Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Erose]

I'm not aware those exercises confer a position (however fleeting) of sinless perfection.

Our sins will be forgiven if we confess them. So if you sin, confess that sin, and God will forgive you. Do you understand what forgiveness is?

So your belief is that you are sinless perfection at the completion of whatever exercises are used to 'get there?'

I believe that we can grow in our faith, and sin less and less, and less grievously. We are called to grow in our faith with Him. We are called to become more like Him. St. Paul speaks of it as a race, and that as runners train hard for a crown that fades away, we should do no less for a crown that is imperishable. We are not meant to become couch potatoes after our initial justification.

Legalists make a similar claim. That they can (and sometimes do) work themselves into a state of sinless perfection by following the law. Or in the RCC case, their system.

Legalist believe that they can earn their way into heaven, through achieving sinless perfection. The problem with legalist is that they forget that Christ's atonement is necessary for our justification, and that without Christ's grace we have no chance to become Christ-like, in any way whatsoever.

Many times. I requested early in this thread that if any of you has a single named example of any believer who subsequently falls and then is assured to be burned alive forever this subject wouldn't even be discussed. So what you seek for the surety of non-OSAS isn't there to be had in a single named instance of any person.

IF you think you see God burning alive forever His children whom all of Israel are, you are sadly sadly mistaken.

We all die a bodily physical death because of sin.

I have given you plenty of examples, with Judas being the primary one. The first three chapters of Revelations provides other examples, and Gal 5, Paul is warning folks that they are about to, or have lost theirs, because of the evil that they were doing.

Poor equation.

So you are not a child of God?

The threat of hell to believers can be dangled and none will produce sinlessness in any case of threat.

Sure, threat of punishment never works does it? When I was a teen-ager at school we went on a field trip to a state prison close by our school. After leaving that place I told myself I was going to do nothing that could put me there, and I am 45 years old, and still have no criminal record. Does treat of punishment work on everyone? No. But it does work on others, and if that is what is required for them to follow Jesus, then so be it. They should though like I said before, grow out of that being the reason for their obedience, which I have also done.

Bad trees can't and don't produce 'good' fruit. Didn't you read the fine print? Neither are vessels of dishonor turned into vessels of honor.

Maybe you ought to read John 15 first. Wrong parable.

I understand that section drives a hard stake in a lot of false doctrine. That's why I cite it.

Hum, perhaps, but there seems to be a lot of false doctrine pop up when that passage is read in a vacuum.

If the god of this world blinds the minds of every unbeliever I would observe that power to be rather far reaching. It also clarifies who is my enemy and who is not. It is NOT the captives.

Uh, no. Satan is not a child of God.

So a Satan isn't a creature?

Depends on who's making the call doesn't it? There is no doubt in my mind that Moses is with his Heavenly Father in GLORY. Either that or we had a poser on the mount of transfiguration with Jesus.

Did he enter the promise land or not?

 

[Erose]

Of course you seethe same logic could be applied in that the doctrine of OSAS merely remained latent until someone not blinded by tradition could define it.

Perhaps that is one way to look at that. But there is also another way of looking at innovations in theology to. New is many times not a very good thing when it comes to doctrine.

Personally if someone believes in OSAS, but continue to grow in their sanctification and faith, then by all means that is great and I don't find fault there. I don't think you have to know everything perfectly right to live a life of faith anyway. Not all theologians get to heaven, and not all people in heaven are theologians, if that makes sense.

What's good for your goose is also good for my gander, no?

In some cases.

Still, I recognize your good character and intent and sympathize with your feeling assaulted.

I really don't take it personally, I just like to point it out. Many (including myself at times) don't realize that they are being hypocritical or being hateful or whatever; until it is pointed out. That is all I am trying to do. We are all humans and we all make mistakes, and perhaps if anything we may grow from each other on this forum.

Thank you for your patience with us and your continuedinterest.

In return, thank you. I have been in one of those moods today, and it has shown. I do apologize if I have come off short.

 

[Viren]

Because they believe in freewill and choose to ignore James 1:14 and John 12:32.

 

[Erose]

Here ^ again we're treated to the idea of men being able to save themselves.

Because I noted it, next will come your vehement denial of the idea.

Once again we have another attempt to imply something in someone's else's posts that isn't there. There is no one on these forums that I know of that believes we can work our way into heaven. No one. And yet it is the biggest accusation used, when well quite frankly one doesn't have an argument.

Albion, what do you do with those passages in Scripture that tells us to keep the commandments? What do you do with the passage in John 15:10, that says for us to abide in Christ we must keep His commandments? Does not these passages explicitly point out that yes we are saved by faith, but something more than just belief is required from us. If we truly believe in Christ and we will do what He tells us to do, which is keep the commandments, do acts of charity, etc.

See here is the problem with OSAS, you guys are so scared of the word "works"; that you dodge it as if it is a viper. But does not Scripture tell us that when we are judged we will be judged by our works? Every single place in Scripture where it speaks of the final judgment it tells us what? By our works (or fruits) we shall be judged. Never does it say we will be judged by our faith, by our belief. So perhaps it is time to realize you are missing something in your theology. That your theology, doesn't take into consideration the full picture, but only a part.

I'm not all that much into making hoops for people to jump through to prove their eternal worth.

Kind of runs opposite to the reality of our current situation.

Doing what Our Lord and Savior would have me do. If he is the one in whom I have Faith, I of course will want to live as he would have me live.

And that's exactly how I try to live my own life--doing what he taught us to do because he taught us to do it, and without any thought about how it might gain me brownie points with God or make my salvation more likely.

Oh, they read it. But when they have no answer to what we wrote, some of them like to pretend that we said something other than we did.

That was what I was thinking as well.

 

[Erose]

Because they believe in freewill and choose to ignore James 1:14 and John 12:32.

Nope don't ignore those passages, we like using the whole Bible when it comes to doctrine and not picking and choosing a few small passages, without looking at the whole.

 

[mercy1061]

It has been pointed out that the tradition of OSAS does not survive even one of the texts listed on this thread at this post.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7828521-53/#post65913382


A very simple and obvious example from that list is the forgiveness revoked example from Matt 18

Matt 18
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.



Until we read that scripture listed above.


Pointed list of questions for those not fearful of the text itself.

"According to the text"

Is God asking in Matt 18 that the fully forgiven do what they "cannot do" - can never do?? Can only do if they are infinite God?

Is God telling the fully forgiven in Matt 18 that he will revoke their forgiveness because they fail to do what only God can do and not even the saints are enabled to obey so they must have their forgiveness revoked?

Is that what the text says ??


Note the obvious detail "in the text" that the one "fully forgiven" then experiences "forgiveness revoked" and must pay the full -- original - debt.

Then note that Christ then extends that same result to the saved saints that are His disciples - the "fully forgiven".

Jesus Himself gave us the correlation

For those who object to this text in favor of their own OSAS tradition - please remember that I am not the author of the text -- I give all the credit to Jesus.

Note: To imagine salvation that means "not forgiven and paying your own debt" is to imagine "another gospel". If the saved have all of their forgiveness revoked and then must pay their own debt of sin in full - they will not survive it according to Matt 10:28. You don't come back from that according to the text.




Indeed. The lost sinner pays his full debt of sin in the lake of Fire mentioned in Rev 20.

In Luke 12:45-49 Christ said that some who go to hell pay with few stripes and others with many.

But all pay - and all will pay "in full".



When BoS responded to this point even he could not omit the forgiveness revoked detail.



I responded with the following:





So then we saw this response.




The details in the text of Matt 18 matter - even if they are inconvenient for the OSAS tradition.


in Christ,

Bob

The debt was never repaid, the wicked servant still owed a debt. Of course this wicked servant BEFORE he was forgiven, he PROMISED to repay the king! If you make a vow to the L-rd be careful that you keep it, lest you end up like this wicked servant. Does it mean anything to you that the servant is called wicked? A wicked person is one who refuses to repay his debts after he has been forgiven.

 

[Viren]

Nope don't ignore those passages, we like using the whole Bible when it comes to doctrine and not picking and choosing a few small passages, without looking at the whole.

I guess dragging someone would be considered free choice then.

 

[Erose]

I guess dragging someone would be considered free choice then.

 

[Viren]

Read the passages.

 

[mercy1061]

Our sins will be forgiven if we confess them. So if you sin, confess that sin, and God will forgive you. Do you understand what forgiveness is?


I believe that we can grow in our faith, and sin less and less, and less grievously. We are called to grow in our faith with Him. We are called to become more like Him. St. Paul speaks of it as a race, and that as runners train hard for a crown that fades away, we should do no less for a crown that is imperishable. We are not meant to become couch potatoes after our initial justification.



Legalist believe that they can earn their way into heaven, through achieving sinless perfection. The problem with legalist is that they forget that Christ's atonement is necessary for our justification, and that without Christ's grace we have no chance to become Christ-like, in any way whatsoever.

I have given you plenty of examples, with Judas being the primary one. The first three chapters of Revelations provides other examples, and Gal 5, Paul is warning folks that they are about to, or have lost theirs, because of the evil that they were doing.



So you are not a child of God?




Sure, threat of punishment never works does it? When I was a teen-ager at school we went on a field trip to a state prison close by our school. After leaving that place I told myself I was going to do nothing that could put me there, and I am 45 years old, and still have no criminal record. Does treat of punishment work on everyone? No. But it does work on others, and if that is what is required for them to follow Jesus, then so be it. They should though like I said before, grow out of that being the reason for their obedience, which I have also done.





Maybe you ought to read John 15 first. Wrong parable.



Hum, perhaps, but there seems to be a lot of false doctrine pop up when that passage is read in a vacuum.




So a Satan isn't a creature?





Did he enter the promise land or not?

Pharisee Shaul was an expert in the scriptures, he never said he sinned less, although he was a changed man, he called himself chief sinner; worst sinner. The more you study and learn torah you will find out that you are the worst sinner on planet earth; at the same time Pharisee Shaul was blameless.

 

[squint]

Pharisee Shaul was an expert in the scriptures, he never said he sinned less, although he was a changed man, he called himself chief sinner; worst sinner. The more you study and learn torah you will find out that you are the worst sinner on planet earth; at the same time Pharisee Shaul was blameless.

Good to be led to that sight of fact.

 

[squint]

Our sins will be forgiven if we confess them. So if you sin, confess that sin, and God will forgive you. Do you understand what forgiveness is?

Forgiveness ≠ sinlessness

I have given you plenty of examples, with Judas being the primary one. The first three chapters of Revelations provides other examples, and Gal 5, Paul is warning folks that they are about to, or have lost theirs, because of the evil that they were doing.

You've given nothing of the sort because there is nothing of the sort to be had. Where you think you see X believer fell and is going to fry alive forever doesn't exist.

Sure, threat of punishment never works does it?

Certainly not to the extent of making anyone sinless.

So a Satan isn't a creature?

As much as you are a insect.

Satan is an evil spirit.

Did he enter the promise land or not?

Why do you keep repeating that when it's been addressed?

Numbers 20:12
And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

Is God frying Moses alive in fire forever for this failure to believe?

How about all these saved?

Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Hebrews 3:19
So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

s

 

[Rick Otto]

Perhaps that is one way to look at that. But there is also another way of looking at innovations in theology to. New is many times not a very good thing when it comes to doctrine.

Personally if someone believes in OSAS, but continue to grow in their sanctification and faith, then by all means that is great and I don't find fault there. I don't think you have to know everything perfectly right to live a life of faith anyway. Not all theologians get to heaven, and not all people in heaven are theologians, if that makes sense.

In some cases.



I really don't take it personally, I just like to point it out. Many (including myself at times) don't realize that they are being hypocritical or being hateful or whatever; until it is pointed out. That is all I am trying to do. We are all humans and we all make mistakes, and perhaps if anything we may grow from each other on this forum.

In return, thank you. I have been in one of those moods today, and it has shown. I do apologize if I have come off short.

I've seen you at your best and appreciated many of your pithy comments, observations, and peace making attempts. I would trust your judgement in most things I'm sure, and I sensed you were feeling put upon. Even if I'm being right and you're being wrong, if I fail to be less than loving about it, I'm most wrong.
The last thing I want to do is discourage you from dialogue.
You're a decent guy Erose. Hang in there with us.

 

[NorrinRadd]

I guess dragging someone would be considered free choice then.

So you're a full universalist.

 

[Erose]

Pharisee Shaul was an expert in the scriptures, he never said he sinned less, although he was a changed man, he called himself chief sinner; worst sinner. The more you study and learn torah you will find out that you are the worst sinner on planet earth; at the same time Pharisee Shaul was blameless.

It is also an occurrence that as one grows closer to God even slight sins grow in magnitude to them. St. Paul also taught that the Way is a process. If you think that St. Paul didn't grow in his faith and was not stagnant, then quite honestly I really don't have anything else to offer, except that this shows also why this new idea that you guys have is just purely wrong and bad. I really cannot believe I have come across Christians who are advocating sin and spiritual sloth.

 

[Erose]

Read the passages.

Which ones?

 

[Erose]

I've seen you at your best and appreciated many of your pithy comments, observations, and peace making attempts. I would trust your judgement in most things I'm sure, and I sensed you were feeling put upon. Even if I'm being right and you're being wrong, if I fail to be less than loving about it, I'm most wrong.
The last thing I want to do is discourage you from dialogue.
You're a decent guy Erose. Hang in there with us.

Thank Rick, if anything this short dialogue shows how we can come to respect each other's views on this forum.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Pharisee Shaul was an expert in the scriptures, he never said he sinned less, although he was a changed man, he called himself chief sinner; worst sinner. The more you study and learn torah you will find out that you are the worst sinner on planet earth; at the same time Pharisee Shaul was blameless.

Your wisdom is much appreciated brother !

Paul says, " I am chief of sinners".

That is an important distinction many overlook.

 

[bottomofsandal]

It is also an occurrence that as one grows closer to God even slight sins grow in magnitude to them.

There is still sin, the "little" sins grow bigger as we are being conformed to The image of Christ. More importantly, secret sins come out of the shadows, and hidden sins can no longer remain hidden when exposed to The Light.


The more we experience God's holiness the more UNholy we realize we really are compared to God. IOW, as we get closer to God our sin increases because we now understand we are more proficient at sin than we had previously deluded ourselves into thinking.

 

[tulipbee]

Pretty much every denomation besides Baptists.

The Baptist believe in what?