Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Albion]

Not that it helps you, but I went back and re-read that post and the one before it, and I can't figure out what the reference to Baptists was supposed so mean, either.

 

[mercy1061]

It is also an occurrence that as one grows closer to God even slight sins grow in magnitude to them. St. Paul also taught that the Way is a process. If you think that St. Paul didn't grow in his faith and was not stagnant, then quite honestly I really don't have anything else to offer, except that this shows also why this new idea that you guys have is just purely wrong and bad. I really cannot believe I have come across Christians who are advocating sin and spiritual sloth.

Who said that Pharisee Shaul did not grow? Without the torah, I would not know what sin is. The more you study torah, the more you be able to recognize sin. How does anyone know what they look like without looking in the mirror? Will you notice your spots or blemishes without looking at yourself in the mirror? Perhaps you will forget about your facial blemishes if you never look into the mirror again. If you break the glass mirror into many small pieces, throw it away, your friends may remind you of your facial spots or blemishes. The lamb prepared for sacrifice must be perfect; without spot or blemish.

 

[squint]

It is also an occurrence that as one grows closer to God even slight sins grow in magnitude to them. St. Paul also taught that the Way is a process. If you think that St. Paul didn't grow in his faith and was not stagnant, then quite honestly I really don't have anything else to offer, except that this shows also why this new idea that you guys have is just purely wrong and bad. I really cannot believe I have come across Christians who are advocating sin and spiritual sloth.

Your observations above do not add up.

Love compels a person like nothing other.

Performances under threat or duress are an entirely different relationship.

s

 

[squint]

There is still sin, the "little" sins grow bigger as we are being conformed to The image of Christ. More importantly, secret sins come out of the shadows, and hidden sins can no longer remain hidden when exposed to The Light.

The more we experience God's holiness the more UNholy we realize we really are compared to God. IOW, as we get closer to God our sin increases because we now understand we are more proficient at sin than we had previously deluded ourselves into thinking.

Indeed. Athletes who work their ways through from amateurs to pro's experience a similar pattern where the smallest errors must be dealt with. The amateur on the other hand doesn't have the skill sets and their flaws are obvious and numerous.

The pro makes one small mistake and will beat themselves senseless to try and correct that issue. That's how they got to that skill level.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Performances under threat or duress are an entirely different relationship.

s

Luke 12:47
The servant who knows the master's will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.

Luke 12:46
The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

 

[squint]

Luke 12:47
The servant who knows the master's will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.

Luke 12:46
The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

and?

Do you really think someone who is cut to pieces will still 'have a place?' Seems to me they'd be dead.

If you think you see eternal torture in fire in any of the above what can I say but that threats and fears heighten the imaginations of a natural man.

s

 

[catholichomeschooler]

and?

Do you really think someone who is cut to pieces will still 'have a place?' Seems to me they'd be dead.

If you think you see eternal torture in fire in any of the above what can I say but that threats and fears heighten the imaginations of a natural man.

s

My point was that this sounds like duress.

Jesus gives us stern warnings frequently.

 

[squint]

My point was that this sounds like duress.

Jesus gives us stern warnings frequently.

None of which included believers being burned alive forever.

 

[bottomofsandal]

None of which included believers being burned alive forever.

Perhaps we have stumbled onto something inadvertently...



It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of The Living God. The god (intentional) some are depicting is a vengeful, spiteful overlord who practices tyranny by ruling with an iron fist, and has zero tolerance for disobedience.



You better not step out of line !

You better not disobey me !

You better not sin after salvation !

You better be perfect all the time !




There seems to be fear and dread of a face-to-face encounter with an angry, wrathful deity who is mad that people did not try harder, perform at a higher level, and obey 100% of the laws 100% of the time. The impression that is being communicated is that God changes His mind about forgiveness, mercy, and grace. This portrays a caricature of God, not the nature and attributes of God. Did man create this deformed version of God for a reason ?

 

[Gibs]

Jesus gave the bottom line in a few words,

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

 

[Erose]

There is still sin, the "little" sins grow bigger as we are being conformed to The image of Christ. More importantly, secret sins come out of the shadows, and hidden sins can no longer remain hidden when exposed to The Light.


The more we experience God's holiness the more UNholy we realize we really are compared to God. IOW, as we get closer to God our sin increases because we now understand we are more proficient at sin than we had previously deluded ourselves into thinking.

I think a lot of what you say is true. The only thing I would say that even though our view of our own sins increases in magnitude, the actual sins do not. As we grown in Christ, we should be moving away from sin to righteousness. And we see this around us for sure. I can think of many of folks that go to my church that are more righteous than I, or further along the Way than I. I think all of us can identify someone in our lives and/or church who we see as being...well a more righteous person than most.

My point is this, we need to try to grow in our faith. We can't just sit stagnant in our faith. If we are, then we really need to look at what we are doing, and see what we need to do differently. Perhaps that is going to that righteous person, and seeing what they are doing; or ask our preacher/priest, etc.

 

[Erose]

Who said that Pharisee Shaul did not grow? Without the torah, I would not know what sin is. The more you study torah, the more you be able to recognize sin. How does anyone know what they look like without looking in the mirror? Will you notice your spots or blemishes without looking at yourself in the mirror? Perhaps you will forget about your facial blemishes if you never look into the mirror again. If you break the glass mirror into many small pieces, throw it away, your friends may remind you of your facial spots or blemishes. The lamb prepared for sacrifice must be perfect; without spot or blemish.

Ok, glad we finally agree on something.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Personally if someone believes in OSAS, but continue to grow in their sanctification and faith, then by all means that is great and I don't find fault there. I don't think you have to know everything perfectly right to live a life of faith anyway. Not all theologians get to heaven, and not all people in heaven are theologians, if that makes sense.

Personally, I believe in the Biblical View of "Conditional Salvation" that teaches that a true believer who is saved will naturally bring forth a life full of holiness and fruitful works. Now, do not misunderstand me, works are not done to be saved, but they are merely the evidence that you have been saved when one repents and accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. If a believer sins, they need to immediately confess that sin and forsake it and continue to walk uprightly with their Lord. If a believer continues to abide in unrepentant sin that leads unto death (lying cheating murder etc.) then they are not saved.

So seeing I hold to the Biblical View of "Conditional Salvation", I am naturally against all forms of OSAS. However, that said, I believe that only those who hold to "Conditional Salvation" and "OSAS Lite" are true Christians (or my brothers). I believe all other forms of OSAS are teachings from the pits of Hell; And those who teach such a doctrine of immorality are false teachers (Jude 1:4 NIV) (2 Peter 2:1, 14). Anyways, there are three major types of OSAS.

OSAS Type #1:
Classic OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) which says you can practice unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc.) and yet you can somehow still be saved.

OSAS Type #2:
Mid Range OSAS says that you cannot practice sin otherwise you do not know God. However, abiding in an occasional or small unrepentant sin and then dying in that sin will not necessarily send you to Hell.

OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. So falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In other words, I believe the real heart of the issue here is that we are talking about:
OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) versus Repentance.

 

[NorrinRadd]

Personally, I believe in the Biblical View of "Conditional Salvation" that teaches that a true believer who is saved will naturally bring forth a life full of holiness and fruitful works. Now, do not misunderstand me, works are not done to be saved, but they are merely the evidence that you have been saved when one repents and accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. If a believer sins, they need to immediately confess that sin and forsake it and continue to walk uprightly with their Lord. If a believer continues to abide in unrepentant sin that leads unto death (lying cheating murder etc.) then they are not saved.

So seeing I hold to the Biblical View of "Conditional Salvation", I am naturally against all forms of OSAS. However, that said, I believe that only those who hold to "Conditional Salvation" and "OSAS Lite" are true Christians (or my brothers). I believe all other forms of OSAS are teachings from the pits of Hell; And those who teach such a doctrine of immorality are false teachers (Jude 1:4 NIV) (2 Peter 2:1, 14). Anyways, there are three major types of OSAS.

OSAS Type #1:
Classic OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) which says you can practice unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc.) and yet you can somehow still be saved.

OSAS Type #2:
Mid Range OSAS says that you cannot practice sin otherwise you do not know God. However, abiding in an occasional or small unrepentant sin and then dying in that sin will not necessarily send you to Hell.

OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. So falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing).

Hmm. I don't completely fit any of those. However, I do believe salvation cannot be "lost" by "doing bad things" or "not doing good things."

 

[Erose]

Hmm. I don't completely fit any of those. However, I do believe salvation cannot be "lost" by "doing bad things" or "not doing good things."

Wouldn't that put you in the Type 1 category?

 

[Erose]

Personally, I believe in the Biblical View of "Conditional Salvation" that teaches that a true believer who is saved will naturally bring forth a life full of holiness and fruitful works. Now, do not misunderstand me, works are not done to be saved, but they are merely the evidence that you have been saved when one repents and accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. If a believer sins, they need to immediately confess that sin and forsake it and continue to walk uprightly with their Lord. If a believer continues to abide in unrepentant sin that leads unto death (lying cheating murder etc.) then they are not saved.

So seeing I hold to the Biblical View of "Conditional Salvation", I am naturally against all forms of OSAS. However, that said, I believe that only those who hold to "Conditional Salvation" and "OSAS Lite" are true Christians (or my brothers). I believe all other forms of OSAS are teachings from the pits of Hell; And those who teach such a doctrine of immorality are false teachers (Jude 1:4 NIV) (2 Peter 2:1, 14). Anyways, there are three major types of OSAS.

OSAS Type #1:
Classic OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) which says you can practice unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc.) and yet you can somehow still be saved.

OSAS Type #2:
Mid Range OSAS says that you cannot practice sin otherwise you do not know God. However, abiding in an occasional or small unrepentant sin and then dying in that sin will not necessarily send you to Hell.

OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. So falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing).

So how do you understand Conditional Salvation?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Put me down under Jason's OSAS "category 3".

OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. So falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing).

I believe that most of Christianity doesn't believe in OSAS because most do not understand or reject the concept of God's sovereign election of believers. As a result they do not really believe that their salvation is an unmerited gift from God.

"The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."

Believing every doctrine correctly is not required for salvation of course. That includes sovereign election with it's necessary conclusion of OSAS and any number of other very important doctrines.

 

[NorrinRadd]

Wouldn't that put you in the Type 1 category?

Maybe. I believe that those things in and of themselves do not condemn, but practicing them can ultimately lead one to willfully choose to abandon faith. So one cannot "lose" salvation, but one can make the willful and knowing choice to relinquish it; that would be a specific choice, not something that happens by "sinning."

 

[Gibs]

OSAS is but an erroneous theory. Many after true repentance are overcome again by Satan and his artful deceiving. No man of himself can stand alone to Him and unless you are keeping Christ in you as the sole, soul master in you will fall in sin.

Self must be crucified and kept that way for if he is allowed to raise up again and allowed to be master you have fallen back!

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.