Jewish Ethnocentrism

[Messianic Jewboy]

More than agree and understand

Hey G check out this article for a Messianic Gentile perspective.

Gentiles in the Messianic Movement | International Messianic Jewish Alliance

I have to say that there is a difference between the UMJC and MJAA. I can only speak from MJAA perspective and being involved in what you could call the MJAA flagship congregation. The difference I see is the UMJC is on an active role of 'Torah isn't for non Jews' and they have written papers, audios, videos on it. The MJAA on the other hand is silent. Speaking from a personal congregational experience the MJAA is more in line with the above article and viewing non Jews as sons of Abraham. I can't see the MJAA leadership going on a 'Torah isn't for non Jews' venue. Yes the leadership is Jewish because it's a Jewish movement but as Chernoff said in an interview he would have never imagined the influx of non Jews and it's dealt with differently.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Marc, you brought it up remember? "The unconditional promise of salvation to the nations..." This is the supposed 'promise' of the covenant of Abraham. So it is about salvation, isn't it?

Now I have read those scriptures many times and I don't remember anyone saying anything like that - except you. So, does this mean that you will not answer the question? In case you forgot it's, "Is salvation found in following Abraham or Y'shua?"

If you(non Jews) are in Christ(salvation) then you are of Abraham's seed(spiritually)because you exemplify the faith of Abraham.

 

[Yahudim]

You are kidding me, right? What a cop out. Things get too tough and you change the subject. Guess you can't change your stripes though. We are back to playing ...theological Whack-a-Mole!

If you will recall, we were discussing this topic first. So don't think that this will fool anyone Marc. I guess it is just too hard answering the simple question. The question Marc brought up but can't answer:

Messianic Judaism proudly Presents:
THE GREAT MYSTERY
"Is salvation found in following Abraham or Y'shua?"​

Sorry Philip I won't answer because I don't want to derail the current discussion which is about the Apostle's viewed non Jewish believers as b'nai Avraham not b'nai Israel.

 

[MWood]

A lot of this would seem to go directly back to the same issue that has been in the Jewish Church for centuries - and that's the point that Abraham in his faith is not opposite of trust in Yeshua, especially when remembering that it was the Angel of the Lord - Yeshua Himself - who appeared to Abraham (more here, here and here or here in How can Jesus be God when the Hebrew Bible says God is not a man? ) to give the promise of a seed coming thru his line to whom all would be blessed (Genesis 18). And Yeshua was exactly the fulfillment of that promise. We can assume that this was God, in the Person of Jesus Christ, appearing to Abraham before His incarnation and birth at Bethlehem. We assume this because of God the Father it says, No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him (John 1:18), and no man has ever seen God in the Person of the Father (1 Timothy 6:16). Therefore, if God appeared to someone in human appearance in the Old Testament (and no one has seen God the Father) it makes sense the appearance is of the eternal Son, the Second Person of the Trinity, before His incarnation in Bethlehem.

Hazakim - Theophanies - YouTube

When we understand who the Angel of the Lord is and how that's connected to Abraham's promise (which Yeshua emphasized in practice), it really isn't a problem seeing how salvation via Abraham's promise was never opposite of following the Lord. In John 8:53, in a dialogue between Jesus and the Jews, he is asked the question: "Are you greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do you make yourself out to be?"

But His surprising and revealing response to this question is in verses 56-58: "' . . . Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.' Then the Jews said to Him, 'You are not yet fifty years old . . .' Jesus said to them, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.' "

In Genesis 18:3, the word "Lord" is the same word as in verse 1, but is plural, which would seem to indicate that Abram could not initially determine who he was speaking with since they appeared as men. It wasn't until after the three had eaten, in verses 9-15, that he realized the true identity of his visitors and their purpose - and that one of those he spoke with was Jesus manifested in the flesh...

[Staff Edit]

On the day of Pentecost, Peter did nothing other than to preach the gospel of Christ, him crucified and resurrected to the Jews and to the baptize those that received Christ and trusted in him, wherein 3,000 souls were added to the church, Acts 2:5-41. The scripture culminates Peter's gospel message, "37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? "38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

You did write some good stuff here boy! I like it! I like it! I like it!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Hey G check out this article for a Messianic Gentile perspective.

Gentiles in the Messianic Movement | International Messianic Jewish Alliance

I have to say that there is a difference between the UMJC and MJAA. I can only speak from MJAA perspective and being involved in what you could call the MJAA flagship congregation. The difference I see is the UMJC is on an active role of 'Torah isn't for non Jews' and they have written papers, audios, videos on it. The MJAA on the other hand is silent. Speaking from a personal congregational experience the MJAA is more in line with the above article and viewing non Jews as sons of Abraham. I can't see the MJAA leadership going on a 'Torah isn't for non Jews' venue. Yes the leadership is Jewish because it's a Jewish movement but as Chernoff said in an interview he would have never imagined the influx of non Jews and it's dealt with differently.

Hey MJBoy,

Thanks for the article reference, although I am aware of that specific paper and several others similar - the one you brought up is one I referenced before years ago in previous discussions centering on the issue (as seen here ). I think I may've noted it to you in convo - but perhaps not - and on the issue, I do think there are differences between the MJAA and the UMJC...although I'd not say that the UMJC is necessarily more active in stances of "Torah not for Non-Jews" since they also note that Torah Observance is not obligatory for Jewish people (as in having to do it in order to please God) and instead is done in rememberance of who the Lord is/distinction while those who are Gentiles wishing to observe it have freedom to do so if called to it while Gentiles not doing so are accepted by the Lord since Mosaic Torah was never what the Lord envisioned for all Gentiles to walk according to. ..

And for both, observing Torah was never what was an issue since following Christ was a matter of following the Law/Torah of God he set - but what was the real focus was knowing the variations Torah went thru and seeing what God commanded to both Jew and Gentile that was to be followed. Obviously, this doesn't mean that works are not important to the Lord since they are a reflection of how one feels before the Lord (and that has been shared before here, here, here, here, here and here) - and yet on the same token, it's foolish for others to assume the works of repentance God was concerned for were SOLELY those defined in the Mosaic Code - and then tyring to claim Gentiles as well as Jews were all bound to that only.

For that is not in accordance with the whole of Biblical History. The other Apostles didn't try to convert people to Judaism. They did object to that.

With the MJAA, they also seem to echo the same dynamics - but their focus is less direct on the matter. It's like the difference between someone sharing on an issue and their point being seen in the story they shared - whereas another shares on an issue and notes "This is the point"...

But in both, the focus on people being accepted on the basis of Abraham's faith and that being what brings Non-Jews and Jews together seems present in both the MJAA and UMJC. The apostles were right not to force Gentiles to become Jews or vice versa. Likewise, the MJAA doesn't try to force Gentiles to become Jews. And I've seen some of the articles from the MJAA that go in-depth on the Abraham issue that were helpful - as seen in Rediscovering Galatians_2011 MJAA Southwest Regional. ..other places being Competing Trends In Messianic Judaism: The Debate Over Judaism: The Debate Over Evangelicalism - Kesher Journal of Messianic Judaism... (which went into good detail showing some of the ways MJAA and UMJC are radically different even though they line up...one clear difference between the two groups being that the MJAA has shown greater willingness to identify officially with evangelical move­ments since MJAA members and congregations, for instance, have affili­ated themselves with the popular Promise Keeper movement)..

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

You are kidding me, right? What a cop out. Things get too tough and you change the subject. Guess you can't change your stripes though. We are back to playing ...theological Whack-a-Mole!

If you will recall, we were discussing this topic first. So don't think that this will fool anyone Marc. I guess it is just too hard answering the simple question. The question Marc brought up but can't answer:

"Is salvation found in following Abraham or Y'shua?"​

I answered your question, sorry you don't like the answer.

Salvation is not based on works my friend, when you follow to do something it's works. No one is saved by works. So your question is either a loaded question or you possibly don't understand. Read Peters sermon in Acts 2.

 

[Yahudim]

No you didn't answer the question, Marc. The question I asked is: "Is salvation found in following Abraham or Y'shua?"

It couldn't be more simple. What I don't like is the 1) the lie that you did answer and 2) the dodge afterward. Why do you have such a difficult time with this simple, basic, foundational question? What's that matter Marc?

I answered your question, sorry you don't like the answer.

Salvation is not based on works my friend, when you follow to do something it's works. No one is saved by works. So your question is either a loaded question or you possibly don't understand. Read Peters sermon in Acts 2.

 

[MWood]

In Isaiah 32:2, God is described as a hiding place from the wind and a cover from the tempest, as rivers of water in a dry place, as a shadow of a great rock in a weary land. For the OT believer, God was for them a hiding place from the wind, a cover from the tempest, and a refuge.... Their faith is the same as our faith, as we now know it is Christ who provides that shelter. Nevertheless, at that time they were looking for a shelter in the same way. Anyone who cried out to God for shelter and came to him in Old Testament times would be saved. Today, God has made provision through his Son Jesus. They didn’t know the details then, but all they had to know was that God was merciful and if they cast themselves on him then he would show mercy.

Jesus says, “Come to Me, all you who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” That is what Abraham did. He came to God and demonstrated his faith by following God’s commands, and God gave him rest....and that rest comes from believing in Yeshua, as the Lord noted multiple times:



Jesus told His fellow Jews that if they knew the Father, they would know Him also, and those who rejected Him rejected the Father as well (see Luke 10:16; John 5:36-47; cf. also 9:39-41). In keeping with this, John wrote that “he who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life,” and that “no one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also” (1 John 5:12; 2:23).


Paul had “great sorrow and unceasing anguish” in his heart since many of his people were not saved (see Romans 9:2), including those whom he said were “zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge” (Romans 10:2). It was for those very people that he prayed (see Romans 10:1), “Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness” (Romans 10:3).

According to Paul, despite the religious zeal of the Jewish people, they failed to understand the gift of God’s righteousness and therefore “his heart’s desire and prayer to God for [them was] that they may be saved” (Romans 10:1)..for even Jewish people who are zealous for God (Romans 10:2) and are pursuing a law of righteousness (9:31; 10:3) are in need of salvation through Yeshua.

And when we trust in Yeshua, we are doing as Abraham did and what Abraham was promised when it came to being Children of Abraham. For places with good basic review on the issue, one can go to God's Promise to Abraham's Offspring: Singular or Plural?

Another good read! Be sure to read...Gods Promise to Abraham's offspring..

 

[MadMaxData]

There is a heretical teaching that Jewish believers in Messiah are in some way superior to their gentile brothers based on the false assumption that they are still the custodians of the Kingdom of Heaven and of Torah. This is not true.

Are you guys reading the the same Word as everyone else?

The question is are you?

Romans 3:1-2
Then what advantage has the Jew? What is the value of being circumcised? Much in every way! In the first place, the Jews were entrusted with the very words of God.

So much for heresy or assumption.

 

[Yahudim]

So this means no more 'One new man in Messiah, Jew and Gentile alike'? I am not proposing that the Jews don't have different promises. Far from it. But I am saying, so too do they have a greater responsibility. The heresy I spoke of is the same that Y'shua spoke of in Matt 32 about keeping the Gentiles out. It is the same 'Wall of Separation' that Pauls taught against. That is the heresy.

The question is are you?

Romans 3:1-2
Then what advantage has the Jew? What is the value of being circumcised? Much in every way! In the first place, the Jews were entrusted with the very words of God.

So much for heresy or assumption.

 

[MadMaxData]

The heresy I spoke of is the same that Y'shua spoke of in Matt 32 about keeping the Gentiles out. It is the same 'Wall of Separation' that Pauls taught against. That is the heresy.

But that is not what you said. This is what you said:

There is a heretical teaching that Jewish believers in Messiah are in some way superior to their gentile brothers based on the false assumption that they are still the custodians of the Kingdom of Heaven and of Torah. This is not true.

The Scriptures make it clear that is not a false assumption, and that you were wrong. I can only comment on what was actually said.

The dividing wall or wall of separation were the laws the Sanhedrin enforced that separated Jews and gentiles. The eighteen gezerot of Shammai.

 

[Yahudim]

Perhaps you don't see the relationship between the two statements. However, if you wish to discuss it in depth, come on over to the thread where it is being discussed, OK? Thanks.

But that is not what you said. This is what you said:

The Scriptures make it clear that is not a false assumption, and that you were wrong. I can only comment on what was actually said.

The dividing wall or wall of separation were the laws the Sanhedrin enforced that separated Jews and gentiles. The eighteen gezerot of Shammai.

 

[etZion]

If you(non Jews) are in Christ(salvation) then you are of Abraham's seed(spiritually)because you exemplify the faith of Abraham.

Do you think that being "spiritual" heirs of Abraham, has any literal implications?

Also what about being part of the commonwealth of Israel, or being grafted into a tree that belongs only to Israel? Do any of those have literal implications on gentiles?

Looking forward to your responses.

 

[Yahudim]

Yeah. Good luck with that. Might need the 'Jaws of Schleife'.

Do you think that being "spiritual" heirs of Abraham, has any literal implications?

Also what about being part of the commonwealth of Israel, or being grafted into a tree that belongs only to Israel? Do any of those have literal implications on gentiles?

Looking forward to your responses.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Do you think that being "spiritual" heirs of Abraham, has any literal implications?

Yes cause I believe the Apostles viewed non Jewish believers as more than sons of Noah but 'sons of Abraham. I'm in an discussion somewhere else about this. In Judaism(then and now) a son of Abraham is a convert, in the Apostolic sense if you will it's not a convert(becoming a son of Israel), so we have to be careful with this not to portray the wrong idea.

Also what about being part of the commonwealth of Israel, or being grafted into a tree that belongs only to Israel? Do any of those have literal implications on gentiles?

The root of the tree is the patriarchs. The root being the patriarchs doesn't belong to Israel only.

 

[Yahudim]

Despite the fact that Y'shua declared in Matthew 21, "Therefore, I tell you that the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to the kind of people that will produce its fruit!”, and despite the fact the subsequent verse confirms: As the head cohanim and the P’rushim listened to his stories, they saw that he was speaking about them.; Jewish believers still refuse to accept that the cohens and P'rushim of old and the rabbinate of today, of neither Messianic or traditional Judaism, do not hold any religious authority whatsoever. What don't they understand about: ...all power and all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Him - not them!

Despite the fact that Y'shua declared in Matthew 23, "8 But you are not to let yourselves be called ‘Rabbi’; because you have one Rabbi, and you are all each other’s brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘Father.’ because you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to let yourselves be called ‘leaders,’ because you have one Leader, and he is the Messiah! 11 The greatest among you must be your servant, 12 for whoever promotes himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be promoted."; they continue in their rebellion to Y'shua and God by calling themselves rabbi and leader or worse still, putting themselves under the authority of those that do, thereby condoning their rebellion and joining in it. I stand on His Word knowing that they will be humbled and their pronouncements are vanity.

They are double minded, double tongued, twisting the intent of the Word in a vain attempt to lift themselves up and put their brethren down. According to Y'shua, would make their Gentile brethren, "...twice as fit for Gei-Hinnom as you are!" They continue in their efforts to pigeon-hole their Gentile brethren into any artifice that separates them from both Israel and the written Word of God; rather than accede to the true manifestation of 'one man in Messiah'.

In another thread Tishri asks, 'What does Echad look like?' Well, it isn't this.

C'mon, everybody sing the unofficial UMJC rabbis refrain to the Gentiles!

♪Don't stand, don't stand so
Don't stand so close to me
Don't stand, don't stand so
Don't stand so close to me

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Despite the fact that Y'shua declared in Matthew 21, "Therefore, I tell you that the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to the kind of people that will produce its fruit!”, and despite the fact the subsequent verse confirms: As the head cohanim and the P’rushim listened to his stories, they saw that he was speaking about them.; Jewish believers still refuse to accept that the cohens and P'rushim of old and the rabbinate of today, of neither Messianic or traditional Judaism, holds no religious authority whatsoever. What don't they understand about: ...all power and all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Him - not them!

Despite the fact that Y'shua declared in Matthew 23, "8 But you are not to let yourselves be called ‘Rabbi’; because you have one Rabbi, and you are all each other’s brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘Father.’ because you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to let yourselves be called ‘leaders,’ because you have one Leader, and he is the Messiah! 11 The greatest among you must be your servant, 12 for whoever promotes himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be promoted."; they continue in their rebellion to Y'shua and God by calling themselves rabbi and leader or worse still, putting themselves under the authority of those that do, thereby condoning their rebellion and joining in it. I stand on His Word knowing that they will be humbled and their pronouncements are vanity.

They are double minded, double tongued, twisting the intent of the Word in a vain attempt to lift themselves up and put their brethren down. According to Y'shua, would make their Gentile brethren, "...twice as fit for Gei-Hinnom as you are!" They continue in their efforts to pigeon-hole their Gentile brethren into any artifice that separates them from both Israel and the written Word of God; rather than accede to the true manifestation of 'one man in Messiah'.

In another thread Tishri asks, 'What does Echad look like?' Well, it isn't this.

C'mon, everybody sing the unofficial UMJC rabbis refrain to the Gentiles!

Don't stand, don't stand so
Don't stand so close to me
Don't stand, don't stand so
Don't stand so close to me

The issue I have with some leaders(not all) in the Messianic Jewish movement is that the view on non Jews is not the same the Apostle's had. Paul said if you're in Christ then you are in Abraham's seed(son of Abraham) in a spiritual sense pertaining to the promise of salvation and grafted into the Olive Tree.

The issues are how can you peacefully explain, teach that non Jews are not sons of Israel in the flesh and spirit and at the same time the Torah teaches how to live a godly life for ALL.

And at the same time peacefully teach or whatever that there is distinction with the house of Israel because A Jew in the flesh is one that is circumcised [IN THE FLESH] according to Gen 17...If there are no [fleshly] Jews then there can be no promise of Messiah to the Jews [who have Not Yet come to BELIEF IN Messiah Yeshua BY FAITH].

I'm having a conversation about this with others. A valid point is not the synagogue will get over run by non Jews but that non Jews could possible interfere with normal operations. I've heard stories first hand about this. In one instance a synagogue operations and normal affairs were messed up because the non Jews started to want things different than Jewish worship and operations, even a few were now claiming to be Jewish all of a sudden and started a ruckus. So I can relate to this. That's why the core should be Jewish.

So in today's modern world you have to understand or maybe you don't from experience, I don't know.

This present day is a lot different than Paul's day. And to be honest putting myself in Paul'a shoes I don't think I could have done what Paul did. To make a claim that non Jews in Christ are Abraham's seed. I believe Paul meant that spiritually. However metaphorically or not the solution would be 'ok Paul if they are sons of Abraham the reasonable conclusion would be to circumcise and direct them to keep the Law of Moses'. I can't imagine myself in Paul's day if I were an Apostle to the Gentiles. I'm not strong enough! Geez I can imagine if I told my unbelieving family that non Jews who believe in Yeshua are sons of Abraham(in a spiritual), even if I emphasized that I don't mean sons of Israel.

There has to be a solution where the sons of Israel(Jews) are distinguished and and at the same time not causing separation by any means with non Jews who hear Moses read live a godly life.

Now my personal experience in real life is NOT the experience of the papers, audios and the like.

 

[annier]

The issue I have with some leaders(not all) in the Messianic Jewish movement is that the view on non Jews is not the same the Apostle's had. Paul said if you're in Christ then you are in Abraham's seed(son of Abraham) in a spiritual sense pertaining to the promise of salvation and grafted into the Olive Tree.

The issues are how can you peacefully explain, teach that non Jews are not sons of Israel in the flesh and spirit and at the same time the Torah teaches how to live a godly life for ALL.

And at the same time peacefully teach or whatever that there is distinction with the house of Israel because A Jew in the flesh is one that is circumcised [IN THE FLESH] according to Gen 17...If there are no [fleshly] Jews then there can be no promise of Messiah to the Jews [who have Not Yet come to BELIEF IN Messiah Yeshua BY FAITH].

I'm having a conversation about this with others. A valid point is not the synagogue will get over run by non Jews but that non Jews could possible interfere with normal operations. I've heard stories first hand about this. In one instance a synagogue operations and normal affairs were messed up because the non Jews started to want things different than Jewish worship and operations, even a few were now claiming to be Jewish all of a sudden and started a ruckus. So I can relate to this. That's why the core should be Jewish.

So in today's modern world you have to understand or maybe you don't from experience, I don't know.

This present day is a lot different than Paul's day. And to be honest putting myself in Paul'a shoes I don't think I could have done what Paul did. To make a claim that non Jews in Christ are Abraham's seed. I believe Paul meant that spiritually. However metaphorically or not the solution would be 'ok Paul if they are sons of Abraham the reasonable conclusion would be to circumcise and direct them to keep the Law of Moses'. I can't imagine myself in Paul's day if I were an Apostle to the Gentiles. I'm not strong enough! Geez I can imagine if I told my unbelieving family that non Jews who believe in Yeshua are sons of Abraham(in a spiritual), even if I emphasized that I don't mean sons of Israel.

There has to be a solution where the sons of Israel(Jews) are distinguished and and at the same time not causing separation by any means with non Jews who hear Moses read live a godly life.

Now my personal experience in real life is NOT the experience of the papers, audios and the like.

oops sorry.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Marc, could you be more explicit in what you mean by normal operations and affairs?

For instance a minyan. Only those that are Jewish can perform things. I do think a Messianic synagogue core should be Jewish but this doesn't mean that it should cause separation. If a congregation be it believing or non believing it's not far fetched to be aware that if the majority is non Jewish they want to change things, want to be a full member etc.

Yes it is a Jewish movement and since it is it should remain that way. But I do realize time are changing and non Jews want to be part of a Messianic Jewish synagogue. To me this doesn't cause the separation that some would conclude, it is what it is. My experience though this isn't an issue amongst my non Jewish friends in our congregation. They realize it's a synagogue, it's not even an issue to begin with.

 

[Lulav]

For instance a minyan. Only those that are Jewish can perform things. I do think a Messianic synagogue core should be Jewish but this doesn't mean that it should cause separation. If a congregation be it believing or non believing it's not far fetched to be aware that if the majority is non Jewish they want to change things, want to be a full member etc.

Yes it is a Jewish movement and since it is it should remain that way. But I do realize time are changing and non Jews want to be part of a Messianic Jewish synagogue. To me this doesn't cause the separation that some would conclude, it is what it is. My experience though this isn't an issue amongst my non Jewish friends in our congregation. They realize it's a synagogue, it's not even an issue to begin with.

How do you know it isn't an issue with the Gentiles in your congregation? Few will speak out in person how they really feel about this kind of thing, that is why you will find a truer perspective online because of the anonymity.