The order of fossils in the geological column

[dad]

Not sure what you mean???

You said this..

"I'm pleading for the mechanism, not the time scale. "

Both have to fit the story of the flood and Noah. We know about when Abraham lived, and Noah. So all uplifting, or whatever has to be after that. How can you harmonize all that with science with our present laws?

 

[bhsmte]

You said this..

"I'm pleading for the mechanism, not the time scale. "

Both have to fit the story of the flood and Noah. We know about when Abraham lived, and Noah. So all uplifting, or whatever has to be after that. How can you harmonize all that with science with our present laws?

You can retro fit something to make the story work, can't you?

 

[dad]

You can retro fit something to make the story work, can't you?

I don't think so. If one wants to go merrily along accepting the same state past and our present laws, one cannot get continental separation, fast evolving, different thermodynamics, mountain building, ice age and etc etc in there in the time we have!

 

[Queller]

You have to understand that I don't believe there is anything 'natural' going on down here. My model of the flood is the way I (currently) think God might have arranged for it happen..

This makes no sense. If you don't believe there is anything "natural" going on AND you believe that some of the Biblical language describing the Flood is "poetic license" then why bother coming up with this impossible scenario to begin with?

Why not simply believe, as AV1611VET does, that God made everything about the Flood happen then cleaned up all the evidence afterwards?

 

[Queller]

You said this..

"I'm pleading for the mechanism, not the time scale. "

Both have to fit the story of the flood and Noah. We know about when Abraham lived, and Noah. So all uplifting, or whatever has to be after that. How can you harmonize all that with science with our present laws?

Exactly, you can't have the identical mechanism without the identical time scale.

I'm agreeing with dad now

Why is it so cold in here...

 

[Armoured]

You are projecting your model onto my model. My model has the ocean floors bulging gently across a wide area, not erupting violently (that's my model and I'm sticking to it).

Bulging gently across a wide area... in 40 days...

 

[Atheos canadensis]

I'm pleading for the mechanism, not the time scale. Also, the uplift of the plateau apart from the rest of the north American plate contradicts your position that the whole thing must rise or fall as one plate. I like the theory that a 'hot spot' was responsible for the uplift of the plateau. I plead for a larger hot spot under the ocean tailor-made to produce the flood.

Am I missing something here? From reading your posts I gather that you think the Flood was a gradual, gentle event. That doesn't really make sense for something that is supposed to purge the world of humanity. You envision the water rising like a tide and say that there was none of the chaotic forces commonly associated with the Flood. That doesn't sound like something that requires a specially built ark to survive. Basically any ship could be loaded with supplies and used to wait out the Flood. It seems strange that across the entire world all humanity perished despite the gradual, relatively calm nature of the Flood you envision.

 

[EternalDragon]

This is from a Tsunami in Japan. Not saying that this is how the flood went down as there is not much rain or breaking up of the foundations but does show slow, easy flooding. In biblical times a person would have needed a boat with enough supplies and able to sustain large waves. The ark was it as the instructions for building it came direct from God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37ydNsIg0b4

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Your model appears to be whatever you want it to be at any given time. It isn't falsifiable, and it is supported by nothing other than your imagination.

My model is a work in progress. I saw the movie "Noah" and was inspired by the large furnace on the movie ark to figger out how the ark was ventilated. Pretty clever of Hollywood (I had no idea).

What you really have is a long list of really lame excuses for rejecting the standard theory in geology

There are no anomalies in geology? It seems that every geology survey I peruse has unexplained gaps, that are filled with assumptions.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Am I missing something here? From reading your posts I gather that you think the Flood was a gradual, gentle event. That doesn't really make sense for something that is supposed to purge the world of humanity. You envision the water rising like a tide and say that there was none of the chaotic forces commonly associated with the Flood. That doesn't sound like something that requires a specially built ark to survive. Basically any ship could be loaded with supplies and used to wait out the Flood. It seems strange that across the entire world all humanity perished despite the gradual, relatively calm nature of the Flood you envision.

Why is a violent flood needed to drown everyone?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Bulging gently across a wide area... in 40 days...

150 days.

 

[Atheos canadensis]

Why is a violent flood needed to drown everyone?

Because the rather gentle, tide-like Flood you describe is unlikely to have killed every human on the planet (minus Noah's family) when any decent-sized boat could survive it. This guy went 1152 days at sea on a 70 foot schooner "without stopping and without being re-supplied with either food or fuel". So while the Ark would perhaps be necessary to store a bunch of animals and all their food, comparatively small ships would have been perfectly sufficient to survive the gentle Flood you describe. Given that fact, it seems highly improbable that only eight people in the entire world managed to survive.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

This makes no sense. If you don't believe there is anything "natural" going on AND you believe that some of the Biblical language describing the Flood is "poetic license" then why bother coming up with this impossible scenario to begin with?

Cast against the vast lifeless universe there is little, aside from the rocks, that is 'natural' here on earth (and I'm not so sure about the rocks). Science believes that everything is quite 'natural'. I don't, beginning with life itself.

I said poetic language, not poetic license.

Why not simply believe, as AV1611VET does, that God made everything about the Flood happen then cleaned up all the evidence afterwards?

I believe God used what he has made to effect the flood; he made the water, then caused it to drown mankind. He created trees and instructed Noah to build the ark from them, etc. He manipulates his creation according to his will.

Regarding the evidence, I believe it's all here waiting for science to discover once they get the right flood into their heads.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Because the rather gentle, tide-like Flood you describe is unlikely to have killed every human on the planet (minus Noah's family) when any decent-sized boat could survive it. This guy went 10152 days at sea on a 70 foot schooner "without stopping and without being re-supplied with either food or fuel". So while the Ark would perhaps be necessary to store a bunch of animals and all their food, comparatively small ships would have been perfectly sufficient to survive the gentle Flood you describe. Given that fact, it seems highly improbable that only eight people in the entire world managed to survive.

If people knew a year-long flood was coming some may have been prepared, but they didn't know.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

This is from a Tsunami in Japan. Not saying that this is how the flood went down as there is not much rain or breaking up of the foundations but does show slow, easy flooding. In biblical times a person would have needed a boat with enough supplies and able to sustain large waves. The ark was it as the instructions for building it came direct from God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37ydNsIg0b4

Actually this is how I envision the flood coming in.

Morecambe Bay - The Killer Tide - YouTube

 

[Atheos canadensis]

If people knew a year-long flood was coming some may have been prepared, but they didn't know.

So nowhere else in the world were there any seafarers going about their regular business of sailing around with loads of trade goods and supplies? It seems unlikely that no one in the entire world had a ship already loaded for regular reasons unrelated to the Flood.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So nowhere else in the world were there any seafarers going about their regular business of sailing around with loads of trade goods and supplies? It seems unlikely that no one in the entire world had a ship already loaded for regular reasons unrelated to the Flood.

If so it would be unlikely they were prepared for a year long voyage. You can't eat trade goods. Also, with all that rain they would probably be in port. I also don't think they would be boarding ships that were being washed inland. I think there would be mass chaos and confusion at that point.

Anyway they all drowned, according to the story.

 

[Armoured]

So nowhere else in the world were there any seafarers going about their regular business of sailing around with loads of trade goods and supplies? It seems unlikely that no one in the entire world had a ship already loaded for regular reasons unrelated to the Flood.

In fairness, at that time, shipping was IIRC limited to small coastal traders. None of the contemporary ships would have been large enough to carry consumables enough for the crew to survive a year afloat. Most wouldn't have survived the open ocean conditions that a global flood implies, either. We're not talking the MV Maersk or the USS Constellation here.

Of course, this doesn't remotely address the bazillion other difficulties with the ark story, but "why was there no other shipping to survive" does seem to have a reasonable answer, in the greater context of the story.

 

[janxharris]

Of course, this doesn't remotely address the bazillion other difficulties with the ark story,

There is no verse in scripture that questions the veracity of the ark story.

 

[EternalDragon]

So nowhere else in the world were there any seafarers going about their regular business of sailing around with loads of trade goods and supplies? It seems unlikely that no one in the entire world had a ship already loaded for regular reasons unrelated to the Flood.

Do you not realize that the Ark was not designed to "sail"? It was designed to withstand huge waves and not capsize. It was designed to float only. Any other vessel would have went down.

Why would a historical narrative have a boat designed to engineer specifics to be able to withstand a flood and huge waves if it was just a myth? Lucky coincidence?