I think mid rapture or pre raptuer will happen why?

ViaCrucis

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I didn't say Jesus said that has anything to do with their return. I said the fig tree is symbolic of Israel. So if you don't think the fig tree is Israel, than what is The Parable of the Fig Tree all about that Jesus spoke of?

You said,

Lemme get this straight. Jesus said in His discourse to His disciples that His return will occur at a time when the Jews return to their homeland as a nation symbolic of the Fig Tree, and you're saying that has been fulfilled 500 years before Jesus was born?

Is that what you're telling me?

I responded by saying that Jesus says nothing about the return of the Jews to the Land.

Jesus does not say that His return will "occur at a time when the Jews return to their homeland as a nation symbolic of the Fig Tree", Jesus says--using the fig tree as an example--that the signs of Jerusalem's destruction will be understood, when the season of that happening draws near, Jesus' followers should be able to know it, and respond as He said--to flee from the city. And historically that is exactly what happened, Eusebius recounts for us that the Christians of Jerusalem had received a vision, and thus fled to Perea of Pella (modern Jordan), thereby escaping the destruction and ruin that beset Jerusalem.

The example of the fig tree isn't about the Parousia, but about the events that unfold surrounding Jerusalem's destruction. The Parousia, Jesus says, comes without warning, suddenly. He says He comes at a time when no one expects, He compares it to the flood that caught the wicked unaware, it will be as though two were in a field and one will be taken and the other left. It will be as a thief in the night.

There are no signs by which to predict Christ's Parousia. When He comes, it will be suddenly, without warning, at a time we do not expect--and we are therefore called to vigilance. To hammer in that point Jesus gives two parables: The Parable of the Ten Virgins, and the Parable of the Talents. The first is exceedingly clear: Remain watchful, the Bridegroom comes at a time we do not know; the latter is also clear: Be mindful and faithful, for the Master can come at any time, how have we been while He was away?

We are called to be watchful, vigilant, faithful, and fruitful in this time between the Lord's ascension and His future Parousia, His appearing and coming in glory on the Last Day. There won't be signs to help us predict the timing of His coming, for He comes unexpectantly, without warning.

But that's the difference between Jesus talking about the destruction of Jerusalem--there will be signs, and it took place in 70 AD--and Jesus talking about His coming again on the Last Day--there will be no signs, therefore we are to be always watchful, faithful, and about the Master's work.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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We know for a fact the LORD shall sit upon the throne of His glory when He comes in His glory and that His (resurrected) Apostles will also sit upon thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.. in the regeneration.

It's stated as plain as day right in the gospel.

Men can't stand the truth though and willfully ignore the simple mystery pertaining to Israel and how they're blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in..

So simple and willfully ignored by massive portions of Christendom who have been deceived into believing the lie that the church is Israel.
 
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iamlamad

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In the following passage we are told to suffer tribulation up to the time when Christ shall come to be glorified in His saints.

That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels.

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Do I need to remind people what day, "in that day," refers to?


YOu can hint all you want that the church will have to go through the days of great tribulation, and you will be WRONG. What Day indeed!

Did you miss this one?

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Luke 6:23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

Luke 10:12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.

Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

2 Timothy 1:18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

These verses are all referring to THE END. But do they refer to the last 24 hour "DAY?" No, they refer to the Day of the Lord, which is an EXTENDED day, that will start with the worldwide earthquake at the 6th seal, and go on throughout the 70th week of Daniel, and finally to the very day Jesus returns on the white horse. But it will not stop there, but continue on throughout the millennial reign of Christ.

Paul makes it very clear that the Bride of Christ will NOT ENTER the Day of the Lord, but will be raptured before that Day begins. The rapture will be the TRIGGER for that Day.

I know, many think the Day of the Lord begins with His coming. They are mistaken.

LAMAD
 
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iamlamad

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Yes, these are things that have happened and been happening since the beginning of civilization and recorded history. I don't believe these are the signs that people were to look for concerning Jerusalem and the Temple's ruin.



And with that I disagree completely. The establishment of modern Israel and Palestine by the United Nations from the partition of the British Mandate of Palestine isn't prophetic. It was simply something that happened in recent history.

There is nothing significant about it. The prophecies concerning the Jewish return to the Land were fulfilled with Cyrus' decree when the Jews were allowed to return back to Judah following the Babylonian Captivity, returning from the Exile. The return of the Jews to the Land fulfilled those promises from God nearly five hundred years before Christ. They are not left unfulfilled, they have been fulfilled for the last 2500 years. All the prophecies of the pre-Exilic prophets concerning the Jewish return and retaking the land has been fulfilled with their return to the land following Cyrus' decree and the ending of the Captivity--the city and Temple rebuilt.

-CryptoLutheran

So something that has never happened before in the history of our planet is just some mundane, everyday occurrence? Dream on in your dream world!
A nation so totally destroyed as Israel was, and scatters to the 4 winds, then after almost 2000 years returns as a nation with the SAME LANGUAGE - that, my friend, is a miracle of God. Make no mistake, Israel becoming a nation again is a direct fulfillment of Ezekiel's valley of dry bones.

LAMAD
 
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ViaCrucis said in post 56:

The fig tree doesn't have anything to do with the return of the Jews to the Land.

Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9, Matthew 21:19,43), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

This doesn't require that the 2nd coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's 1st year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021 or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) immediately after the tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

--

The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43). The Israel that was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel that Jesus cursed at his first coming. For it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed forever by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel that was reestablished (by men) in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman-empire army.
 
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interpreter said in post 57:

I see that you cannot name one verse where Jesus talks about a rapture.

Note that Jesus does talk about the rapture, for it's the gathering together of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which he talks about in Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27, and John 14:3.

The English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea that no rapture will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming. For such an idea could be employed in our future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking that Jesus' 2nd coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the church to hold a meeting in the sky with him at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
 
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Jerico Miles

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You said,

I responded by saying that Jesus says nothing about the return of the Jews to the Land.

Jesus does not say that His return will "occur at a time when the Jews return to their homeland as a nation symbolic of the Fig Tree", Jesus says--using the fig tree as an example--that the signs of Jerusalem's destruction will be understood, when the season of that happening draws near, Jesus' followers should be able to know it, and respond as He said--to flee from the city. And historically that is exactly what happened, Eusebius recounts for us that the Christians of Jerusalem had received a vision, and thus fled to Perea of Pella (modern Jordan), thereby escaping the destruction and ruin that beset Jerusalem.

The example of the fig tree isn't about the Parousia, but about the events that unfold surrounding Jerusalem's destruction. The Parousia, Jesus says, comes without warning, suddenly. He says He comes at a time when no one expects, He compares it to the flood that caught the wicked unaware, it will be as though two were in a field and one will be taken and the other left. It will be as a thief in the night.

There are no signs by which to predict Christ's Parousia. When He comes, it will be suddenly, without warning, at a time we do not expect--and we are therefore called to vigilance. To hammer in that point Jesus gives two parables: The Parable of the Ten Virgins, and the Parable of the Talents. The first is exceedingly clear: Remain watchful, the Bridegroom comes at a time we do not know; the latter is also clear: Be mindful and faithful, for the Master can come at any time, how have we been while He was away?

We are called to be watchful, vigilant, faithful, and fruitful in this time between the Lord's ascension and His future Parousia, His appearing and coming in glory on the Last Day. There won't be signs to help us predict the timing of His coming, for He comes unexpectantly, without warning.

But that's the difference between Jesus talking about the destruction of Jerusalem--there will be signs, and it took place in 70 AD--and Jesus talking about His coming again on the Last Day--there will be no signs, therefore we are to be always watchful, faithful, and about the Master's work.

-CryptoLutheran

Ok so just to be sure of what you're telling me because this is different from what I've read and heard from other people.

I colored in red about the fig tree. So you're claiming the parable of the fig tree is about the destruction of Jerusalem back in 70 AD?

In purple is about the second coming. And here you're telling me there are no signs of His return but we are to remain watchful?

So what about things and events written in Revelation pertaining to His second coming like the Antichrist, Mark of the Beast, Abomination of Desolation, Mystery Babylon, a false prophect, etc? Wouldn't things like those be enough hints of His soon return?
 
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interpreter

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Note that Jesus does talk about the rapture, for it's the gathering together of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which he talks about in Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27, and John 14:3.

The English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea that no rapture will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming. For such an idea could be employed in our future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking that Jesus' 2nd coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the church to hold a meeting in the sky with him at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
Wrong. Mat. 24:30-31 was fulfilled in the 4th century when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow. And he sent his messengers with a trumpet and gathered the elect of all the Church together, to Nicea.
 
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ViaCrucis

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So what about things and events written in Revelation pertaining to His second coming like the Antichrist, Mark of the Beast, Abomination of Desolation, Mystery Babylon, a false prophect, etc? Wouldn't things like those be enough hints of His soon return?

If those were about the "end times", maybe.

But St. John of Patmos isn't writing about the end times, he's writing an apocalyptic letter to the seven churches in Asia who were, in that time, suffering persecution at the hands of Rome. The Revelation isn't about the end of the world, but is an apocalypse, an unveiling, of the antagonism between Rome and the Church, the Church facing Rome's oppressive power, a call to endure in faith in the midst of suffering in light of the victory of God in Jesus Christ, who will, most certainly, come again as Judge with a sword coming out of His mouth.

God's victory for His people in and through Christ is certain, even in the midst of suffering as the churches John writes to are suffering.

There isn't going to be a literal army of locusts swarming upon the earth at some future time. That's not what the Revelation is about. It's about the God who, in Christ, has won the victory, and no matter how the powers of this world may rage, no matter how vicious the dragon's anger might be, the victory belongs to our God. He who died, is now risen, having the keys to death and Hades is the Lamb seated upon the throne; and He will come again as Judge, and put to end the violence and machinations of the nations.

The Beast of the Apocalypse is Caesar, the scarlet beast Rome's imperial power and the harlot is herself Rome, the city on seven hills. The Beast's number is six hundred and sixty-six, a reference to Nero, who suffered a fatal wound but comes revived again to war against the Saints--that is, during the reign of Domitian the persecutions came back, as though Nero himself had come back from the dead.

When John is told to write concerning what must "shortly come to pass" it does not mean, "thousands of years from now", but really does mean what must shortly come to pass. John was told to write concerning the things that are and shortly coming. John writes about the times and events of his own time, of the context of his era, not about far flung "end times" events. The Revelation isn't a chronology of the future, but an apocalyptic unfolding of the things that are. Even as Daniel had written apocalyptically about the events surrounding the Maccabean era, concerning Antiochus, the Syrian Wars, and the abomination of that causes desolation--when an altar to Zeus was placed in the Holy of Holies and swine were offered as sacrifice upon it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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I suppose that's to be expected from Luther.. a Jew hater if there ever was one..

Let me get this straight. Instead of actually engaging in civilized discourse you feel it necessary to imply that because I'm Lutheran that I must be--as Luther was--a antisemitic bigot; all because I don't believe modern Israel is prophetically significant?

I want to thank you for demonstrating to me your unwillingness to actually engage in conversation without degenerating into slander, insult, and mouth-frothing vitriol.

But to humor you, I'm not Martin Luther, I don't have any ill feelings toward the Jewish people. I happen to have perfectly healthy relationships with my Jewish friends, and we are perfectly capable of having inter-religious conversations like civilized adults.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Let me get this straight. Instead of actually engaging in civilized discourse you feel it necessary to imply that because I'm Lutheran that I must be--as Luther was--a antisemitic bigot; all because I don't believe modern Israel is prophetically significant?

Not at all.. Just a simple observation on my part.. Whatever you read into it your business.

I want to thank you for demonstrating to me your unwillingness to actually engage in conversation without degenerating into slander, insult, and mouth-frothing vitriol.

If that's not the most hypocritical thing I've ever heard..

But to humor you, I'm not Martin Luther, I don't have any ill feelings toward the Jewish people. I happen to have perfectly healthy relationships with my Jewish friends, and we are perfectly capable of having inter-religious conversations like civilized adults.

-CryptoLutheran

As you continue to ignore the simple truth concerning Israel being blinded in part and remain wise in your own conceits.
 
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Jerico Miles

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What does that have to do with a rapture?

That's an event in the rapture. You asked me to give you a verse where Jesus spoke of the rapture. I gave you a whole parable.

During the rapture, the church get caught up to meet the Lord in heaven, get judged and receive our rewards, and partake in a big ole Jewish wedding feast.

Is that not what happens during the rapture?
 
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Jerico Miles

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If those were about the "end times", maybe.

But St. John of Patmos isn't writing about the end times, he's writing an apocalyptic letter to the seven churches in Asia who were, in that time, suffering persecution at the hands of Rome. The Revelation isn't about the end of the world, but is an apocalypse, an unveiling, of the antagonism between Rome and the Church, the Church facing Rome's oppressive power, a call to endure in faith in the midst of suffering in light of the victory of God in Jesus Christ, who will, most certainly, come again as Judge with a sword coming out of His mouth.

God's victory for His people in and through Christ is certain, even in the midst of suffering as the churches John writes to are suffering.

There isn't going to be a literal army of locusts swarming upon the earth at some future time. That's not what the Revelation is about. It's about the God who, in Christ, has won the victory, and no matter how the powers of this world may rage, no matter how vicious the dragon's anger might be, the victory belongs to our God. He who died, is now risen, having the keys to death and Hades is the Lamb seated upon the throne; and He will come again as Judge, and put to end the violence and machinations of the nations.

The Beast of the Apocalypse is Caesar, the scarlet beast Rome's imperial power and the harlot is herself Rome, the city on seven hills. The Beast's number is six hundred and sixty-six, a reference to Nero, who suffered a fatal wound but comes revived again to war against the Saints--that is, during the reign of Domitian the persecutions came back, as though Nero himself had come back from the dead.

When John is told to write concerning what must "shortly come to pass" it does not mean, "thousands of years from now", but really does mean what must shortly come to pass. John was told to write concerning the things that are and shortly coming. John writes about the times and events of his own time, of the context of his era, not about far flung "end times" events. The Revelation isn't a chronology of the future, but an apocalyptic unfolding of the things that are. Even as Daniel had written apocalyptically about the events surrounding the Maccabean era, concerning Antiochus, the Syrian Wars, and the abomination of that causes desolation--when an altar to Zeus was placed in the Holy of Holies and swine were offered as sacrifice upon it.

-CryptoLutheran

Ok, I think that's good enough information for everyone to discern where you stand with your perspective concerning bible prophecy.

I don't agree with it or encourage it but thanks for sharing your view.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Not at all.. Just a simple observation on my part.. Whatever you read into it your business.

Perhaps you could explain what you felt Martin Luther has to do with anything in this thread. The only connection Luther could have is the fact that I'm a Lutheran, and you clearly felt it desirous to impugn my character by my denominational association.

If that's not the most hypocritical thing I've ever heard..

Perhaps you could point me to one of my posts where I attacked another poster's character on here. If I have done so, by all means, address it. And I will happily apologize for any slander I've spread against another.

As you continue to ignore the simple truth concerning Israel being blinded in part and remain wise in your own conceits.

Our theological disagreements does not engender you to make claims about how I think or feel about the Jewish people. I have offered no indication that I hold ill will or negative feelings toward Jewish persons.

I also don't believe Canada is prophetically significant, but that doesn't mean I hate Canada, that I hate Canadians, or hold disdain for those of Canadian heritage.

I am perfectly capable of treating my Jewish neighbors with dignity, compassion, respect, and love without believing that a secular democratic state in the Levant is divinely ordained as a sign that the end of the world is just around the corner.

If you want to engage my theological and eschatological views, then do so. But don't engage in pointless ad hominem attacks and then pretend you didn't and that you were just "making an observation". You're not fooling anyone.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Perhaps you could explain what you felt Martin Luther has to do with anything in this thread. The only connection Luther could have is the fact that I'm a Lutheran, and you clearly felt it desirous to impugn my character by my denominational association.

If the shoe fits wear it Viacrucis, if not then don't.. do you believe that everything written is all about you alone?

Perhaps you could point me to one of my posts where I attacked another poster's character on here. If I have done so, by all means, address it. And I will happily apologize for any slander I've spread against another.

I know.. really, there's never anything but a nice friendly rant from you folks.. sorry Viacrucis.. I didn't realize it was all about you again.

Our theological disagreements does not engender you to make claims about how I think or feel about the Jewish people. I have offered no indication that I hold ill will or negative feelings toward Jewish persons.

I also don't believe Canada is prophetically significant, but that doesn't mean I hate Canada, that I hate Canadians, or hold disdain for those of Canadian heritage.

I am perfectly capable of treating my Jewish neighbors with dignity, compassion, respect, and love without believing that a secular democratic state in the Levant is divinely ordained as a sign that the end of the world is just around the corner.

If you want to engage my theological and eschatological views, then do so. But don't engage in pointless ad hominem attacks and then pretend you didn't and that you were just "making an observation". You're not fooling anyone.

-CryptoLutheran

Once again, if you feel this is all about you.. then sorry ViaCrucis.. I simply know that Israel shall be hated by all nations.. regardless if men can or can't see it.
 
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