I think mid rapture or pre raptuer will happen why?

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Bible2

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Shocker said in post 6:

Yeah, but then you run into issues with these verses.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The 7 epistles to 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what's today western Turkey).

Revelation 3:10 meant that the literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) would be kept safe from a persecution which came upon all the Roman world during the time of the Roman emperor Domitian. For the apostle John saw his Revelation vision (Revelation 1:1) near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and Domitian persecuted the church toward the end of his reign. The righteous, literal, 1st century local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) had to suffer and die in that persecution over a period of 10 literal days (Revelation 2:10).

The 1st century church in Philadelphia didn't have to be taken out of the world to be kept safe from (Greek: "ek") that persecution. For, as Jesus prayed for the church in general: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil" (John 17:15,20). Also, the 1st century church in Philadelphia didn't have to be removed from time itself or from the earth in order to be kept from the "hour" (or the "time") of that persecution, just as, for example, a student in a classroom who has been excused from taking a test doesn't have to be removed from time itself or from the classroom in order to be excused from that time of testing. For he can be made to sit at his desk reading during that time, which won't be a time of testing for him.

Also, the 1st century persecution of Revelation 3:10 (and Revelation 2:10) was only "world"-wide in the sense of the Roman "world" (cf. Luke 2:1). So the subsequent reference to those on the "earth" in Revelation 3:10 should be understood as those Christians living on the earth during that time in the Roman empire, as opposed to those Christians who had already died and gone to heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

Shocker said in post 6:

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Matthew 24:22, like Mark 13:20, can mean that all flesh on the earth would die if the Lord hadn't already shortened, as in "he hath shortened" (Mark 13:20b), the number of days of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Mark 13, Matthew 24, and Luke 21. The Lord could have already determined, from the beginning of Creation (cf. Isaiah 46:10), that he will return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). And the Lord will return "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), immediately after its final event, the worldwide destruction during the 7th vial (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6). So Mark 13:20 can mean that if the Lord hadn't shortened the number of days of the tribulation, then all flesh on the earth would die during the 7th vial's aftermath, which could be a nuclear-winter scenario (which the Lord will miraculously prevent at his return) brought on by the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire nuking the cities of the earth at the 7th vial (Revelation 17:16-17a, Revelation 16:19).

Shocker said in post 6:

Luk_21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Note that Luke 21:36 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For some in the church will escape all of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 by dying before it begins (Isaiah 57:1). And others in the church will escape all of it by being physically protected on the earth during it (Revelation 12:14-16, Psalms 91). Those who will escape it by dying before it begins will stand before the Lord in heaven (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And those who will escape it by being miraculously protected on the earth during it will stand before the Lord in the sky at the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Shocker said in post 6:

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Matthew 24:37-41, like Luke 17:26-37, refers to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed by God, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath of God (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

Shocker said in post 6:

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

The woman in Revelation 12 represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). She's clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). The moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). The crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26), who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child", and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6), represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities, and will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, Genesis 37:9-10 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1, the church/Israel isn't clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the church/Israel doesn't have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the church/Israel doesn't have Jacob's 12 sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the 12 apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her 12 tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).
 
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n2thelight

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So if you believe Jesus raptures the church at the end of the tribulation, does that mean He'll rapture everyone when He's on earth?


I believe all are changed at the 7th trump,saint and sinner alike...I believe we gather to Christ here on earth,not in Heaven...The only way one gets to Heaven before Christ returns,is to die first,and those that have died,are those that Christ brings back with Him.......
 
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n2thelight

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Yeah, but then you run into issues with these verses.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

He can do that without a rapture,remember the blood on the post
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

That is the time of the AntiChrist rule,meaning had He not cut those days short all would have been deceived
Luk_21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luk 17:34 "I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left.

Luk 17:35 "There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left
.
Luk 17:36 "Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."

Those taken are taken by deception,that's the whole purpose of the tribulation
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. (Mal_4:2Gen_17:10;Lev_12:2;Rev_2:25-27;1Th_4:17;Rev_7:9)

The Man Child is Christ and yes He was caught up,where He sits now,at the right hand of God,where He must remain

Acts 3:21

Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
 
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Tzaousios

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You just lost all credibility with me when you said "Josephus".

A Christ hating Jew, not a prophet of God, and historical works that are not objective in placing a time with the prophecy, nor is there another witness to confirm his claims.


Good day sir.

This is quite amusing when you demanded that he offer "parallel Scripture verses" to back up what he says and you then proceed to ignore what he offered from Luke and discredit him because he mentions Josephus in a secondary fashion. Why did you do that?
 
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Shocker

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The Man Child is Christ and yes He was caught up,where He sits now,at the right hand of God,where He must remain

Acts 3:21

Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Christ ascended.

Joh_3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Joh_20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Ascend
αναβαίνω
anabainō
an-ab-ah'ee-no
; to go up (literally or figuratively): - arise, ascend (up), climb (go, grow, rise, spring) up, come (up).


"Caught up"
αρπάζω
harpazō
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).



As you can plainly see from the living word of God, that Christ, who is God, hasn't a need to be "taken by force" or "plucked up".

Jesus Chrst is God, Jesus Christ ascended.


If he was caught up, we wouldn't have this major contrast in descriptions regarding how he left the earth.
 
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Shocker

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This is quite amusing when you demanded that he offer "parallel Scripture verses" to back up what he says and you then proceed to ignore what he offered from Luke and discredit him because he mentions Josephus in a secondary fashion. Why did you do that?

Josephus offers nothing to scripture.

Its that simple.

No dates, no prophetic confirmation.

Nothing.



He was a Jew, and one who rejected Jesus Christ. Im not surprised you think he is a valid source.
 
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Tzaousios

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Josephus offers nothing to scripture.

Its that simple.

No dates, no prophetic confirmation.

Nothing.



He was a Jew, and one who rejected Jesus Christ. Im not surprised you think he is a valid source.

Again, you ignored what he offered from Luke and took the fact that he secondarily mentioned Josephus as some kind of escape hatch that you could take to discredit everything. Why did you do that?
 
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J

Jerico Miles

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I believe all are changed at the 7th trump,saint and sinner alike...I believe we gather to Christ here on earth,not in Heaven...The only way one gets to Heaven before Christ returns,is to die first,and those that have died,are those that Christ brings back with Him.......

So are you saying we all tranform while on earth in the middle of the tribulation before Jesus returns?

Or if you're post-trib, are you saying we all transform at the end of the tribulation as we gather to Christ on earth? But that would make the 7th trumpet fall at the end of the tribulation from your belief. Where's the vials?
 
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Shocker

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Again, you ignored what he offered from Luke and took the fact that he secondarily mentioned Josephus as some kind of escape hatch that you could take to discredit everything. Why did you do that?

Luke is describing events that are not consistent with the pre 70ad account of Josephus.

If you want to parallel Luke, do it with scripture.


If you have an objective event that cannot be refuted, and it fulfills the prophecy.

Show me.

Josephus doesn't meet the criteria.
 
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Tzaousios

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Luke is describing events that are not consistent with the pre 70ad account of Josephus.

If you want to parallel Luke, do it with scripture.


If you have an objective event that cannot be refuted, and it fulfills the prophecy.

Show me.

Josephus doesn't meet the criteria.

Interesting. For one who trumpets "I only repeat what the Bible plainly says" it seems rather odd that you would ignore Luke when someone offers it.
 
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Shocker

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Interesting. For one who trumpets "I only repeat what the Bible plainly says" it seems rather odd that you would ignore Luke when someone offers it.

If he is misrepresenting scripture to back a secular account, then yes, his account of luke as a parallel to Josephus is not accurate.

The scripture he posted is from the Bible, there is nothing wrong with posting it.

But Josephus clearly doesn't fulfill it.
 
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J

Jerico Miles

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Again, that particular time of tribulation came and went within the lifetime of His own apostles to whom He is speaking here. They did not fall away, but kept the faith, endured, and reside in the Lord's rest until that coming day.

-CryptoLutheran


I'm curious. In reference to Luke, where does it say that happened in the past, in their lifetime? It's a serious question.
 
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sdowney717

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I think this mainly because the bible clearly states that no man will know the time or the hour/what time the rapture would happen. there for if it happened after the tribulation everyone would know the time, and also alot of people mistake the rapture for the second coming which i disagree, the rapture clearly states that jesus is in the sky not the ground, which means he never touchs earth, which would imply it is not the second coming.


(Sorry if you can not read this very well, i am not a grammer person!)

When you see what?
32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!

What is the 'it' Jesus is telling us about?
His returning.
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

We do not know day or hour, but Jesus tells us we can know the season, when He is nearer to returning else what Jesus says makes no sense.
We are told we wont know and it is not for anyone to know except God the day or the hour.

Paul also tells us we are not of the night or darkness that this day would take us unawares for we are all sons of Light.
1 thess 5
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.

For the world He returns as a thief, BUT for His people not as a thief. We are to WATCH and be sober and not let the Day of the LORD come upon us as a thief. Watch with expectation, look up for your redemption draws close, when you see the things He tells us about. His word includes Paul's teaching in 2 Thess 2.
 
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Tzaousios

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If he is misrepresenting scripture to back a secular account, then yes, his account of luke as a parallel to Josephus is not accurate.

The scripture he posted is from the Bible, there is nothing wrong with posting it.

But Josephus clearly doesn't fulfill it.

Comparing and paralleling Scriptural accounts with other historical interpretations is something that Biblical scholars do. It appears the only reason why you are rejecting Josephus out of hand is because your wooden literalism and opposition to anything associated with preterism or amillenialism requires you to do so.
 
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Shocker

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Comparing and paralleling Scriptural accounts with other historical interpretations is something that Biblical scholars do. It appears the only reason why you are rejecting Josephus out of hand is because your wooden literalism and opposition to anything associated with preterism or amillenialism requires you to do so.

That's rubbish.

I use the written works of Josephus as an account to testify to Christ's historical validity for secularists who want secular proof.



Josephus has a place, but documenting and verifying prophecy is not it.


Sorry.
 
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Tzaousios

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That's rubbish.

I use the written works of Josephus as an account to testify to Christ's historical validity for secularists who want secular proof.

Then why do you suddenly poo-poo it when it is offered by someone who has a different eschatological interpretation than you? That would seem to indicate that you merely reject it out of hand because you dislike their eschatology. Isn't that a bit hypocritical?

Josephus has a place, but documenting and verifying prophecy is not it.


Sorry.

Well, apparently it is not when an amillenialist or some kind of preterist does it. :D
 
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Shocker

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Then why do you suddenly poo-poo it when it is offered by someone who has a different eschatological interpretation than you? That would seem to indicate that you merely reject it out of hand because you dislike their eschatology. Isn't that a bit hypocritical?
Well, apparently it is not when an amillenialist or some kind of preterist does it. :D

Listen, don't be dense.

Josephus was a Jewish historian.

His accounts of 1st century events are amazing.

However, if you or any of the gooney squad wants to use his work as a validation of prophecy, then you are going to have to point me to what he said that even remotely comes close to what we are looking for in the fulfillment of certain prophecy.

Josephus gave us no dates, no prophetic events, nothing really. He never once stated that anything he bore witness to was prophetic.


If you want to use a secular source for prophetic confirmation, you need one that is unanimous in its acceptance and documentation, like the 2nd temple account.

Which we can objectively verify with our own eyes in Jerusalem.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I'm curious. In reference to Luke, where does it say that happened in the past, in their lifetime? It's a serious question.

Luke doesn't, because Luke's text presents things that will unfold in the lifetime of the apostles. The text isn't saying "This already happened", it's saying "This will happen to you". And it did.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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