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Snake75

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Of course brain activity can not explain the shoe in the gutter, nor millions of other cases of people learning things while dead that they could otherwise not know.

I found this site that has tons of documented cases of near death experiences and I've read through some of it. So far what I've read jives with other things I've learned over the years. You can find many more by doing a simple Google search.

Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife

If you take the time to read some of these stories I think you'll find that they tell a consistent story and that it is impossible for all of these accounts to be due to surges in brain activity, dreams or fables. These things are really happening.

And by the way, all of these eyewitness accounts of people having died and gone to heaven are evidence of an all powerful god and the afterlife, though you claim there is no such evidence. Whether you believe the evidence or not, is up to you, but to be honest the evidence is so overwhelming that you'd be a fool to dismiss it.

Where is link to the story with the woman and other similar stories? (I'm not gonna search though all the stories in that link)

It is not evidence. Just because science can't explain it yet does not mean its evidence. I am dismissing it as evidence of a creator because it has no value. The brain is a very powerful thing. Capable of many things and you don't realize that.
 
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catholichomeschooler

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I don't really understand what your saying..

Basically your saying the world just popped up in exist in the big bang theory? No, it took billions of years. Its the creationist idea that basically says the world just popped up because of some deity.

Umm Ok?


The universe did not exist before the Big Bang.

FYI, the first scientist to propose the Big Bang Theory was a Catholic priest.
 
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LastSeven

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Where is link to the story with the woman and other similar stories? (I'm not gonna search though all the stories in that link)

It is not evidence. Just because science can't explain it yet does not mean its evidence. I am dismissing it as evidence of a creator because it has no value. The brain is a very powerful thing. Capable of many things and you don't realize that.

You still don't seem to understand what evidence is. I never said "it's evidence because science can't explain it", because that doesn't even make sense. Why would you insinuate that I said that?

Evidence is anything that supports a position. It's not the same as proof. Proof establishes a fact, evidence supports the position. Eyewitness accounts of an afterlife certainly do support my position, so that makes all these accounts evidence. You can tell me you don't believe the evidence if you want, but don't tell me there is no evidence.

The brain is a very powerful thing but not so powerful that it can know things without being told.

The story of the woman is from a book I read but I don't have that book handy right now. Maybe the same story is on the website I linked to, I don't know. You don't have to find that exact same story. Just pick a few random links and read through them.

Here are three examples of people seeing verified things while out of body.
From this page

Example 1: An elderly woman had been blind since childhood, but, during her NDE, the woman had regained her sight and she was able to accurately describe the instruments and techniques used during the resuscitation her body. After the woman was revived, she reported the details to her doctor. She was able to tell her doctor who came in and out, what they said, what they wore, what they did, all of which was true. Her doctor then referred the woman to Moody who he knew was doing research at the time on NDEs.

Example 2: One patient told Moody, After it was all over the doctor told me that I had a really bad time, and I said, Yeah, I know.' He said, Well, how do you know?' and I said, I can tell you everything that happened.' He didn't believe me, so I told him the whole story, from the time I stopped breathing until the time I was kind of coming around. He was really shocked to know that I knew everything that had happened. He didn't know quite what to say, but he came in several times to ask me different things about it.

Example 3: In another instance a woman with a heart condition was dying at the same time that her sister was in a diabetic coma in another part of the same hospital. The subject reported having a conversation with her sister as both of them hovered near the ceiling watching the medical team work on her body below. When the woman awoke, she told the doctor that her sister had died while her own resuscitation was taking place. The doctor denied it, but when she insisted, he had a nurse check on it. The sister had, in fact, died during the time in question.


There have of course been millions of such cases happening around the world in all nations, religions and languages since the beginning of mankind. These are just three examples that happen to have been documented.
 
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Snake75

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You still don't seem to understand what evidence is. I never said "it's evidence because science can't explain it", because that doesn't even make sense. Why would you insinuate that I said that?

Evidence is anything that supports a position. It's not the same as proof. Proof establishes a fact, evidence supports the position. Eyewitness accounts of an afterlife certainly do support my position, so that makes all these accounts evidence. You can tell me you don't believe the evidence if you want, but don't tell me there is no evidence.

The brain is a very powerful thing but not so powerful that it can know things without being told.

The story of the woman is from a book I read but I don't have that book handy right now. Maybe the same story is on the website I linked to, I don't know. You don't have to find that exact same story. Just pick a few random links and read through them.

Here are three examples of people seeing verified things while out of body.
From this page

Example 1: An elderly woman had been blind since childhood, but, during her NDE, the woman had regained her sight and she was able to accurately describe the instruments and techniques used during the resuscitation her body. After the woman was revived, she reported the details to her doctor. She was able to tell her doctor who came in and out, what they said, what they wore, what they did, all of which was true. Her doctor then referred the woman to Moody who he knew was doing research at the time on NDEs.

Example 2: One patient told Moody, After it was all over the doctor told me that I had a really bad time, and I said, Yeah, I know.' He said, Well, how do you know?' and I said, I can tell you everything that happened.' He didn't believe me, so I told him the whole story, from the time I stopped breathing until the time I was kind of coming around. He was really shocked to know that I knew everything that had happened. He didn't know quite what to say, but he came in several times to ask me different things about it.

Example 3: In another instance a woman with a heart condition was dying at the same time that her sister was in a diabetic coma in another part of the same hospital. The subject reported having a conversation with her sister as both of them hovered near the ceiling watching the medical team work on her body below. When the woman awoke, she told the doctor that her sister had died while her own resuscitation was taking place. The doctor denied it, but when she insisted, he had a nurse check on it. The sister had, in fact, died during the time in question.


There have of course been millions of such cases happening around the world in all nations, religions and languages since the beginning of mankind. These are just three examples that happen to have been documented.

How do you know the author wasn't just making this up? I have not heard any of these stories beside ones found in religious books.


Again the link I sent you shows what science says happened with people seeing the "afterlife".
 
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LastSeven

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How do you know the author wasn't just making this up? I have not heard any of these stories beside ones found in religious books.

Let's be honest here. You're only 16 years old. There is a lot that you haven't heard yet.

When you hear thousands of similar stories that have a common theme and message and have a lot of similarities to the point where none of the stories contradict each other and they come from people all over the world from all different kinds of religious and ethnic backgrounds speaking all different kinds of languages, you know the stories are not "made up".

This page here for example talks about some of the common elements throughout all the different accounts.

Common elements are found in near-death experiences

Again the link I sent you shows what science says happened with people seeing the "afterlife".

The link you posted talks about a theory that could account for some of the experiences people have during clinical death. Even if the theory is true, it does not account for those countless cases where people have seen things during death that have been verified; things that they could not possibly have known. Like for example things that were happening in the room down the hall while they were in surgery, or even things that were happening hundreds of miles away, or long lost relatives they met while they were in heaven.

The theory posited at the link you shared does not explain those cases.
 
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chrisstavrous

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What about all those christians who believe that when you die you sleep untill the resurrection. I am sure they believe they can prove their claims just as well by using the experiences of people who have died and after they have come back to life recall blackness.
 
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aiki

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Like god, have you ever seen a real living 7.
And I ask again: Are you saying the number 7 does not exist?

...any science that could shed light on a creator will stand on its own evidence rather than the experience and faith of the scientist.
But science doesn't say anything. Science amounts to a body of data about observable processes within the physical universe. What the data means, how it is interpreted, is the work of scientists. And those scientists inevitably interpret the data in accord with their philosophical presuppositions. The documentary "No Intelligence Allowed" exposes the power of interpretive bias among secular scientists very well. I would urge you to check it out.

Hmm no, the universe has always been here it just keeps changing from one form of energy to another. When you postulate a first cause you create a infinite regress
The universe has not always existed. This is a well-established scientific fact. (See the Big Bang Theory) The universe began to exist a finite time ago. This is not a radical fringe view, but mainstream science. The Borde-Guth-Vilenkin Theorem further establishes - proves, really - that whatever kind of universe one wants to posit, all of them must have had a beginning. And whatever begins to exist has been caused to do so.

How does postulating a First Cause result in an infinite regress? I hope you aren't taking your cue in this from Dawkins. He asks, "Who created the Creator?" But asking this question reveals that Dawkins' conception of God is not the Christian conception of God. For a Christian, asking who created God is like asking how many married bachelors are there, or how many right angles are in a circle? It is a nonsensical question because it completely mistakes the nature of the thing in question. God cannot be God and be created. By definition, God is uncaused; He has always existed as a necessity of His own nature (like numbers or sets of numbers). As soon as one asks who created God one is no longer talking about God (or, at least, the Christian conception of Him).

So why do christians try and deconstruct scientific findings if there aim is not to create doubt, then from there slip their own theology into the doubters mind?
CHristians don't "deconstruct scientific findings." They deconstruct, or rather, challenge, the interpretation secular scientists give to scientific data. THere is nothing wrong with suggesting an interpretation of the facts that better fits with reality while also aligning with one's worldview.

Selah.
 
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chrisstavrous

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And I ask again: Are you saying the number 7 does not exist?
Not as a living being like you say god is.

But science doesn't say anything. Science amounts to a body of data about observable processes within the physical universe. What the data means, how it is interpreted, is the work of scientists. And those scientists inevitably interpret the data in accord with their philosophical presuppositions. The documentary "No Intelligence Allowed" exposes the power of interpretive bias among secular scientists very well. I would urge you to check it out.
As far as I know about scientists is they are not largely divided in understanding what the data says. I will look that documentry up next time I go on youtube, but i'm guessing its some YEC propaganda. I think I might have allready seen it

The universe has not always existed. This is a well-established scientific fact. (See the Big Bang Theory) The universe began to exist a finite time ago. This is not a radical fringe view, but mainstream science. The Borde-Guth-Vilenkin Theorem further establishes - proves, really - that whatever kind of universe one wants to posit, all of them must have had a beginning. And whatever begins to exist has been caused to do so.
The universe did exist but not in its current state. Pre big bang theory says the universe was in a tiny dense state (a singularity) so you see there was not nothing. There needs to be one form of energy to create another.

How does postulating a First Cause result in an infinite regress? I hope you aren't taking your cue in this from Dawkins. He asks, "Who created the Creator?" But asking this question reveals that Dawkins' conception of God is not the Christian conception of God. For a Christian, asking who created God is like asking how many married bachelors are there, or how many right angles are in a circle? It is a nonsensical question because it completely mistakes the nature of the thing in question. God cannot be God and be created. By definition, God is uncaused; He has always existed as a necessity of His own nature (like numbers or sets of numbers). As soon as one asks who created God one is no longer talking about God (or, at least, the Christian conception of Him).
Yes I agree, I think you get a infinite regress either way. The human brain is not equipped to deal with paradoxes and false dichotomies

CHristians don't "deconstruct scientific findings." They deconstruct, or rather, challenge, the interpretation secular scientists give to scientific data. THere is nothing wrong with suggesting an interpretation of the facts that better fits with reality while also aligning with one's worldview.
So does rib women and a talking snake better fit reality? So does the slaughter of children and slavery better fit one's world view?
 
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LastSeven

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What about all those christians who believe that when you die you sleep untill the resurrection. I am sure they believe they can prove their claims just as well by using the experiences of people who have died and after they have come back to life recall blackness.

I have read hundreds of after death stories and never once has anybody claimed to have seen only blackness during death. There is always an experience. If you can find me such a story, please share.
 
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Snake75

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It didn't exist, then Bang, it existed.

Where did it come from?

The universe was in a small dense atom sized thing before the big bang.
Your next question will probaly be, How did the big bang happen?

We don't know. But you don't know either.
 
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catholichomeschooler

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The universe was in a small dense atom sized thing before the big bang.
Your next question will probaly be, How did the big bang happen?

We don't know. But you don't know either.

So you don't know, yet you assume that the universe and life are spontaneous products of unknown random forces.

Do you believe there could be forces that we have no way of detecting?
 
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Snake75

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So you don't know, yet you assume that the universe and life are spontaneous products of unknown random forces.

Do you believe there could be forces that we have no way of detecting?

No. We don't know what caused the big bang nothing else. We have don't know completely what caused life in earth but there is a theory

No. No outside force caused it. Evolution and BBT is automatic meaning it works without outside forces.
 
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catholichomeschooler

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Georges Lemaître universe?

Its not a guess. Altough we don't know what started the big bang. We do know that after it everything started happening automatically.

Said above.[/QUOTE]

That's not what I asked.

You claimed no intelligent force was responsible for the creation of the universe. That is a guess.
 
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Snake75

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Its not a guess. Altough we don't know what started the big bang. We do know that after it everything started happening automatically.

Said above.

That's not what I asked.

You claimed no intelligent force was responsible for the creation of the universe. That is a guess.[/QUOTE]

It is a guess that has scientific evidence that suggest it. While your guess had an old book.
 
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