe in a Muslim Messiah (Mahdi) uniting the Muslims and the Jewish Messiah (Christ) uniting all the Christians and Jews and the rest of the peoples. In a sense I think its completing his mission. No Jew could deny him the authority of being their king and Messiah. Islam believes that the Jews are excused from recognizing their Messiah because Christianity has distorted his image.




That's a good analogy but the Father is supposed to be all- powerful. If He is then I can't see why he should share his essence and godhood. No. God forbid! Its unacceptable

The christian concept of the Trinity is not God sharing his essence, it's God's taking on humanity, in the sense of Christ and then having a presence in our daily affairs that is his will directing or moving us in the Holy Spirit.

 

[sculleywr]

The christian concept of the Trinity is not God sharing his essence, it's God's taking on humanity, in the sense of Christ and then having a presence in our daily affairs that is his will directing or moving us in the Holy Spirit.

That leads to the heresy of Patripassianism. The teaching that it was the Father Who died on the cross. The Trinity is three person, one essence.

 

[Targaryen]

That leads to the heresy of Patripassianism. The teaching that it was the Father Who died on the cross. The Trinity is three person, one essence.

Can we simplify it for a non-christian to understand before we get into the broader implications?

 

[sculleywr]

So you mean to submit your will to God. To align you will with that of the Will of God. To do his will on earth.

Well that is what is meant by "Islam". It means submission to God. To do His will.

That's all there is to Islam. That's where it ends. We do his will. Christians go the next step further. The end goal of Christians is that our will BECOMES the will of God.

Yes to be reunite the Churches into one and to be the head of that Church. We believe in a Muslim Messiah (Mahdi) uniting the Muslims and the Jewish Messiah (Christ) uniting all the Christians and Jews and the rest of the peoples. In a sense I think its completing his mission. No Jew could deny him the authority of being their king and Messiah. Islam believes that the Jews are excused from recognizing their Messiah because Christianity has distorted his image.

Except that they have no evidence beyond what was written 800 years later. In fact, then Christ's own prophecy failed pretty much the moment He left. He said that the Church He established would be established in the Apostles, and would never fail. But if Islam is right about Christians perverting Christ, then Islam and Christianity is wrong about Christ being the Messiah. If Christ's church failed, One prophecy failed. And the scale by which a prophet's authority is based requires that not a single of His prophecies fail. Therefore, if Christianity failed, then we should all of us convert to Judaism.

That's a good analogy but the Father is supposed to be all- powerful. If He is then I can't see why he should share his essence and godhood. No. God forbid! Its unacceptable

Why should He? Well, to save us, of course. The only thing that can save us is replacing the sinful nature with a divine nature. But to do that, He must bring the human nature in contact with the divine, which was done in Christ, where ALL of the divine nature existed with all of the nature with which man was created as Adam before the first sin.

So why SHOULD NOT God share His essence? Outside of the Q'uran, a book penned hundreds of years after Christ, there is no reason that God shouldn't share His essence. In fact, there is evidence in His first name: Elohim, which is plural. Elohim says "let US make man in OUR image". Who was He speaking to? the angels? No. They never created anything. This places at least one being as pre-existing the Creation.

In fact, He shared a portion of His essence with us, as we are His children. The divine image resides in all of mankind. You, me, the prostitute on the corner.

 

[sculleywr]

Can we simplify it for a non-christian to understand before we get into the broader implications?

The christian concept of the Trinity is not God sharing his essence, it's God's taking on humanity, in the sense of Christ and then having a presence in our daily affairs that is his will directing or moving us in the Holy Spirit.

When you say God takes on humanity and not God sharing His essence, you are saying that the Father became Christ. Therefore, you are implying that it was the Father Who became Christ, then was killed for us.

It's a natural result of the heresy of Modalism, which teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are modes of God, and not persons in the Godhead.


The Orthodox Trinity, overly simplified, is this:

The Father, Who has the essence of God (the Theotis), Created all things.

The Son, Who has the essence of God, became man.

The Holy Spirit, Who has the essence of God, directs and guides His people, mainly through the Church, although the Church does not limit His work to within its walls (at least, Orthodox dogma doesn't. We only say where we know He is. It is above our paygrade to say where He isn't).

Three persons, different in energies (actions), but identical in essence.

 

[Targaryen]

Again....simplfying a concept for a non-christian to understand the root, is different then talking in heterodoxy being held as true.

It's kinda amazing when you need to go into harder Christian theology rather then engage in debate that seeks to give a baser understanding to others that do not have that concept taught in their own theological backgrounds.

and the person in question is a 17 year old....starting with a barer, but less then ideal point to THEN expand on kinda helps in dialogue.

But you tend to want to shut down dialogue I've noticed.

 

[Lion King]

So why SHOULD NOT God share His essence? Outside of the Q'uran, a book penned hundreds of years after Christ, there is no reason that God shouldn't share His essence. In fact, there is evidence in His first name: Elohim, which is plural. Elohim says "let US make man in OUR image". Who was He speaking to? the angels? No. They never created anything. This places at least one being as pre-existing the Creation.

In fact, He shared a portion of His essence with us, as we are His children. The divine image resides in all of mankind. You, me, the prostitute on the corner.

1. The Hebrew word "Elohim" is not a name but a title. It means "God" in English.

2. Secondly, the word "Elohim" can either be singular or plural depending on how it's used. When used with singular verbs (god) in the Scriptures, it is usually referring the One God of Abraham, or in some cases, pagan deities and humans. When used with plural verbs (gods), it is usually referring to angels (Psalm 8:5), foreign deities and humans.

 

[WordsOfRepentance]

That's all there is to Islam. That's where it ends. We do his will. Christians go the next step further. The end goal of Christians is that our will BECOMES the will of God.



Except that they have no evidence beyond what was written 800 years later. In fact, then Christ's own prophecy failed pretty much the moment He left. He said that the Church He established would be established in the Apostles, and would never fail. But if Islam is right about Christians perverting Christ, then Islam and Christianity is wrong about Christ being the Messiah. If Christ's church failed, One prophecy failed. And the scale by which a prophet's authority is based requires that not a single of His prophecies fail. Therefore, if Christianity failed, then we should all of us convert to Judaism.



Why should He? Well, to save us, of course. The only thing that can save us is replacing the sinful nature with a divine nature. But to do that, He must bring the human nature in contact with the divine, which was done in Christ, where ALL of the divine nature existed with all of the nature with which man was created as Adam before the first sin.

So why SHOULD NOT God share His essence? Outside of the Q'uran, a book penned hundreds of years after Christ, there is no reason that God shouldn't share His essence. In fact, there is evidence in His first name: Elohim, which is plural. Elohim says "let US make man in OUR image". Who was He speaking to? the angels? No. They never created anything. This places at least one being as pre-existing the Creation.

In fact, He shared a portion of His essence with us, as we are His children. The divine image resides in all of mankind. You, me, the prostitute on the corner.

That's all there is to Islam. That's where it ends. We do his will. Christians go the next step further. The end goal of Christians is that our will BECOMES the will of God.

You mean you'll become angels of God? In Islam humans have freewill, natural freedom - the freedom of choice for the Will. The Angels do not - they are programmed by God to do His Will. In Islam - Satan is not from the Angels - He is a Jinn (another creation of God) that was elevated to the status of the king of the angels by his piety.

Except that they have no evidence beyond what was written 800 years later. In fact, then Christ's own prophecy failed pretty much the moment He left. He said that the Church He established would be established in the Apostles, and would never fail. But if Islam is right about Christians perverting Christ, then Islam and Christianity is wrong about Christ being the Messiah. If Christ's church failed, One prophecy failed. And the scale by which a prophet's authority is based requires that not a single of His prophecies fail. Therefore, if Christianity failed, then we should all of us convert to Judaism.

Why should Islam also be wrong? Can you explain why you think we believe in all the alleged scriptures of Jesus Christ, because we don't? SO we can neglect any false prophecies as fabricated and falsely attributed to Christ.

Yes you should have returned to Judaism. You'll failed the test. That's why we believe Jesus would return again - not only to fulfill God's will on earth but also to forcefully be the Messiah - this time not so weak. That's one of the reasons Islam was revealed.

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from God ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. 2:79

 

[WordsOfRepentance]

Again....simplfying a concept for a non-christian to understand the root, is different then talking in heterodoxy being held as true.

and the person in question is a 17 year old....starting with a barer, but less then ideal point to THEN expand on kinda helps in dialogue.

I might be "young" but I do understand why Christians may differ in some concepts. So let the other correct you if you're wrong

 

[Mama Kidogo]

I might be "young" but I do understand why Christians may differ in some concepts. So let the other correct you if you're wrong

This may sound like an odd question. Can I ask what you are doing in a Christian only section? I don't object in the slightest of your being here but was just wondering. Did something draw you to this thread?

You do know by being here your saying you believe this:
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

[Lion King]

This may sound like an odd question. Can I ask what you are doing in a Christian only section? I don't object in the slightest of your being here but was just wondering. Did something draw you to this thread?

This thread is discussing about Islam....

 

[Mama Kidogo]

This thread is discussing about Islam....

I understand that. But I can't help but notice his avatar either. I think it's a bit more than just us speaking about Islam and I doubt he even realizes it.

 

[pshun2404]

Most Christian say God instead of Yahweh.
If Allah is a different God than the Christian God, then Judaism must be worshipping a different God, since they do not believe in Christ, correct? IMHO.
ALLAH is simply the Arabic word for Yahweh, so I would vote other if that would have been an option,

.

I disagree! That is incorrect. The Jewish people that do not accept the person of Jesus as being the Messiah has nothing to do with the many that accept the Biblical God of Abraham looking forward to the scion of David (although they should really read Zechariah 12:10) and under their covenant that is all the faith they need (to believe the God of the Torah)...

Did Abraham accept the person of Jesus as the Messiah? Did David? O they looked forward to the promised redeemer not knowing Him or His personal name...

...and though "today" it may be said Allah is the generic title for "God" (that would make the word the equivalent of "Elohim"), it actually is not the Arabic word for YHVH (His name)...

Allah was the NAME of a specific desert moon god which the Hebrew Bible calls by the name of "Sin" (pronounced like Syne like in Sinai)...it was never the Arabic generic (until recent rhetoric and propaganda of the last 5 centuries) but his NAME...so the question must now be re-phrased is the god who's name is Allah the same god who named Himself YHVH, who appeared manifest in diverse manners and audibly spoke to individuals through human history? YHVH came in the flesh...they will tells you that is blaspheme the Allah cannot come in the flesh (neither would he because the flesh is vile and sinful...the same flesh that YHVH created He said it was good). Whenever I talk to a Qur'an educated Moselm they always use the phrase "Your god" to refer to YHVH versus "my god" or "our god" for Allah...why do they draw such a distinction? Therefore I believe we should as well...

Paul

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Allah is no more the Arabic word for Yahweh than God is the English word for Yahweh. Yahweh is a name. The Hebrew word for God is El or Elohim. Muslims do not make that distinction between the word for God (Allah) and the name of God (Allah).

Only Arab Christians make that distinction in Arabic, between the term for God (Allah) and the name of God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

Thank you for that clarification.

Those words are also used in this passage of Exodus 15 and it is a shame the transliterated hebrew words aren't use in more Bible versions. IMHO

Exodus 15:1
Then Mosheh is singing and sons of Yisra'el the song, this to YAHWEH and they are saying to say of "I shall sing to YAHWEH, that to exalt He exalts.
Horse and one riding of him He heaved into sea [Reve 15:3]
2 Strenghth of me and melody of Yah. And He becoming to me for salvation.
This one El of me and I shall adorn Him,
Elohiym of father of me and I shall exalt Him"

Which is also mentioned in

Reve 15:3
And they are singing the Song of Moses, the bond-servant of the GOD and the Song of the Lamb saying "great and marvelous the Works of Thee LORD! the GOD, the Almighty.
Just and true the ways of Thee, the King of the saints" [*ages/*nations].
[Exodus 15]

Psalms 78:35
And remembered that, 'Elohiym was their rock
Yea, EL Most High/'elyown, their Redeemer/01350 ga'al:

Song of Moses - The Lord is my strength and my song - YouTube


.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by WordsOfRepentance

I might be "young" but I do understand why Christians may differ in some concepts. So let the other correct you if you're wrong
​

This may sound like an odd question. Can I ask what you are doing in a Christian only section? I don't object in the slightest of your being here but was just wondering. Did something draw you to this thread?.......

.

Perhaps he is unaware there are boards on CF that non-Christians can debate/discuss with Christians.
As I mentioned earlier, there is a thread similar to this one on the board below

Christian Forums > Ministry > Outreach > Christianity and World Religion

http://www.christianforums.com/t7389466/
Are Allah and Yaweh the same God?

Provide as to why they are. or as to why they aren't.

.

 

[Lion King]

I disagree! That is incorrect. The Jewish people that do not accept the person of Jesus as being the Messiah has nothing to do with the many that accept the Biblical God of Abraham looking forward to the scion of David (although they should really read Zechariah 12:10) and under their covenant that is all the faith they need (to believe the God of the Torah)...

Did Abraham accept the person of Jesus as the Messiah? Did David? O they looked forward to the promised redeemer not knowing Him or His personal name...

Paul

I respectfully disagree.

According to the teachings of the Scriptures, those who reject Jesus as the Messiah are not considered as God's children (Jews included).

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You mean you'll become angels of God? In Islam humans have freewill, natural freedom - the freedom of choice for the Will. The Angels do not - they are programmed by God to do His Will. In Islam - Satan is not from the Angels - He is a Jinn (another creation of God) that was elevated to the status of the king of the angels by his piety.

Why should Islam also be wrong? Can you explain why you think we believe in all the alleged scriptures of Jesus Christ, because we don't? SO we can neglect any false prophecies as fabricated and falsely attributed to Christ.

Yes you should have returned to Judaism. You'll failed the test. That's why we believe Jesus would return again - not only to fulfill God's will on earth but also to forcefully be the Messiah - this time not so weak. That's one of the reasons Islam was revealed.

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from God ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. 2:79

So Islam does believe in a 2nd coming of Jesus, as does Christianity? Interesting

You do know that Judaism has no concept of 2 comings of their Messiah in their religion, correct?

Judaism says when their future Messiah comes, He will fulfill all things at that time. At least that is my understanding.

Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah

Jews do not believe that Jesus was the mashiach. Assuming that he existed, and assuming that the Christian scriptures are accurate in describing him (both matters that are debatable), he simply did not fulfill the mission of the mashiach as it is described in the biblical passages cited above. Jesus did not do any of the things that the scriptures said the messiah would do.

On the contrary, another Jew born about a century later came far closer to fulfilling the messianic ideal than Jesus did. His name was Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kokhba (son of a star), and he was a charismatic, brilliant, but brutal warlord. Rabbi Akiba, one of the greatest scholars in Jewish history, believed that Bar Kokhba was the mashiach. Bar Kokhba fought a war against the Roman Empire, catching the Tenth Legion by surprise and retaking Jerusalem.
He resumed sacrifices at the site of the Temple and made plans to rebuild the Temple. He established a provisional government and began to issue coins in its name.

This is what the Jewish people were looking for in a mashiach; Jesus clearly does not fit into this mold. Ultimately, however, the Roman Empire crushed his revolt and killed Bar Kokhba. After his death, all acknowledged that he was not the mashiach.




.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

I respectfully disagree.

According to the teachings of the Scriptures, those who reject Jesus as the Messiah are not considered as God's children (Jews included).

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6

If you edit the word "children", replacing it with;"chosen, elect" or about twenty other words, I would agree completely. Can't do it with the word children. We are His whether we accept Him or not.

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Mankind isn't given a choice as to rather do this or not. You can do it now or later.