Since we are not under the law, why do we still Tithe?

[SAAN]

Tithing is part of the OT law that was abolished!!!

We say we tithe because Abraham tithed, why did he tithe when there was no command to do so?

-Abraham tithes to the high priest, and there is no high priest any longer.
-Tithes were for the levitical priesthood only.
-Tithing was always food, NOT money and they had money back then.
-Even Malachi shows it was food.

We cannot rewrite a law of God and flip it to suit our needs and try to make others feel guilty about tithing when it was a OT law that was abolished and was referring to food.


We are now to be giving freewill offerings of any amount that God places on your heart whether it is 5, 10, or 20%. God loves a cheerful giver, so give what God places on your heart and he will bless you.

10% can be a good starting point, but it is NOT a mandatory starting point and you are NOT robbing God if your offering is not a minimum 10% of your income. Stop letting these preachers pimp you.

You are only robbing God if you can give and choose to give nothing at all and keep it all to yourself.

 

[LarryP2]

Tithing is part of the OT law that was abolished!!!

We say we tithe because Abraham tithed, why did he tithe when there was no command to do so?

-Abraham tithes to the high priest, and there is no high priest any longer.
-Tithes were for the levitical priesthood only.
-Tithing was always food, NOT money and they had money back then.
-Even Malachi shows it was food.

We cannot rewrite a law of God and flip it to suit our needs and try to make others feel guilty about tithing when it was a OT law that was abolished and was referring to food.


We are now to be giving freewill offerings of any amount that God places on your heart whether it is 5, 10, or 20%. God loves a cheerful giver, so give what God places on your heart and he will bless you.

10% can be a good starting point, but it is NOT a mandatory starting point and you are NOT robbing God if your offering is not a minimum 10% of your income. Stop letting these preachers pimp you.

You are only robbing God if you can give and choose to give nothing at all and keep it all to yourself.

You pay 10 percent tithe ONLY because the scripture sculpting pimps demand that much for the "privilege" of enslaving you with their deceitful Old Covenant Sabbath trash . It's kind of like the Mafia and their "Protection Rackets," only with the Bible, instead of a machine gun. You get nothing for your money except for more anxiety and fear than you had to begin with.

With their deceitful Sabbath trash, they scare you to death by convincing you that the Cross was only a partial atonement, and you have to "finish" it with perfect Sabbath Keeping for your salvation. For a reasonable monthly fee, of course, for their assistance. We also take Visa and Mastercharge and will also accept partial weekly payments. With a small and affordable interest fee, of course. Not to mention Thousands of dollars paid to the loan-sharky book thief, Ellen White, to re-buy the books that she stole fair and square.

That's why the early Church Fathers UNANIMOUSLY denounced this Sabbath Keeping garbage as an evil satanic snare that is totally contradictory to the Resurrection and the rest and freedom it gives in Christ. The hucksters and jive pimps that tried to enslave Christians with their Sabbath-Keeping-Scripture-sculpting garbage were trounced, denounced and vigorously-excommunicated by the First Century Church Fathers.

There is no compatibility between Christianity and the jive-talking Sabbath trash Scripture Sculptors

 

[from scratch]

Tithing is part of the OT law that was abolished!!!

We say we tithe because Abraham tithed, why did he tithe when there was no command to do so?

-Abraham tithes to the high priest, and there is no high priest any longer.
-Tithes were for the levitical priesthood only.
-Tithing was always food, NOT money and they had money back then.
-Even Malachi shows it was food.

We cannot rewrite a law of God and flip it to suit our needs and try to make others feel guilty about tithing when it was a OT law that was abolished and was referring to food.


We are now to be giving freewill offerings of any amount that God places on your heart whether it is 5, 10, or 20%. God loves a cheerful giver, so give what God places on your heart and he will bless you.

10% can be a good starting point, but it is NOT a mandatory starting point and you are NOT robbing God if your offering is not a minimum 10% of your income. Stop letting these preachers pimp you.

You are only robbing God if you can give and choose to give nothing at all and keep it all to yourself.

One o' da biggest law scams promoted by all organized religion post cross. They preach some king of grace and demand the law to be practiced.

 

[from scratch]

You pay 10 percent tithe ONLY because the scripture sculpting pimps demand that much for the "privilege" of enslaving you with their deceitful Old Covenant Sabbath trash . It's kind of like the Mafia and their "Protection Rackets," only with the Bible, instead of a machine gun. You get nothing for your money except for more anxiety and fear than you had to begin with.

With their deceitful Sabbath trash, they scare you to death by convincing you that the Cross was only a partial atonement, and you have to "finish" it with perfect Sabbath Keeping for your salvation. For a reasonable monthly fee, of course, for their assistance. We also take Visa and Mastercharge and will also accept partial weekly payments. With a small and affordable interest fee, of course. Not to mention Thousands of dollars paid to the loan-sharky book thief, Ellen White, to re-buy the books that she stole fair and square.

That's why the early Church Fathers UNANIMOUSLY denounced this Sabbath Keeping garbage as an evil satanic snare that is totally contradictory to the Resurrection and the rest and freedom it gives in Christ. The hucksters and jive pimps that tried to enslave Christians with their Sabbath-Keeping-Scripture-sculpting garbage were trounced, denounced and vigorously-excommunicated by the First Century Church Fathers.

There is no compatibility between Christianity and the jive-talking Sabbath trash Scripture Sculptors

The really sad thing here is it isn't just them.

 

[Elder 111]

Tithing is part of the OT law that was abolished!!!

We say we tithe because Abraham tithed, why did he tithe when there was no command to do so?

-Abraham tithes to the high priest, and there is no high priest any longer.
-Tithes were for the levitical priesthood only.
-Tithing was always food, NOT money and they had money back then.
-Even Malachi shows it was food.

We cannot rewrite a law of God and flip it to suit our needs and try to make others feel guilty about tithing when it was a OT law that was abolished and was referring to food.


We are now to be giving freewill offerings of any amount that God places on your heart whether it is 5, 10, or 20%. God loves a cheerful giver, so give what God places on your heart and he will bless you.

10% can be a good starting point, but it is NOT a mandatory starting point and you are NOT robbing God if your offering is not a minimum 10% of your income. Stop letting these preachers pimp you.

You are only robbing God if you can give and choose to give nothing at all and keep it all to yourself.

The problem is not the tithe paying!
Mat 23: 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
The laws that are said to be abolished are not, nor tithing. All ten commandments are valid including the forth.

 

[LarryP2]

The problem is not the tithe paying!
Mat 23: 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
The laws that are said to be abolished are not, nor tithing. All ten commandments are valid including the forth.

Nonsense! The Ten commandments NEVER, EVER applied to the Gentiles. In fact, any Gentile that tried was subject to the Death Penalty, and death by stoning. Are you a Jew? No? Then only the 7 Noahide commandments applied to you. And especially after the AD 50 Council of Jerusalem removed all ambiguity: The Gentile Christians of Antioch were subject to just 4 of the Noahide laws.

From the beginnings of Christianity, Sabbath Keeping was denounced and excommunicated as an anti-Christian, satanic heresy. Christianity and Sabbath Keeping are oil and water, they do not mix.

Friends don't let friends read Ellen White while drunk.

SAAN, here is a great quote from an article you really should read, that describes the entire thieving mess driving the Sabbath pimps to work harder peddling their trash:

"The premise that Colossians 2:14-17 does not mean what it says has been worth billions and billions of dollars to the Seventh-day Adventist Church. It has created a membership of over 12 million people who give, in most cases, 10% of their hard-earned money to the Church, supporting a huge network of schools, churches, publishing houses, and a huge top-heavy church bureaucracy of state conference, union conference, division, and General Conference officials whose salaries must be paid every month."
.....
"Unless someone can explain it away, Adventists are in direct disobedience to the command of God, given through Paul, that Sabbath-keeping not be required of Christians any more than they are required to observe the Jewish dietary laws and annual sabbaths. Billions of dollars depend on the truth that Colossians 2:14-17 does not mean this, yet no one has ever been able to prove that this passage does not mean what it says. Adventist leaders have known the facts about this text and a host of other anti-Sabbatarian facts since 1888. Tragically, Adventist leaders have continued to "sell" their faulty and dangerous "other gospel" belief package to its members in exchange for 10% and more of their hard-earned money."
http://www.bible.ca/7-sabbathgate-1888ad-Kerry-Wynne.htm

 

[SAAN]

The problem is not the tithe paying!
Mat 23: 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
The laws that are said to be abolished are not, nor tithing. All ten commandments are valid including the forth.

In Matt23, Jesus is still alive and did not die yet, so they were still under the law, so they were supposed to be tithing, but even in that verse he is talking about food.

So if tithing is not abolished, what store front do you give 10% of your animals to?

Who is the high priest you tithe to?

WHere is the Levitical priesthood, you tithe to based out of?

Where did God say, you can change his laws on tithing and substitute animals for cash and make it a different command?

 

[Elder 111]

In Matt23, Jesus is still alive and did not die yet, so they were still under the law, so they were supposed to be tithing, but even in that verse he is talking about food.

So if tithing is not abolished, what store front do you give 10% of your animals to?

Who is the high priest you tithe to?

WHere is the Levitical priesthood, you tithe to based out of?

Where did God say, you can change his laws on tithing and substitute animals for cash and make it a different command?

Christ's did not change tithing nor the ten commandments. If so tell me now that as a christian it is Ok to lie steal and kill. If not shut-up on that score.
Tithing was on the increase, profit, on food cash or otherwise.
The tithe was not for the high priest only but for all the tribe of Levi. All who work in the Gospel. The problem is not the tithe but the wicked and money love pastors. The tithe is not for buying planes and cars, houses and lands but for all workers in the church and the poor and needy.
The tithe is God given for the support of His work.
God gave His life, a few dollars is too much to return to saving others?

 

[LarryP2]

Christ's did not change tithing nor the ten commandments. If so tell me now that as a christian it is Ok to lie steal and kill. If not shut-up on that score.

I have debunked this deceitful, slanderous and trashy smear at:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7819291/

When Seventh Day Adventism's repeat the trashy and utterly dishonest smear that, without the Ten Commandments, Christians would believe it is "Ok to lie steal and kill" they are mindlessly parroting a massive deliberate hoax of Ellen G. White's. It is one of the biggest religious frauds in history. As I prove in the above thread, this incredibly deceitful fraud is based on a deliberate decision of White's not to mention the Noahide laws that were given to Noah in the aftermath of the flood.

It turns out that Ellen White really is the only one that believes it "is OK to lie and steal." She didn't just believe it, she LIVED it! Christians under the Grace of Jesus Christ and St. Paul's abolition of the entire Mosaic law have never believed that it was okay to do those things. They are repeatedly denounced in Paul's Epistles. For Adventists to insinuate that that Christians believe it is okay to "murder lie and Steal" is a horrific ugly, and utterly-dishonest smear. That this blatantly anti-Christianity smear campaign is allowed on a Christian website is just beyond belief.

 

[SAAN]

Christ's did not change tithing nor the ten commandments. If so tell me now that as a christian it is Ok to lie steal and kill. If not shut-up on that score.
Tithing was on the increase, profit, on food cash or otherwise.
The tithe was not for the high priest only but for all the tribe of Levi. All who work in the Gospel. The problem is not the tithe but the wicked and money love pastors. The tithe is not for buying planes and cars, houses and lands but for all workers in the church and the poor and needy.
The tithe is God given for the support of His work.
God gave His life, a few dollars is too much to return to saving others?

Im all for a free will offering to support the church, the needy, and the poor. But lets be real and call it what it is, a free will offering with a cheerful heart. Tithe was food, so we cant change that command around and magically say its money now.

The problem with getting offerings now, is if your a truthful about giving, no one will give, so we get what we have now in preachers taking scriptures out of context to almost extort money out of people or like you mentioned, funds houses, cars, and planes.

 

[LarryP2]

Im all for a free will offering to support the church, the needy, and the poor. But lets be real and call it what it is, a free will offering with a cheerful heart. Tithe was food, so we cant change that command around and magically say its money now.

The problem with getting offerings now, is if your a truthful about giving, no one will give, so we get what we have now in preachers taking scriptures out of context to almost extort money out of people or like you mentioned, funds houses, cars, and planes.

Once again, this is yet another subject that demonstrates Seventh Day Adventism's utterly devious and fraudulent false prophet. Guess what? She taught that everyone but HERSELF should pay Tithe!


Here is the standard set for the average deluded Adventist believer:

"Let none feel at liberty to retain their tithe, to use according to their own judgment. They are not to use it for themselves in an emergency, nor to apply it as they see fit, even in what they may regard as the Lord's work." (Testimonies Vol. 9, p. 247)

Well, NONE apparently meant everyone but HER:

"It had been presented to me for years that my tithe was to be appropriated by myself....."
......
"I have myself appropriated my tithe....."
.....
"And if any person shall say to me, Sister White, will you appropriate my tithe where you know it is most needed, I shall say, Yes, I will; and I have done so. I commend those sisters who have placed their tithe where it is most needed to help to do a work that is being left undone."

Ellen White on Tithe

Shouldn't Adventists demonstrate a bit more shame and humility? Given their foundation in easily demonstrated willful fraud and lies, you would think they would approach any doctrinal discussion out of an abundance of caution.

 

[branchofthevine]

so, aside from the harshness here, it would actually be beneficial to take a look at verses within the law talking about tithing.

There seem to be five chapters (Leviticus 27, Numbers 18, Deuteronomy 12, 14, 26) that talk about tithing as a law. I'm just going to list them and then make some general comments on the passages.

Leviticus 27:30-34
30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord’s. It is holy to the Lord. 31 If a man wants at all to redeem any of his tithes, he shall add one-fifth to it. 32 And concerning the tithe of the herd or the flock, of whatever passes under the rod, the tenth one shall be holy to the Lord. 33 He shall not inquire whether it is good or bad, nor shall he exchange it; and if he exchanges it at all, then both it and the one exchanged for it shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.’” 34 These are the commandments which the Lord commanded Moses for the children of Israel on Mount Sinai.

Numbers 18:21-32
21 “Behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tithes in Israel as an inheritance in return for the work which they perform, the work of the tabernacle of meeting. 22 Hereafter the children of Israel shall not come near the tabernacle of meeting, lest they bear sin and die. 23 But the Levites shall perform the work of the tabernacle of meeting, and they shall bear their iniquity; it shall be a statute forever, throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance. 24 For the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer up as a heave offering to the Lord, I have given to the Levites as an inheritance; therefore I have said to them, ‘Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.’” 25 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 26 “Speak thus to the Levites, and say to them: ‘When you take from the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them as your inheritance, then you shall offer up a heave offering of it to the Lord, a tenth of the tithe. 27 And your heave offering shall be reckoned to you as though it were the grain of the threshing floor and as the fullness of the winepress. 28 Thus you shall also offer a heave offering to the Lord from all your tithes which you receive from the children of Israel, and you shall give the Lord’s heave offering from it to Aaron the priest. 29 Of all your gifts you shall offer up every heave offering due to the Lord, from all the best of them, the consecrated part of them.’ 30 Therefore you shall say to them: ‘When you have lifted up the best of it, then the rest shall be accounted to the Levites as the produce of the threshing floor and as the produce of the winepress. 31 You may eat it in any place, you and your households, for it is your reward for your work in the tabernacle of meeting. 32 And you shall bear no sin because of it, when you have lifted up the best of it. But you shall not profane the holy gifts of the children of Israel, lest you die.’”

Deuteronomy 12:5-14
5 “But you shall seek the place where the Lord your God chooses, out of all your tribes, to put His name for His dwelling place; and there you shall go. 6 There you shall take your burnt offerings, your sacrifices, your tithes, the heave offerings of your hand, your vowed offerings, your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks. 7 And there you shall eat before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice in all to which you have put your hand, you and your households, in which the Lord your God has blessed you.
8 “You shall not at all do as we are doing here today—every man doing whatever is right in his own eyes— 9 for as yet you have not come to the rest and the inheritance which the Lord your God is giving you. 10 But when you cross over the Jordan and dwell in the land which the Lord your God is giving you to inherit, and He gives you rest from all your enemies round about, so that you dwell in safety, 11 then there will be the place where the Lord your God chooses to make His name abide. There you shall bring all that I command you: your burnt offerings, your sacrifices, your tithes, the heave offerings of your hand, and all your choice offerings which you vow to the Lord. 12 And you shall rejoice before the Lord your God, you and your sons and your daughters, your male and female servants, and the Levite who is within your gates, since he has no portion nor inheritance with you. 13 Take heed to yourself that you do not offer your burnt offerings in every place that you see; 14 but in the place which the Lord chooses, in one of your tribes, there you shall offer your burnt offerings, and there you shall do all that I command you.


Deuteronomy 14:22-29


22 “You shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year. 23 And you shall eat before the Lord your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always. 24 But if the journey is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, or if the place where the Lord your God chooses to put His name is too far from you, when the Lord your God has blessed you, 25 then you shall exchange it for money, take the money in your hand, and go to the place which the Lord your God chooses. 26 And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household. 27 You shall not forsake the Levite who is within your gates, for he has no part nor inheritance with you.
28 “At the end of every third year you shall bring out the tithe of your produce of that year and store it up within your gates. 29 And the Levite, because he has no portion nor inheritance with you, and the stranger and the fatherless and the widow who are within your gates, may come and eat and be satisfied, that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.


Deuteronomy 26: 1-15

“And it shall be, when you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, and you possess it and dwell in it, 2 that you shall take some of the first of all the produce of the ground, which you shall bring from your land that the Lord your God is giving you, and put it in a basket and go to the place where the Lord your God chooses to make His name abide. 3 And you shall go to the one who is priest in those days, and say to him, ‘I declare today to the Lord your[a] God that I have come to the country which the Lord swore to our fathers to give us.’
4 “Then the priest shall take the basket out of your hand and set it down before the altar of the Lord your God. 5 And you shall answer and say before the Lord your God: ‘My father was a Syrian,[b] about to perish, and he went down to Egypt and dwelt there, few in number; and there he became a nation, great, mighty, and populous. 6 But the Egyptians mistreated us, afflicted us, and laid hard bondage on us. 7 Then we cried out to the Lord God of our fathers, and the Lord heard our voice and looked on our affliction and our labor and our oppression. 8 So the Lord brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm, with great terror and with signs and wonders. 9 He has brought us to this place and has given us this land, “a land flowing with milk and honey”;[c] 10 and now, behold, I have brought the firstfruits of the land which you, O Lord, have given me.’
“Then you shall set it before the Lord your God, and worship before the Lord your God. 11 So you shall rejoice in every good thing which the Lord your God has given to you and your house, you and the Levite and the stranger who is among you.
12 “When you have finished laying aside all the tithe of your increase in the third year—the year of tithing—and have given it to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, so that they may eat within your gates and be filled, 13 then you shall say before the Lord your God: ‘I have removed the holy tithe from my house, and also have given them to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, according to all Your commandments which You have commanded me; I have not transgressed Your commandments, nor have I forgotten them. 14 I have not eaten any of it when in mourning, nor have I removed any of it for an unclean use, nor given any of it for the dead. I have obeyed the voice of the Lord my God, and have done according to all that You have commanded me. 15 Look down from Your holy habitation, from heaven, and bless Your people Israel and the land which You have given us, just as You swore to our fathers, “a land flowing with milk and honey.”’[d]




So, a few comments: First, notice the emphasis on the food aspect of the Tithe, bringing it from the field, from the cattle, or wine press, but then notice in Deut 14 that you can exchange it for money if you live too far away, but then when you come to wherever it is you are to tithe, you buy as much food, and alcohol and drink as you want.


That brings to the next obvious point, the eating of the tithe. Especially in Deuteronomy the focus is on feasting on the tithe. Buying all you want and feasting with joy. Even if you had previously exchanged the tithe for the money, you use that to buy more food.

Then there is the levitical aspect of it where the tithe is used to supply the Priests. Notice in Numbers that it is mostly food because the Priests have no inheritance of land within Israel.

Then there is the third year tithing rule where the tithe is placed at the City gate to feed the poor and disenfranchised.



There is the Temple/Tabernacle focus of the Tithe, it is to be given there, and not offered anywhere else. It is also tied in with other offerings and sacrifices.

Notice the point that the tithe is for the Israelites. In Leviticus it was a law commanded by Moses on Mount Sinai to the children of Israel, and it is commanded along with other laws that apply only to Israel.



So, when talking about the tithe, these passages explain what it means. When using the word tithe, you are referring to this practice, and not something else. When it is talked about elsewhere in the Bible it is referring to this. This point may seem obvious but many times the disparity between the words we use and the meaning we are ascribing to those words is too vast in comparison to how the words are used in Scripture.

If you argue for the tithe to be necessary to the Christian, you are saying this form of the tithe is necessary, as it is stated in Scripture, and not a made up version of it that doesn't have any basis in Scripture.

 

[LarryP2]

so, aside from the harshness here, it would actually be beneficial to take a look at verses within the law talking about tithing.

You seem to be a decent sort of guy and I appreciate your scriptural exposition. I agree with your position. However, if you think any of that is going to convince a Seventh Day Adventist that their Tithe doctrine is unbiblical, you obviously do not understand who and what you are dealing with. First and foremost, their one and only inerrant and infallible authority is Ellen White. White said Tithe was necessary for modern Christians. Ipso facto, Tithe is a prominent doctrine of Adventists. What the Bible or Church history says is completely irrelevant to the Adventist thinking on the subject.

What makes you think she or they CARE about what the Bible says, or what the context of the Tithe doctrine was?

Notice the point that the tithe is for the Israelites. In Leviticus it was a law commanded by Moses on Mount Sinai to the children of Israel, and it is commanded along with other laws that apply only to Israel.

That a commandment is specifically "for the Israelites" means absolutely NOTHING to Adventists, if Ellen White commanded to the contrary. Nor does it matter what the verifiable practice of First- and second-history Christians was. Only Ellen White is the undisputed, infallible and inerrant authority, even when her statements are easily proven to be outright lies.

She wins every doctrinal argument automatically.

So, when talking about the tithe, these passages explain what it means. When using the word tithe, you are referring to this practice, and not something else. When it is talked about elsewhere in the Bible it is referring to this. This point may seem obvious but many times the disparity between the words we use and the meaning we are ascribing to those words is too vast in comparison to how the words are used in Scripture.

It doesn't really matter whether or not the Bible declares that Tithing was to be in the form of food. Ellen White said differently. Do you now understand how to analyze Seventh Day Adventist doctrine?

If you argue for the tithe to be necessary to the Christian, you are saying this form of the tithe is necessary, as it is stated in Scripture, and not a made up version of it that doesn't have any basis in Scripture.

"Made up version of doctrines with no basis in Scripture" is what Adventists do!!!!. Ironically, you have unintentionally, yet accurately defined their basic approach to the Scriptures. They are "scripture sculptors," knitting together a sentence fragment here, a partial verse there, and out-of-context word here. Tied together with White's "visions." They can make the Bible say the most amazingly-unbiblical things!

"Harshness?" White declared that all Catholics worship "The harlot of Babylon" and all Protestants that worship on Sunday belong heart and soul to the "Apostate Daughters of the harlot of Babylon." She declared that all protestant ministers who disagreed with her that Jesus was coming back in 1844 were vile servants of Satan, whose prayers were not heard by God, but directly by Satan. She declared that if you go to Church on Sunday, you are fully-enslaved to Satan and would one day join to hunt down and murder all Adventists. That you are forevermore completely lost, and so too was anyone belonging to a non-Adventist church. That her main book ("The Great Controversy" as been investigated as a Hate Crime in Canada, because of the extraordinarily deceitful and despicably-hateful, stomach-churning way it portrays Roman Catholicism.

http://spectrummagazine.org/blog/2011/08/26/will-great-controversy-project-harm-adventism

An Adventist smeared a Catholic with "your church is the girl friend of the devil, licking blood where ever she goes,"

http://blog.theotokos.co.za/?p=599

Maybe you might want to rethink the "harshness" statement?

 

[branchofthevine]

Larry! I don't try to convince people. I've found that to be mostly impossible.

I know that there are many who can be very harsh, but that doesn't mean we should become like them. The way we respond is (to me) just as important as how we respond. Many people just read and never learn, or consider different opinions, but perhaps seeds of thoughts and ideas are planted within them, and will affect them later. It just seems better to try and not call them out because they will just lash back, but if they say they believe the Bible in any capacity, surely the Scripture will change them or condemn them.

 

[LarryP2]

...... if they say they believe the Bible in any capacity, surely the Scripture will change them or condemn them.

I grew up in that church. Left at age 22. Went through 12 years of their school system. What you are saying could not be more untrue. They believe only what Ellen G. White said about the Bible. Trust me on this: White wrote many hundreds of thousands of pages of books, and we studied her writings daily in school, yet somehow I never knew that the Resurrection was an important doctrine in the Bible for more than 30 years after I left the Church. How could anyone possibly read the Bible and not come away with the impression that the Resurrection is its central point?

Believe it or not: Ellen White stated that Daniel 8:14 was the foundational verse of the church and by far the most important verse in the Bible:

"The scripture which above all others had been both the foundation and the central pillar of the advent faith, was the declaration, 'Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.'" (quoting Daniel 8:14)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investigative_judgment

That this clearly heretical, blatantly unbiblical and anti-Christian doctrine is allowed to be disseminated on a Christian website is just absolutely mind-boggling. The horrifying, stomach-churning anti-Christian bent of that statement is shown here:

"As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance.
.....
"While Jesus is pleading for the subjects of His grace, Satan accuses them before God as transgressors. The great deceiver has sought to lead them into skepticism, to cause them to lose confidence in God, to separate themselves from His love, and to break His law. Now he points to the record of their lives, to the defects of character, the unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer, to all the sins that he has tempted them to commit, and because of these he claims them as his subjects."

The Great Controversy, Chapter 28, by Ellen G. White. http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc28.html

That this is an anti-Christian, anti-Gospel, heretical, cult Salvation-by-works system could not be clearer. It could not be any more blatantly at odds with the New Testament and the finished work on the Cross. It is clear your good works give Christ the only argument he has against the determined prosecuting attorney: Satan (!!!!).Christ never finished ANY work of Salvation on the cross: Now Christ is fighting a grueling courtroom battle against Satan, as each person's deeds and misdeeds are argued as evidence for or against the possibility of their Salvation. Christ's work wasn't finished on the Cross, it continues to this day, for the last 150 years in the Heavenly Courtroom. And you must do your part with perfect Sabbath Keeping, to give Christ a paper-thin margin of victory over Satan.

Can someone please explain to me what this has to do with the Gospel that Christianity is founded upon?

 

[Elder 111]

I have debunked this deceitful, slanderous and trashy smear at:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7819291/

When Seventh Day Adventism's repeat the trashy and utterly dishonest smear that, without the Ten Commandments, Christians would believe it is "Ok to lie steal and kill" they are mindlessly parroting a massive deliberate hoax of Ellen G. White's. It is one of the biggest religious frauds in history. As I prove in the above thread, this incredibly deceitful fraud is based on a deliberate decision of White's not to mention the Noahide laws that were given to Noah in the aftermath of the flood.

It turns out that Ellen White really is the only one that believes it "is OK to lie and steal." She didn't just believe it, she LIVED it! Christians under the Grace of Jesus Christ and St. Paul's abolition of the entire Mosaic law have never believed that it was okay to do those things. They are repeatedly denounced in Paul's Epistles. For Adventists to insinuate that that Christians believe it is okay to "murder lie and Steal" is a horrific ugly, and utterly-dishonest smear. That this blatantly anti-Christianity smear campaign is allowed on a Christian website is just beyond belief.

Your point is baseless.
Firstly Ellen white never argued for violation of God's law.
Secondly once we as christian realize that we should not steal lie or kill etc., we confirm that the ten Commandments are still binding. Can't have it both ways brother, one or the other.

 

[LarryP2]

Your point is baseless.
Firstly Ellen white never argued for violation of God's law.

She certainly led by example, though. Her incredibly-massive, jaw-dropping literary thefts and her repeated calculated lies demonstrate her open, willful and savage contempt for God's Law. Then she had the unmitigated gall to deceitfully smear Christians, living under Grace and not under the Law pursuant to the clear teachings of the Apostle Paul, of abandoning the Ten Commandments to justify an immoral lifestyle! What an incredibly evil and sick woman she was! EVERYTHING that Christians need as far as do's and don't is contained in the Epistles. It is just an unimaginably grotesque fraud to suggest that Christians desire to kill, steal and lie because the Ten Commandments were "nailed to the Cross." ALL of those behaviors are strongly and unequivocally-denounced in the Epistles! To suggest otherwise - that only the Ten Commandments prohibit those things - is incredibly dishonest to the text of the Epistles. Sabbath Keeping was rejected by Christians and condemned as a Satanic, anti-Christian heresy by ALL of the First and Second Century Christian Fathers.

Secondly once we as christian realize that we should not steal lie or kill etc., we confirm that the ten Commandments are still binding. Can't have it both ways brother, one or the other.

WRONG! Those behaviors were strongly prohibited many hundreds of years before the Ten Commandments, and were AGAIN strongly and unequivocally condemned by St. Paul in the Epistles. Your statement otherwise is just incredibly deceitful. White, in stealing most of Patriarchs and Prophets from Edersheim, knew good and well that a very advanced legal system was already in place when God handed down the Noahide Commandments, that predated the Ten Commandments by many hundreds of years. She deliberately lied through her teeth by not telling Adventists about the existence of those commandments and the advanced legal system that was set up to enforce those Commandments from God. White did so only to enslave gullible Adventists in her heretical anti-Christian Salvation by Works ("salvation by perfect Sabbath Keeping") scheme. The Mosaic law flatly-prohibited Gentiles from following the Mosaic law, on penalty of Death! Including most-importantly Sabbath Keeping! And that prohibition against Gentile Sabbath Keeping was overwhelmingly confirmed in the AD 50 Council of Jerusalem decree found in Acts 15.

That you come onto a Christian website and blatantly smear Christians with the incredibly-ugly and vicious falsehood that they wish to live immoral lives ("steal, kill, and lie"), and that is their motive for abandoning the entire Mosaic Law scheme is just sickening and appalling. Christianity abandoned the entire Mosaic Law system because they were specifically instructed to do so by the Apostles, and because they were now under a Grace administration instead of a law administration. The Mosaic law system was replaced with the detailed and comprehensive Rules and Regulations outlined in the Epistles. Instead of the Old Testament Sabbath and Circumcision, the outward signs of Christianity was and is now baptism and the Lord's Supper.

White revived the Second Century Ebionite heresy in order to engage in massive and unbridled and exploitative thievery against her gullible followers. Christianity has ALWAYS condemned Sabbath Keeping as a cultic, heretical and anti-Christian doctrine. Seventh Day Adventism is nothing more than the revival of the Ebionite Heresy - complete with Sabbath Keeping and vegetarianism - that was hotly-condemned and excommunicated by ALL of the First and Second Century Christian Fathers.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Here we go again..... another bait and switch thread in that lets find something unrelated to Sabbath Keeping and then convince Christians that it is a good idea to do it, then in convincing them to do it further convince them that perhaps their relationship with God is persuaded by it, then when they buy that convince them if they don't do it God will be so upset at them that he will cast them out if they don't do it then tie that in with other things that in also in the Old Testament in the same area and say now you have bought into this scam you are stuck with all the other stuff there too....
People want you to first buy into one commandment then they shove a lot of others down your throat while they themselves have a cherry picked list of them they keep avoiding the ones that are difficult to keep for themselves while you argue they should keep fabric and menstral and cleanliness laws they claim those were somehow done away with yet say you have to tithe, have a certain diet and keep the Sabbath.... God isn't amused at the mockery of the Law he gave to Moses at all. Calling God's Law Holy then shooting holes in it like swiss cheese and keeping anyway you like is nothing short of blasphemy IMO.
Seriously folks have any of you legalists sat down and read ALL of the Mosaic Law and found any hidden dotted lines where you can tear out pages of the Bible and ignore them in those areas?

 

[from scratch]

Your point is baseless.
Firstly Ellen white never argued for violation of God's law.
Secondly once we as christian realize that we should not steal lie or kill etc., we confirm that the ten Commandments are still binding. Can't have it both ways brother, one or the other.

ehehehehehehawehe!!!!!! One can never be obedient by incident. You back into the law to enforce the law.

 

[from scratch]

Here we go again..... another bait and switch thread in that lets find something unrelated to Sabbath Keeping and then convince Christians that it is a good idea to do it, then in convincing them to do it further convince them that perhaps their relationship with God is persuaded by it, then when they buy that convince them if they don't do it God will be so upset at them that he will cast them out if they don't do it then tie that in with other things that in also in the Old Testament in the same area and say now you have bought into this scam you are stuck with all the other stuff there too....
People want you to first buy into one commandment then they shove a lot of others down your throat while they themselves have a cherry picked list of them they keep avoiding the ones that are difficult to keep for themselves while you argue they should keep fabric and menstral and cleanliness laws they claim those were somehow done away with yet say you have to tithe, have a certain diet and keep the Sabbath.... God isn't amused at the mockery of the Law he gave to Moses at all. Calling God's Law Holy then shooting holes in it like swiss cheese and keeping anyway you like is nothing short of blasphemy IMO.
Seriously folks have any of you legalists sat down and read ALL of the Mosaic Law and found any hidden dotted lines where you can tear out pages of the Bible and ignore them in those areas?

And here all the time I thought they employed mice to make all those neat holes. It looks like what they do in my compost piles anyway. Psssss! Don't tell the cats.