Things to consider about the Ten Commandments

[VictorC]

You keep insisting on this as if you have struck a gold mine.
The ten commandments is of God the bondwoman is of man's doings.
Hagar was not given to Abram by God!
Should the command to worship God only be see as "bonds"? Is it to be gotten rid of because it is irrelevant? Keep your "gold mine" , I will keep my streets of gold!

I kept showing you what you posted because you directly contradicted Scripture, and you also contradicted yourself. The Bondwoman symbolized the Ten Commandments, as the author of the epistle defined for the reader by calling 'her' the covenant from Mount Sinai in Galatians 4:24. Here again you chose to contradict the definition he provided, and Scripture isn't subject to your private interpretation.

However, redefining Scripture is the hallmark of someone who isn't going to accept Scripture. That is your practice, which follows from Ellen White's practice:

Ellen claims Galatians refers to the 'ceremonial' law:

While tarrying at Corinth, Paul had cause for serious apprehension concerning some of the churches already established. Through the influence of false teachers who had arisen among the believers in Jerusalem, division, heresy, and sensualism were rapidly gaining ground among the believers in Galatia. These false teachers were mingling Jewish traditions with the truths of the gospel. Ignoring the decision of the general council at Jerusalem, they urged upon the Gentile converts the observance of the ceremonial law. {AA 383.1}

She then claims it refers to the moral law:

"The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith" (Gal. 3:24). In this scripture, the Holy Spirit through the apostle is speaking especially of the moral law. The law reveals sin to us, and causes us to feel our need of Christ and to flee unto Him for pardon and peace by exercising repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. {1SM 234.5}

Then she admits Galatians refers to both ceremonial and moral law:

I am asked concerning the law in Galatians. What law is the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ? I answer: Both the ceremonial and the moral code of ten commandments. {1SM 233.1}

And lastly she admits she doesn't know:

"Now brethren, I have nothing to say, no burden in regard to the law in Galatians. This matter looks to me of minor consequence in comparison with the spirit you have brought into your faith.--Letter 83, 1890, pp. 5-6. (To Willie and Mary White, March 13, 1890.) ​

Your babbling about gold junk is a diversion to reject Scripture. The red in your quote is where you again call the Ten Commandments a product of man, and not God.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Pharisee Shaul said another law at work he never equated them, the two laws have different origins. The law that is holy, righteous and good comes from G-d, the other law comes from sin and death. The sabbath is a place that we must enter, be careful that you do not fall short of it.

I'm sorry but I'm not going to play this game, the book says Paul not Shaul which is more akin to Saul. If you aren't going to read Paul's book of Roman's in context instead of cherry picking out a verse we have nothing to discuss. The Law of sin and death is the Mosaic Law..... it defines sin and breaking it equates death. It is also considered holy, that is the reason death is a part of it for transgressors.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I kept showing you what you posted because you directly contradicted Scripture, and you also contradicted yourself. The Bondwoman symbolized the Ten Commandments, as the author of the epistle defined for the reader by calling 'her' the covenant from Mount Sinai in Galatians 4:24. Here again you chose to contradict the definition he provided, and Scripture isn't subject to your private interpretation.

However, redefining Scripture is the hallmark of someone who isn't going to accept Scripture. That is your practice, which follows from Ellen White's practice:

Ellen claims Galatians refers to the 'ceremonial' law:

While tarrying at Corinth, Paul had cause for serious apprehension concerning some of the churches already established. Through the influence of false teachers who had arisen among the believers in Jerusalem, division, heresy, and sensualism were rapidly gaining ground among the believers in Galatia. These false teachers were mingling Jewish traditions with the truths of the gospel. Ignoring the decision of the general council at Jerusalem, they urged upon the Gentile converts the observance of the ceremonial law. {AA 383.1}

She then claims it refers to the moral law:

"The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith" (Gal. 3:24). In this scripture, the Holy Spirit through the apostle is speaking especially of the moral law. The law reveals sin to us, and causes us to feel our need of Christ and to flee unto Him for pardon and peace by exercising repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. {1SM 234.5}

Then she admits Galatians refers to both ceremonial and moral law:

I am asked concerning the law in Galatians. What law is the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ? I answer: Both the ceremonial and the moral code of ten commandments. {1SM 233.1}

And lastly she admits she doesn't know:

"Now brethren, I have nothing to say, no burden in regard to the law in Galatians. This matter looks to me of minor consequence in comparison with the spirit you have brought into your faith.--Letter 83, 1890, pp. 5-6. (To Willie and Mary White, March 13, 1890.) ​

Your babbling about gold junk is a diversion to reject Scripture. The red in your quote is where you again call the Ten Commandments a product of man, and not God.

This seems to be a common theme around legalists, that is redefining things back and forth first to suck the ignorant in and then to refute intelligent arguments against the almost ignorant and then once again to keep those who are confused in tow as they don't know what to think so give up and under peer pressure they just go with the flow.

 

[mercy1061]

I'm sorry but I'm not going to play this game, the book says Paul not Shaul which is more akin to Saul. If you aren't going to read Paul's book of Roman's in context instead of cherry picking out a verse we have nothing to discuss. The Law of sin and death is the Mosaic Law..... it defines sin and breaking it equates death. It is also considered holy, that is the reason death is a part of it for transgressors.

The law was intended to give life.....

 

[mercy1061]

I'm sorry but I'm not going to play this game, the book says Paul not Shaul which is more akin to Saul. If you aren't going to read Paul's book of Roman's in context instead of cherry picking out a verse we have nothing to discuss. The Law of sin and death is the Mosaic Law..... it defines sin and breaking it equates death. It is also considered holy, that is the reason death is a part of it for transgressors.

The law was intended to give life.....

When the law is misused or misrepresented it executes death.

 

[Sophrosyne]

The law was intended to give life.....

When the law is misused or misrepresented it executes death.

You completely ignore Paul's words.... he calls it a ministry of death, it is equated as bondage/slavery and a burden. One has to truly read Paul and the New Testament without preconceived notions about the Law to see this but too many totally ignore it. The Law is Holy but Jesus is Holier than it will be because apart from God the Law is meaningless and in God the Law isn't needed (in the spirit).

2 Corinthians 3:6-8

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came [a]with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

This scripture contradicts your claim entirely, and yet you either didn't read it or purposely ignored it.
We have the Law (the letter that kills) and the spirit compared to each other and contradict each other.

 

[from scratch]

The law was intended to give life.....

When the law is misused or misrepresented it executes death.

Not according to Rom 11:32.

That's what the law does. It condemns and executes. Read the Book of the Law. No where does it provide for eternal life. All provisions of the law are applied to physical life here and now for Israel only.

 

[tzadik]

Not according to Rom 11:32.

That's what the law does. It condemns and executes. Read the Book of the Law. No where does it provide for eternal life. All provisions of the law are applied to physical life here and now for Israel only.

Matthew 19:17.

Do you believe that part of God's commandments =

believe in the Savior?
Confess with your mouth?
Repent from your sins?
Turn away from your wicked ways?
Obey God's commandments? (ironically)

 

[tzadik]

Not according to Rom 11:32.

That's what the law does. It condemns and executes. Read the Book of the Law. No where does it provide for eternal life. All provisions of the law are applied to physical life here and now for Israel only.

Make sure you don't see the Law of God as one dimensional. That would make alot of the Scriptures skewed.

The Law does not only serve a purpose for those breaking it.

For those who believe and yearn to follow and serve their King, it is a delight! Always.

Do you believe that?

 

[Elder 111]

I kept showing you what you posted because you directly contradicted Scripture, and you also contradicted yourself. The Bondwoman symbolized the Ten Commandments, as the author of the epistle defined for the reader by calling 'her' the covenant from Mount Sinai in Galatians 4:24. Here again you chose to contradict the definition he provided, and Scripture isn't subject to your private interpretation.

However, redefining Scripture is the hallmark of someone who isn't going to accept Scripture. That is your practice, which follows from Ellen White's practice:

Ellen claims Galatians refers to the 'ceremonial' law:

While tarrying at Corinth, Paul had cause for serious apprehension concerning some of the churches already established. Through the influence of false teachers who had arisen among the believers in Jerusalem, division, heresy, and sensualism were rapidly gaining ground among the believers in Galatia. These false teachers were mingling Jewish traditions with the truths of the gospel. Ignoring the decision of the general council at Jerusalem, they urged upon the Gentile converts the observance of the ceremonial law. {AA 383.1}

She then claims it refers to the moral law:

"The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith" (Gal. 3:24). In this scripture, the Holy Spirit through the apostle is speaking especially of the moral law. The law reveals sin to us, and causes us to feel our need of Christ and to flee unto Him for pardon and peace by exercising repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. {1SM 234.5}

Then she admits Galatians refers to both ceremonial and moral law:

I am asked concerning the law in Galatians. What law is the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ? I answer: Both the ceremonial and the moral code of ten commandments. {1SM 233.1}

And lastly she admits she doesn't know:

"Now brethren, I have nothing to say, no burden in regard to the law in Galatians. This matter looks to me of minor consequence in comparison with the spirit you have brought into your faith.--Letter 83, 1890, pp. 5-6. (To Willie and Mary White, March 13, 1890.) ​

Your babbling about gold junk is a diversion to reject Scripture. The red in your quote is where you again call the Ten Commandments a product of man, and not God.

There is one trait that I have seen in your presentations. You conclude things that are not stated. She did not say she does not know! Highlighted for you.
I have stated also that the bondwoman meaning Hagar was man's idea (Sarah) The law was God doings. Where is the contradiction?

 

[VictorC]

There is one trait that I have seen in your presentations. You conclude things that are not stated. She did not say she does not know! Highlighted for you.

I didn't offer attribution this time, but the added comment comes directly from Dr. Raymond Cottrell, the recently departed SDA editor of volume 4 of the SDA Bible Commentary. Others have no difficulty seeing Ellen White contradict herself and finally admit she doesn't know, including scholars of your own sect. It came to mind because it is precisely what you did - contradict yourself.

I have stated also that the bondwoman meaning Hagar was man's idea (Sarah) The law was God doings. Where is the contradiction?

You left the definition Paul provided in Galatians 4:24 and replaced it with your own. In the allegory Paul wrote, Hagar the bondwoman isn't a human at all - she is a symbol used to represent the covenant from Mount Sinai. This is the Ten Commandments. You keep repeating the claim that the Ten Commandments was a product of man. Your fabrication is complete nonsense and contrary to Scripture.

Review your contradiction again:

First of all, you once again reversed the relationship of what kept whom until the time appointed by God.
Second of all, those retained by the bondwoman covenant from Mount Sinai have absolutely no claim to eternal life with the Heir: Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” (Galatians 4:30)

God did not ordain the bondwoman, that was man's doings: Sarah and Abraham. The ten Commandments on the other hand is directly from God.

See your own contradiction: your claim that God didn't ordain the Ten Commandments, concurrent with a claim that He did. The bondwoman was defined as the covenant from Mount Sinai in v.24, which is the Ten Commandments. Those retained by it have no claim to eternal life, as they are outside God's redemption.

 

[from scratch]

Matthew 19:17.

Do you believe that part of God's commandments =

believe in the Savior?
Confess with your mouth?
Repent from your sins?
Turn away from your wicked ways?
Obey God's commandments? (ironically)

Please explain why the man left dejected and not rejoicing. Jesus agreed with him and didn't accuse him o flying. You do the same in relationship to the 4th commandment. The commandment of God no longer is the Covenant made with Israel but the New Covenant sealed with the blood of my Savior, Jesus the Christ. You reject that covenant as evidenced by your posts.

 

[from scratch]

Make sure you don't see the Law of God as one dimensional. That would make alot of the Scriptures skewed.

The Law does not only serve a purpose for those breaking it.

For those who believe and yearn to follow and serve their King, it is a delight! Always.

Do you believe that?

One first must be subject to it in order to violate it. 1 Tim 1:9 says the law wasn't made for me (the righteous). The righteousness I possess isn't mine (Phil 3:9) but the righteousness of God (Jesus the Christ) by declaration (Rom 4). I've been born again.

 

[Elder 111]

You completely ignore Paul's words.... he calls it a ministry of death, it is equated as bondage/slavery and a burden. One has to truly read Paul and the New Testament without preconceived notions about the Law to see this but too many totally ignore it. The Law is Holy but Jesus is Holier than it will be because apart from God the Law is meaningless and in God the Law isn't needed (in the spirit).

2 Corinthians 3:6-8

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came [a]with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

This scripture contradicts your claim entirely, and yet you either didn't read it or purposely ignored it.
We have the Law (the letter that kills) and the spirit compared to each other and contradict each other.

You don't understand! Romans 7:
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
The problem is not the Ten Commandments but our relation ship to it!

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

 

[Elder 111]

I didn't offer attribution this time, but the added comment comes directly from Dr. Raymond Cottrell, the recently departed SDA editor of volume 4 of the SDA Bible Commentary. Others have no difficulty seeing Ellen White contradict herself and finally admit she doesn't know, including scholars of your own sect. It came to mind because it is precisely what you did - contradict yourself.

You left the definition Paul provided in Galatians 4:24 and replaced it with your own. In the allegory Paul wrote, Hagar the bondwoman isn't a human at all - she is a symbol used to represent the covenant from Mount Sinai. This is the Ten Commandments. You keep repeating the claim that the Ten Commandments was a product of man. Your fabrication is complete nonsense and contrary to Scripture.

Review your contradiction again:


See your own contradiction: your claim that God didn't ordain the Ten Commandments, concurrent with a claim that He did. The bondwoman was defined as the covenant from Mount Sinai in v.24, which is the Ten Commandments. Those retained by it have no claim to eternal life, as they are outside God's redemption.

The Ten commandments are not the covenant, There are part thereof, part of the conditions under which the covenant would remain valid. Just like circumcision was not the covenant with Abraham but a one of the conditions of maintaining that covenant. You keep missing the mark.

 

[Elder 111]

Please explain why the man left dejected and not rejoicing. Jesus agreed with him and didn't accuse him o flying. You do the same in relationship to the 4th commandment. The commandment of God no longer is the Covenant made with Israel but the New Covenant sealed with the blood of my Savior, Jesus the Christ. You reject that covenant as evidenced by your posts.

The man rejected Jesus, did you not see that? "Sell all and follow me" was the request!
BY the way, the man committed idolatry, he did break one of the ten thereby. He placed his money before Jesus. Could you not see that?

 

[Elder 111]

One first must be subject to it in order to violate it. 1 Tim 1:9 says the law wasn't made for me (the righteous). The righteousness I possess isn't mine (Phil 3:9) but the righteousness of God (Jesus the Christ) by declaration (Rom 4). I've been born again.

You are born again Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.(Romans 8:7)

 

[VictorC]

The Ten commandments are not the covenant...<snip>

Read what Moses testified:

Deuteronomy 4
7 “For what great nation is there that has God so near to it, as the Lord our God is to us, for whatever reason we may call upon Him? 8 And what great nation is there that has such statutes and righteous judgments as are in all this law which I set before you this day? 9 Only take heed to yourself, and diligently keep yourself, lest you forget the things your eyes have seen, and lest they depart from your heart all the days of your life. And teach them to your children and your grandchildren, 10 especially concerning the day you stood before the Lord your God in Horeb, when the Lord said to me, ‘Gather the people to Me, and I will let them hear My words, that they may learn to fear Me all the days they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children.’
11 “Then you came near and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire to the midst of heaven, with darkness, cloud, and thick darkness. 12 And the Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire. You heard the sound of the words, but saw no form; you only heard a voice. 13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone. 14 And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that you might observe them in the land which you cross over to possess.​

The Ten Commandments was the proper name Moses called the covenant from Mount Sinai. The covenant also includes the Book of the Law (Exodus 24:7) which is what you quoted to show the Ten Commandments.
This is the only covenant that came from Mount Sinai.
And this is what you claimed was the product of man when you rejected Paul's definition of the symbolic bondwoman in Galatians 4:21-31.

I shouldn't need to keep showing how you've contradicted yourself. Attempting to change Biblical terminology illustrates your rejection of Scripture.

 

[VictorC]

You don't understand! Romans 7:
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 and the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Emphasis changed in your own quote.

The problem is not the Ten Commandments but our relation ship to it!

Your adversity to the old covenant is wholly contrary to your quote describing its effect on those retained by it. Notice the pronoun "it" refers to the Law, not your alleged relationship.

 

[from scratch]

The man rejected Jesus, did you not see that? "Sell all and follow me" was the request!
BY the way, the man committed idolatry, he did break one of the ten thereby. He placed his money before Jesus. Could you not see that?

IOW it really wasn't the keeping of the law.