Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Gibs]

So, in terms of 'human time' how long have you been sinless?

How long is not to worry of but continuing in Him is a wonderful and peaceful walk and I do not in the least care to depart from it.

 

[squint]

How long is not to worry of but continuing in Him is a wonderful and peaceful walk and I do not in the least care to depart from it.

You understand that claims of being sinless are met with rightful scriptural criticism, 'not being truthful?' Which is also a sin.

 

[squint]

The parable of the sower shows us that people fall away from Chris. My question was how can one be "once saved, always saved" when Christ himself tells us people fall away.

You are equating temporary falleness to eternal damnation. They are not the same things. The latter requires Jesus to abandon them and that doesn't happen.

I have no idea what you're talking about with shooting etc...

I was addressing your circular reasoning that people leave Jesus, noting that there is no place to flee to.

 

[Gibs]

You understand that claims of being sinless are met with rightful scriptural criticism, 'not being truthful?' Which is also a sin.

I walk with Jesus and as Paul states am dead to sin and so how can I continue in it?

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

I suggest you take a look who is our judge. Christ in you my friend is the answer over sin.

 

[Rick Otto]

He didn't say you continue in it .

But if you say you are without it...

 

[Rick Otto]

How can there be "fallen faithful" if you believe in OSAS?

How can there be lost sheep if Jesus Christ is Sheppard?

 

[Gibs]

He didn't say you continue in it .

But if you say you are without it...

None of course is without sin until He comes broken and repents and then his sin is forgiven him and then what Paul states is the continuing life to live,

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

 

[Nik0s]

You are equating temporary falleness to eternal damnation. They are not the same things. The latter requires Jesus to abandon them and that doesn't happen.

God doesn't condemn (damn) people, people condemn themselves out of the hardness of their hearts and their pride. The teaching of the Church is that salvation is a process, part of a life that must be lived.

I was addressing your circular reasoning that people leave Jesus, noting that there is no place to flee to.

It's not circular reasoning. People apostasize it's a fact of life. St. Paul talks about this is scripture when addressing the Hebrews. Once saved, always saved is a modern doctrine not taught in scripture por by anyone in the early church. You can't just say "I accept you into my heart Jesus!" and become "saved." It is only through faith that we are saved, and part of faith is living a Christ-like life. We must be like the seeds that take root in the fertile soil and not fall away like the seeds in the rocky soil.

 

[Rick Otto]

God doesn't condemn (damn) people, people condemn themselves out of the hardness of their hearts and their pride. The teaching of the Church is that salvation is a process, part of a life that must be lived.

It's not circular reasoning. People apostasize it's a fact of life. St. Paul talks about this is scripture when addressing the Hebrews. Once saved, always saved is a modern doctrine not taught in scripture por by anyone in the early church. You can't just say "I accept you into my heart Jesus!" and become "saved." It is only through faith that we are saved, and part of faith is living a Christ-like life. We must be like the seeds that take root in the fertile soil and not fall away like the seeds in the rocky soil.

The teaching of scripture is different than the teaching of the church, then.

Seeds don't choose where they get planted and If people condemn themselves, it is not without His creative intent in their doing so, for nothing happens in an omniscient God's creation without His causing it or allowing it.

It's the nicolaitan priesthood that wants one to believe it is a process only they thoroughly understand enough to be trusted with authority over.
Which basically equates with authority over you.

 

[Nik0s]

The teaching of scripture is different than the teaching of the church, then.

Nope. It's clear what the parable is talking about, stop trying to do hoops. Jesus specifically tells us not to be like the seeds that landed on the rocks, that we must persevere in our faith. Nowhere does it say we make a one time declaration for Christ and that's it. If OSAS is true, what further need does a savior serve after one makes their declaration?

Seeds don't choose where they get planted and If people condemn themselves, it is not without His creative intent in their doing so, for nothing happens in an omniscient God's creation without His causing it or allowing it.

God does not want people to turn away from him, but we have the free will to do so, and many have .

It's the nicolaitan priesthood that wants one to believe it is a process only they thoroughly understand enough to be trusted with authority over.
Which basically equates with authority over you.

Protestants have a much different view of salvation than Orthodox. To you, salvation is just a "get out of Hell free card" so that you can enter heaven when you die. To look at Salvation as a one time event where you make a "choice" for Christ is unbiblical and not supported by Church history. Salvation is a process, think of it like a road. When we're driving on the road (of salvation ) we will often encounter pot holes, detours, road closings etc.. that will distract and side track us from our path. Sometimes we may take a detour to a very dark and bad place, but (God willing with prayer and faith in our Lord and savior Jesus Christ) we eventually emerge on to the correct path. To the Orthodox to be "saved" is not just a "get out of Hell free!" card it is direct participation in the energies of God. One is never truly "lost" in life, there is always room to improve! Likewise, no one, not even the most Holy of our monastics, can say they are 100% "saved" and have no more room for improvement. On the road we walk as Christains we can also improve and strive to be more Christ-like. As Christ was the perfect man, whose divine and human wills were in complete agreement, so to do we strive to align our wills and actions with those of God's. "What would Jesus do?" indeed!

 

[Rick Otto]

Salvation is not a road.
Declarations of belief are not be necessarily belief.

Stop misrepresenting Protestantism.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

..... Salvation is a process, think of it like a road. When we're driving on the road (of salvation ) we will often encounter pot holes, detours, road closings etc.. that will distract and side track us from our path. Sometimes we may take a detour to a very dark and bad place, but (God willing with prayer and faith in our Lord and savior Jesus Christ) we eventually emerge on to the correct path. ....

That process is sanctification of those who are saved.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

God doesn't condemn (damn) people, people condemn themselves out of the hardness of their hearts and their pride. The teaching of the Church is that salvation is a process, part of a life that must be lived.

It's not circular reasoning. People apostasize it's a fact of life. St. Paul talks about this is scripture when addressing the Hebrews. Once saved, always saved is a modern doctrine not taught in scripture por by anyone in the early church. You can't just say "I accept you into my heart Jesus!" and become "saved." It is only through faith that we are saved, and part of faith is living a Christ-like life. We must be like the seeds that take root in the fertile soil and not fall away like the seeds in the rocky soil.

Just to quote a few verses between the difference of sanctification and the security of salvation:

1) SANCTIFIED IN JESUS CHRIST- 1 COR 1;2, 30
2) " BY WORD OF GOD - JOHN 17;17 EPH 5;6
3) " BY BLOOD - HEB 13;12
4) " BY THE CROSS - HEB 10;10 GAL 6;14
5) " BY FAITH - ACTS 26'18


(Has God provided salvation, or has God just provided us with a chance for salvation to those who accept Jesus Christ as a personal savior?)
(Does God do a saving work for mankind? or does mankind contribute something to their own salvation?)

FALL FROM GRACE = REJECTION OF JESUS CHRIST

Galatians 5:4

4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

1 Timothy 4
The Great Apostasy
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

(Unredeemed mankind who hold to THE FORM OF GODLINESSS WHILE DENYING THE POWER THEREOF)

John 15:6 (keyword ABIDING)
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

(no truth behind their confession)

Hebrews 6 states basically that the record must stand and failures are not erased by going back and being saved all over again.

THE UNFAITHFUL LOSE REWARDS

John 15:2
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

1 Corinthians 3:15
15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

THE WORK OF THE FATHER

(A)Purpose of God,( basic to our Security )

Ephesians 1:4
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

Hebrews 2:10
Bringing Many Sons to Glory

10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

(B) The Power of God (to keep and save)

John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

(God is able to keep)

Romans 8:31-34
God’s Everlasting Love

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(C) Promise of God (basic to our security)

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 5:24
Life and Judgment Are Through the Son

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

(D) Love of God (basic also to our security)

Romans 5:7-9

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.


JESUS CHRIST'S WORK

(A) Provision of Son (basic to our security)

Romans 8
Free from Indwelling Sin
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit

(Author of eternal salvation)


Hebrews 5:8-9
8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

(IT IS FINISHED. PAID in FULL)

(B) Resurrection of Jesus Christ (provision for our security)

Ephesians 2:6
6 and (God) raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
(no enemy can challenge our being at home in God's presence)

(C) Jesus our advocate (basis for our security)

Hebrews 9:24
24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
(pleads the benifit of His death and value of His blood)

(D) His work as a Shepard (guarantee of our security)

John 10:27-28
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

John 17:11-16
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me,[a] that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept;[c] and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.


HOLY SPIRIT'S WORK

(A) HIS INDWELLING (BASIC TO OUR SECURITY)

Ephesians 2:22
22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

(permanant, not temporarily)

(the temple is now constructed of living stones)

(B) Baptism of the Holy Spirit (secure and safe)

1 Corinthians 12:13
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into[a] one Spirit.

Ephesians 5:27
27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

(The bride is made up of many individuals. If any be missing , the love-gift from Father to Son would be imperfect.)

(C) Sealing work of the Spirit (making us secure)

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[a] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

(The Holy Spirit is God's God's irrremovable , identifyable brand)


SUMMARY

God Himself secures those who seek Him as a refuge. He provides Jesus.
Noah was provided with an ark that He went into and God secured him inside. Jesus is our ark:
The Consummation of Love

17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.

John 10:
9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

 

[squint]

God doesn't condemn (damn) people, people condemn themselves out of the hardness of their hearts and their pride.

If it's a question of 'sinning' I'm not aware of any believer who stops sinning or becomes sinless in this present life.

If it's a question of unbelief, that is also a sin. Unbelief also has a cause that is not the person themselves. And unbelief is also accompanied by a Divine Reason that is from God, that He would show His Power over any such matter.

It's not circular reasoning. People apostasize it's a fact of life.

We all have an adversary. That adversary is Satan. Why do you blame any person who has believed, then been taken by the adversary? That makes no sense. Unbelief is NOT a cause that the person controls anymore than a person believes apart from Gods Granting.

St. Paul talks about this is scripture when addressing the Hebrews. Once saved, always saved is a modern doctrine not taught in scripture por by anyone in the early church. You can't just say "I accept you into my heart Jesus!" and become "saved." It is only through faith that we are saved, and part of faith is living a Christ-like life. We must be like the seeds that take root in the fertile soil and not fall away like the seeds in the rocky soil.

Very often a return to enslavement by the adversary is part of the dying of the seed, which is a christian requirement. None of this means a believer is abandoned by God in Christ.

As to the process, if you read Mark 4:15 the process is stepped out. The believers who had Word stolen also progress to the next stage. The connection term (in the KJV) is 'and these are they.'

 

[Gibs]

If it's a question of 'sinning' I'm not aware of any believer who stops sinning or becomes sinless in this present life.

If it's a question of unbelief, that is also a sin. Unbelief also has a cause that is not the person themselves. And unbelief is also accompanied by a Divine Reason that is from God, that He would show His Power over any such matter.


We all have an adversary. That adversary is Satan. Why do you blame the any person who has believed, then been taken by the adversary? That makes no sense. Unbelief is NOT a cause that the person controls anymore than a person believes apart from Gods Granting.



Very often a return to enslavement by the adversary is part of the dying of the seed, which is a christian requirement. None of this means a believer is abandoned by God in Christ.

As to the process, if you read Mark 4:15 the process is stepped out. The believers who had Word stolen also progress to the next stage. The connection term (in the KJV) is 'and these are they.'

It sure don't sound good from Jesus Himself it one isn't an overcomer,

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Yes we must put sin out of our life, He forgives of past sin at true repentance and then tells us, go sin no more. Now He would not tell you go and do what He knew you could not do.

He in you and the victory is yours, it is up to you.

 

[squint]

It sure don't sound good from Jesus Himself it one isn't an overcomer,

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Some believers get deluded into the lie they are not sinners. So what else is new in the world of deceptions?

Yes we must put sin out of our life, He forgives of past sin at true repentance and then tells us, go sin no more. Now He would not tell you go and do what He knew you could not do.

Yes, I'm familiar with your mantra and believe you have been cited here before, maybe with another name?

He in you and the victory is yours, it is up to you.

It is up to you? Please. Were salvation in our own hands we'd have chucked Jesus out the door long ago in favor of our own grubby little hands.

There are so many strange notions generated by the fear of being burned alive forever in people's heads it's hard to keep up with it all.

s

 

[Gibs]

Some believers get deluded into the lie they are not sinners. So what else is new in the world of deceptions?



Yes, I'm familiar with your mantra and believe you have been cited here before, maybe with another name?



It is up to you? Please. Were salvation in our own hands we'd have chucked Jesus out the door long ago in favor of our own grubby little hands.

There are so many strange notions generated by the fear of being burned alive forever in people's heads it's hard to keep up with it all.

s

All would do well to take a plain thus saith the Lord and He made the Way that any and all could overcome sin in this life.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Truly when He is dwelling within!

 

[squint]

All would do well to take a plain thus saith the Lord and He made the Way that any and all could overcome sin in this life.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

We are dead because of SIN.

Truly when He is dwelling within!

In case you missed the boat, Jesus does for a fact save sinners. And His Spirit also abides in sinning corrupt weak dishonorable natural people who have called upon Him in faith to save us from this present death.

 

[Nik0s]

Salvation is not a road.
Declarations of belief are not be necessarily belief.

Stop misrepresenting Protestantism.

I'm not misrepresenting anything. Evangelical Protestantism teaches that all one needs to do to be "saved" is accept Christ as their "personal Lord and savior." Like I said, salvation to you is nothing more than a free pass out of Hell. As I asked earlier, what's the point in still having a savior if you're once saved always saved?

 

[squint]

I'm not misrepresenting anything. Evangelical Protestantism teaches that all one needs to do to be "saved" is accept Christ as their "personal Lord and savior."

Paul explicitly teaches that in Romans 10:13. The orthodox have turned that simplicity on it's ear and made it a call continually requirement which amounts to classic works salvation.

So, simple faith or continual work?

Somewhere along the line believers should come to hold a Savior that saves regardless of our 'supposedly acceptable performances.'

God in Christ is NOT IN NEED of us dancing on a stick in order to SAVE us.

Like I said, salvation to you is nothing more than a free pass out of Hell. As I asked earlier, what's the point in still having a savior if you're once saved always saved?

Salvation may be a lot of things but the notion that God is going to burn you alive forever does fill the churches pews and coffers so it is a GREAT business strategy isn't it?

Manipulation by the priest class is nothing new in societies. It's been going on long before christianity came along.