God's TEN Commandments: Keep them? or break them?

[from scratch]

Your wild assertions are not supported by the actual text in the documents.

So why keep repeating them as if that helps?

in Christ,

Bob

Wild assertions?

Where did you deal with this taken directly from MK 2:27 -

The verse contrasts mankind with the man. The phrase τὸν ἄνθρωπον isn't the same as ὁ ἄνθρωπος.

 

[from scratch]

Notice how this "sunday keeping source" argues for
1. the TEN Commandments as the MORAL Law of God - all TEN.
2. The Sabbath starting in EDEN - and kept by mankind even then.

========================

[FONT=&quot]CH Spurgeon[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
“The Perpetuity of the Law of God”
[/FONT]
Very great mistakes have been made about the law. Not long ago there were those about us who affirmed that the law is utterly abrogated and abolished, and they openly taught that believers were not bound to make the moral law the rule of their lives. What would have been sin in other men they counted to be no sin in themselves. From such Antinomianism as that may God deliver us. We are not under the law as the method of salvation, but we delight to see the law in the hand of Christ, and desire to obey the Lord in all things. Others have been met with who have taught that Jesus mitigated and softened down the law, and they have in effect said that the perfect law of God was too hard for imperfect beings, and therefore God has given us a milder and easier rule. These tread dangerously upon the verge of terrible error, although we believe that they are little aware of it.

Section 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith .

Section 19
. The Law of God

• God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

• The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

• Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

• To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

• The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.

• Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.

• The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

Why do you need to appeal to religious quotes to support your position? Why won't the Bible do it?

Why won't you acknowledge -

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake

 

[from scratch]

[FONT=&quot]Here Spurgeon's "Baptist Confession of Faith" insists the Sabbath was "changed"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Though admitting that from Creation - from Eden mankind kept it as the seventh day of the week -- until that 4th commandment was "bent" by man made tradition to point to week-day-1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Section 22.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]


[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Point 7[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]7. As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.[/FONT]

You defeat your own argument by quoting the above.

 

[from scratch]

Turns out - you were not correct - because in context this can only be mankind. No text argues for the "Making" of Jews, but rather the "making" of the Sabbath and the "making" of Mankind.

[FONT=&quot]27 Jesus said to them, "" The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. (G444 Anthropos)
28 ""So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.''[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"All Nations of Mankind" G444 Acts 17:26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"The rest of mankind" - G444 Acts 15:17[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath" - Man. [/FONT]G444

[FONT=&quot]And "Made for Mankind" in -- Man G444 Mark 2:27-28[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"All Nations of Mankind" G444 Acts 17:26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"The rest of mankind" - G444 Acts 15:17[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]MAN in Mark 2:27 and 28 [/FONT] ἄνθρωπος

In context Jesus is talking to Jews only.

Besides what you're trying to do makes Moses a liar.

13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you. Ex 31

Thirteen is your unlucky number. Why doesn't Moses say the Sabbath was a sign for all mankind?

It also makes Ezekiel a lair.

12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them.

Why doesn't Ezekiel say the Sabbath was given to mankind?

 

[BobRyan]

You defeat your own argument by quoting the above.

Only if my argument was that these Sunday Sources don't keep sunday. A point I never make as it turns out ... as we all knew.

What that quote DOES show is that the Sabbath commandment applicable to all mankind since Eden and is part of the moral law of God - specifically stated to be the TEN Commandments in the documents of each of those Sunday sources.

 

[BobRyan]

Turns out - you were not correct - because in context this can only be mankind. No text argues for the "Making" of Jews, but rather the "making" of the Sabbath and the "making" of Mankind.

[FONT=&quot]27 Jesus said to them, "" The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. (G444 Anthropos)
28 ""So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.''

[FONT=&quot]"All Nations of Mankind" G444 Acts 17:26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"The rest of mankind" - G444 Acts 15:17[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath" - Man. [/FONT]G444

[FONT=&quot]And "Made for Mankind" in -- Man G444 Mark 2:27-28[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"All Nations of Mankind" G444 Acts 17:26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"The rest of mankind" - G444 Acts 15:17[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]MAN in Mark 2:27 and 28 [/FONT] ἄνθρωπος[/FONT]

In context Jesus is talking to Jews only.

If the intent is to dismiss the entire life of Christ and the Gospels - then I suppose you could ignore the Gospels by saying "He was talking to Jews" -- how sad.

Good for the Sunday Sources I quote - they do no such thing as that.

Besides what you're trying to do makes Moses a liar.

13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you. Ex 31

The Sabbath was made for mankind - "and rested the seventh day therefore God Blessed THE Sabbath day and made it holy" -- however the "Sabbaths" of Lev 23 as annual holidays are for the Jews as Paul points out in Acts 21 while observing the ceremonial law.

In any case - whoever said that the "mankind does not include the Jews"??

Not me that is for sure.

Is 56
For thus says the Lord:
“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off. 6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”



Seven is your unlucky number.

 

[from scratch]

Turns out - you were not correct - because in context this can only be mankind. No text argues for the "Making" of Jews, but rather the "making" of the Sabbath and the "making" of Mankind.

[FONT=&quot]27 Jesus said to them, "" The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. (G444 Anthropos)
28 ""So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.''[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"All Nations of Mankind" G444 Acts 17:26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"The rest of mankind" - G444 Acts 15:17[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath" - Man. [/FONT]G444

[FONT=&quot]And "Made for Mankind" in -- Man G444 Mark 2:27-28[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"All Nations of Mankind" G444 Acts 17:26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"The rest of mankind" - G444 Acts 15:17[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]MAN in Mark 2:27 and 28 [/FONT] ἄνθρωπος

I don't think your separated passages say what you want them to mean.

Who is ἄνθρωπον? How can ἄνθρωπος be the same? Where in the Bible do you find a phrase such as the man Adam? We do find the man Christ Jesus in 1 Tim 2:5. No where do we find such a phrase or reference to Adam or mankind.

anthrōpos (ἄνθρωπο&#962 Christos (Χριστὸ&#962 Iēsous (Ἰησοῦ&#962.

 

[VictorC]

The Sabbath was made for mankind...
...In any case - whoever said that the "mankind does not include the Jews"??

Bob, you completely dismissed the point from Exodus 31:13 you're responding to. Instead, you're advocating a rejection of the Law by Jesus, by applying a statement He made that the sabbath was 'made for man'. The Law itself makes the sabbath exclusive to the children of Israel, and what many of us see in Jesus' statement is that the sabbath wasn't God's rest; it was not 'made for God'.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't need the Jews to be excluded from a promise given to all mankind to make my point - you do. The text as we see in both Mark 2:27 and in Isaiah 56 and in Is 66:23 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" does not exclude Jews from "mankind".

Bending/wrenching Ex 31:31 to mean "the rest of mankind should not keep this commandment" is eisegesis in the extreme. Both OT and NT refute it.

The promised blessing to Israel remains for keeping the 4th commandment as to all mankind who chooses to do it.

Even well known Sunday sources admit to the continued binding nature of the 4th commandment.

The "Baptist Confession of Faith"
The "Westminster Confession of Faith"
The Catholic Catechism
D.L. Moody
R.C Sproul
Andy Stanley
Thomas Watson


in Christ,

Bob

 

[from scratch]

Turns out - you were not correct - because in context this can only be mankind. No text argues for the "Making" of Jews, but rather the "making" of the Sabbath and the "making" of Mankind.

[FONT=&quot]27 Jesus said to them, "" The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. (G444 Anthropos)
28 ""So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.''[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"All Nations of Mankind" G444 Acts 17:26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"The rest of mankind" - G444 Acts 15:17[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath" - Man. [/FONT]G444

[FONT=&quot]And "Made for Mankind" in -- Man G444 Mark 2:27-28[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"All Nations of Mankind" G444 Acts 17:26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"The rest of mankind" - G444 Acts 15:17[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]MAN in Mark 2:27 and 28 [/FONT] ἄνθρωπος

What did the Apostles call all the multitude (translated Gentiles) to do in Acts 15:17 and following? It wasn't to keep the law.

Your citation doesn't support your argument. You argue form a literary view point which isn't valid.

 

[from scratch]

Only if my argument was that these Sunday Sources don't keep sunday. A point I never make as it turns out ... as we all knew.

What that quote DOES show is that the Sabbath commandment applicable to all mankind since Eden and is part of the moral law of God - specifically stated to be the TEN Commandments in the documents of each of those Sunday sources.

No, no. You're trying your hardest to make these sources support the keeping of the law while they say clearly they do something else. I think that's really called slander. It also violates the 9th commandment about false witness.

 

[from scratch]

Turns out - you were not correct - because in context this can only be mankind. No text argues for the "Making" of Jews, but rather the "making" of the Sabbath and the "making" of Mankind.

I suppose you can show us Jesus was talking to the world.

Let's see it.

 

[VictorC]

Bump for BobRyan

Bob, you completely dismissed the point from Exodus 31:13 you're responding to. Instead, you're advocating a rejection of the Law by Jesus, by applying a statement He made that the sabbath was 'made for man' outside the actual recipients of the sabbath. The Law itself makes the sabbath exclusive to the children of Israel, and what many of us see in Jesus' statement is that the sabbath wasn't God's rest; it was not 'made for God'.

Bob, do you advocate a premise that Jesus violated the Law, where it records a statement made directly by God?

 

[from scratch]

If the intent is to dismiss the entire life of Christ and the Gospels - then I suppose you could ignore the Gospels by saying "He was talking to Jews" -- how sad.

I've no clue why would you say that?

 

[from scratch]

The Sabbath was made for mankind - "and rested the seventh day therefore God Blessed THE Sabbath day and made it holy" -- however the "Sabbaths" of Lev 23 as annual holidays are for the Jews as Paul points out in Acts 21 while observing the ceremonial law.

Where did you lift the above quote from?

In any case - whoever said that the "mankind does not include the Jews"??

Who is trying to make such a foolish argument?

Not me that is for sure.

Really? who else has posted such a notion?

Is 56
For thus says the Lord:
“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off. 6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”



Seven is your unlucky number.

Who is the everyone since you highlighted it? You cling to the law (old covenant) and refuse to accept the New Covenant.

3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;


How does one join themselves to that covenant? Are they then strangers to it?

Rhetorical question answered with -

48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. Ex 12

This show they're no longer a stranger.

 

[from scratch]

I don't need the Jews to be excluded from a promise given to all mankind to make my point - you do. The text as we see in both Mark 2:27 and in Isaiah 56 and in Is 66:23 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" does not exclude Jews from "mankind".

Bending/wrenching Ex 31:31 to mean "the rest of mankind should not keep this commandment" is eisegesis in the extreme. Both OT and NT refute it.

The promised blessing to Israel remains for keeping the 4th commandment as to all mankind who chooses to do it.

Even well known Sunday sources admit to the continued binding nature of the 4th commandment.

The "Baptist Confession of Faith"
The "Westminster Confession of Faith"
The Catholic Catechism
D.L. Moody
R.C Sproul
Andy Stanley
Thomas Watson


in Christ,

Bob

Never give up. You'll never make me say uncle, ever!

Your argument is so bad you have to say from ... to means on. This is simply way beyond laughable. Are the activities of the following verse 24 activities you do on the Sabbath?

 

[BobRyan]

What did the Apostles call all the multitude (translated Gentiles) to do in Acts 15:17 and following? It wasn't to keep the law.

In Acts 15 they do not mention "Honor your Parents" (But Paul says that does not mean that the 5th commandment is excluded from gentiles in Eph 6:1-2 so no such thing as deleting all the Bible using Acts 15).

In Acts 15 they do not mention "Love God with all your heart", nor "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 but James does mention Lev 19:18 in James 2 so then no such thing as deleting all the Bible using Acts 15.

Hence even the Sunday sources listed - "get the point" - the Ten Commandments remain.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[from scratch]

Bump for BobRyan

Bob, do you advocate a premise that Jesus violated the Law, where it records a statement made directly by God?

He's looking for a c & p quote from someone to quote so he doesn't have to make a statement. Can't hardly wait. The anticipation is killing me.

 

[BobRyan]

you have to say from ... to means on. ?

"From Sabbath to Sabbath" AND "From New Moon to New Moon" in Is 66 BOTH cycles are kept by observing cycles -- not "ignoring them".

As perhaps we all knew to start with.

So then - just stating the obvious.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[from scratch]

In Acts 15 they do not mention "Honor your Parents" (But Paul says that does not mean that the 5th commandment is excluded from gentiles in Eph 6:1-2 so no such thing as deleting all the Bible using Acts 15).

In Acts 15 they do not mention "Love God with all your heart", nor "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 but James does mention Lev 19:18 in James 2 so then no such thing as deleting all the Bible using Acts 15.

Hence even the Sunday sources listed - "get the point" - the Ten Commandments remain.

in Christ,

Bob

What did the Apostles call the Gentiles to do? Was it to keep the law.

Surely you can't be saying someone here calling themselves a Christian is telling others to hate God.

But you don't accept -

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake...