Hell: I am not seeing eternal torment in the scriptures

[Phantasman]

No one dies in second death.

The Gospel never talks about a "second death", nor did Christ allude to such. Some believe a vision to be a prophesy, something that must come to pass. Prophesy was always in part (not exact) as the early prophets dealt with the Spirit as it "came upon them". Once we were able to receive the Spirit within,(from Christ), there was no need for prophesy, as that which is perfect came.(Corinth 13:10).

"Then I asked him, "Lord, how shall we be able to prophesy to those who request us to prophesy to them? For there are many who ask us, and look to us to hear an oracle from us."
The Lord answered and said, "Do you not know that the head of prophecy was cut off with John?"
But I said, "Lord, can it be possible to remove the head of prophecy?"
The Lord said to me, "When you come to know what 'head' means, and that prophecy issues from the head, (then) understand the meaning of 'Its head was removed.' At first I spoke to you in parables, and you did not understand; now I speak to you openly, and you (still) do not perceive. Yet, it was you who served me as a parable in parables, and as that which is open in the (words) that are open."- Secret James

 

[texascowgirl]

Mr. Expert, Do you have a BAG Lexicon?

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]ὄλεθρος Eternal death BAG R566 2Thess 1:9 and Perseus Dictionary Entry (Liddell and Scott [and Jones]'s Greek-English Lexicon, 9th ed., 1925-1940) [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]the cheat, the pest! Id.21.209; [/FONT][/FONT]

I HAVE 11 DIFFERENT BIBLES AND SOME WITH GREEK AND HEBREW DICTIONARIES. YOU don't need to question me. I need you to know God is LOVE AND LOVE WORKS NO ILL. CHRIST DID NOT DIE FOR US TO TURN AROUND AND SET US ON FIRE. that's IS NOT WHY HE WAS SENT HERE. EXCUSE MY ATTITUDE BUT....DUH.

Christ suffered and so shall we, Christ died and so shall we, Christ was resurrected to life and so shall we

And let me ask you, why is it the day of death better than the day of one's birth and and the dead, who had already died, are HAPPIER than the living, who are still alive. IS HELLFIRE BETTER THAN ANYTHING THAT COULD HAPPEN TO MAN HERE ON THIS EARTH?? iS HELLFIRE BETTER THAN THE TRIALS WE SUFFER HERE ON EARTH? WOULD WE BE HAPPIER IN HELLFIRE THAN HERE ON EARTH??

 

[Der Alte]

Im not wrong. And I will also tell you your hellfire teachings go against the entire bible. Study more. You need to start all over with your studies.

How is your teaching that God is gonna set his enemies on a literal fire all while telling us to love our enemies. Arent we suppose to be following Christ. What do you think would happen to you if you set your enemies on fire becuaes you wanted to follow Christ? You think the courts would buy it and set you free?

How many times does God have to tell you the preachers are liars before you will comprehend it. you sir do not have ears to hear.

Nothing but empty air! All you are doing is saying "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!" When I say you are wrong I show you how. For example you quoted 3 OT scriptures which were about lying prophets which were sent to king Ahab, and you claim that it talks about all prophets and all teachers of all times.

You claimed that the letter to the church at Pergamos which said that it was satan's throne meant all churches of all times. I have shown that you misinterpret every scripture you quote. God did not say all the preachers were liars as I have shown you. You try to argue that God is not going to set His enemies on fire. Have you ever read about Sodom and Gomorrah, or the 400 prophets of Baal that God sent down fire and destroyed?

 

[Clairvoyance]

You'd think that since Hell is such an important concept for our lives that it might have been mentioned more than once or twice and more than in just poetic, ambiguous language...

The Bible goes into GREAT detail about how we should deal with animal husbandry but doesn't seem to think eternal torture is that important?

 

[texascowgirl]

Nothing but empty air! All you are doing is saying "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!" When I say you are wrong I show you how. For example you quoted 3 OT scriptures which were about lying prophets which were sent to king Ahab, and you claim that it talks about all prophets and all teachers of all times.

You claimed that the letter to the church at Pergamos which said that it was satan's throne meant all churches of all times. I have shown that you misinterpret every scripture you quote. God did not say all the preachers were liars as I have shown you. You try to argue that God is not going to set His enemies on fire. Have you ever read about Sodom and Gomorrah, or the 400 prophets of Baal that God sent down fire and destroyed?

You may not think its all of them but I do. It is they who deceived THE WHOLE WORLD. so if it isn't all of them its heck of a lot of them since they deceived the whole world and not everyone goes to the same church or has the same religion. Giving the fact that there are hunderds or even thousands, I don't know how many, of different religions out there, WHICH ONE IS NOT A LIAR giving the fact they all teach different and there is only ONE TRUTH and all of the religions claim they know it all and they are right.

 

[Der Alte]

Mr. Expert,
Do you have a BAG Lexicon? ὄλεθρος Eternal death BAG R566 2Thess 1:9 and Perseus Dictionary Entry (Liddell and Scott [and Jones]'s Greek-English Lexicon, 9th ed., 1925-1940# the cheat, the pest! Id.21.209;

I certainly do, but unlike yours, mine has the complete definition of [SIZE="+1"]ὄλεθρος[/SIZE]. But wait a minute the BAG online does not have "eternal death, the cheat, the pest!" and Liddell, Scott, Jones classical Greek lexicon is not part of BAG.

[SIZE="+1"]ολεθρος ou, oJ[/SIZE] # Hom. +; Dit., Syll. 3 527, 82 [ c. 220 BC ]; BGU 1027 XXVI, 11; LXX ; Philo ; Jos. , Ant. 17, 38, Vi. 264; Sib. Or. 3, 327; 348# destruction, ruin, death in our lit. always w. some kind of relig. coloring: e[rcetaiv tini o[l. ruin comes upon someone 1 Cl 57:4 #Pr 1:26 #. aijfnivdio" aujtoi`" ejfivstatai o[l. sudden destruction will come upon them 1 Th 5:3 . buqivzein tina; eij" o[l. plunge someone headlong into ruin 1 Ti 6:9 . o[l. aijwvnio" eternal death # Test. Reub. 6:3# 2 Th 1:9 # s. ojlevqrio" #. paradou`naiv tina tw`/ satana`/ eij" o[l. th`" sarkov" hand someone over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh 1 Cor 5:5 #handing over to Satan will result in the sinner’s death.—EvDobschütz, Die urchristl. Gemeinden ’02, 269-72 and s. paradivdwmi 1b.— Hierocles 14 p. 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby#. Destruction brought about by Satan is mentioned also IEph 13:1 o{tan puknw`" ejpi; to; aujto; givnesqe, kaqairou`ntai aiJ dunavmei" tou` satana` kai; luvetai oJ o[l. aujtou` when you come together frequently, the # spirit- ) powers of Satan are destroyed, and his destructiveness is nullified. M-M. *

A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker​

Let us look at the complete definition from Liddell, Scott, Jones, Classical Greek lexicon, instead of the selective partial quote, above. No eternal death anywhere.

Does this lexicon translate olethros as "the cheat?" No it does not. Here is what it says [SIZE="+1"]τὸν βάσκανον, τὸν δ' ὄ. the cheat, the pest![/SIZE] The first word [SIZE="+1"]τὸν βάσκανον[/SIZE] is "the cheat." The second word [SIZE="+1"]τὸν δ' ὄ.[/SIZE]. [SIZE="+1"]τὸν[/SIZE] is the definite article. [SIZE="+1"]δ'[/SIZE] is [SIZE="+1"]διά[/SIZE] "through." it is written [SIZE="+1"]δ'[/SIZE] when it precedes a word which begins with a vowel. And [SIZE="+1"]ολεθρος[/SIZE] is abbreviated [SIZE="+1"]ὄ.[/SIZE], thus "the pest." But to be translated "the pest" it must have the prefix [SIZE="+1"]δ'[/SIZE], thus [SIZE="+1"]δ'ολεθρος[/SIZE]. It seems you have a problem correctly quoting lexicons.

[SIZE="+1"]ὄλεθρ-ος , ὁ , ruin, destruction, death, αἰπὺς ὄ. Il. 11.174 , al. ; λυγρὸς ὄ. 10.174 , al. ; ὄ. ἀδευκής Od. 4.489 ; οἴκτιστος ὄ. 23.79 ; ἵνα ψυχῆς ὤκιστος ὄ. Il. 22.325 ; ὀλέθρου πείρατα, like τέλος θανάτοιο , the consummation of death, 6.143 ; ὄ., opp. γένεσις, Parm. 8.21 , 27 ; οὐκ εἰς ὄλεθρον ; as an imprecation, plague take thee! S. OT 430 ; χρημάτων ὀλέθρῳ by destruction of property. Th. 7.27 ; εἶναι ἐν ὀλέθρῳ Antipho 1.29 ; ἐπ' ὀλέθρῳ τῶν χρωμένων E. Ph. 534 ; ἐκκλησιάζειν ἐπ' ὀλέθρῳ Ar. Th. 84 ; οὐκ ἐπὶ δουλείᾳ κολάζοντες οὐδ' ἐπ' ὀλέθρῳ Pl. R. 471a : pl., Phld. Rh. 2.140S. II that which causes destruction, pest, plague, Hes. Th. 326 ; contemptuously of persons, γεγονὼς κακῶς καὶ ἐὼν ὄ. Hdt. 3.142 ; ὑπὸ γερόντων ὀ. Ar. Lys. 325 ; ὄ. ἄνθρωπος Eup. 376 , cf. Men. 533.13 ; ὄ. Μακεδών, of Philip, D. 9.31 ; ὄ. γραμματεύς a pestilent scribe, of Aeschines, Id. 18.127 ; τὸν βάσκανον, τὸν δ' ὄ. the cheat, the pest! Id. 21.209 ; ἀνθρώπους οὐδ' ἐλευθέρους ἀλλ' ὀ. Id. 23.202 ; πολλοὶ ὄ. καὶ μεγάλοι Pl. R. 491b . III seduction, Ἑλένης E. IA 1382 (troch.). [/SIZE]​

 

[Der Alte]

You'd think that since Hell is such an important concept for our lives that it might have been mentioned more than once or twice and more than in just poetic, ambiguous language...

The Bible goes into GREAT detail about how we should deal with animal husbandry but doesn't seem to think eternal torture is that important?

It is mentoned more than once or twice, in both testaments.

 

[Der Alte]

You may not think its all of them but I do. It is they who deceived THE WHOLE WORLD. so if it isn't all of them its heck of a lot of them since they deceived the whole world and not everyone goes to the same church or has the same religion. Giving the fact that there are hunderds or even thousands, I don't know how many, of different religions out there, WHICH ONE IS NOT A LIAR giving the fact they all teach different and there is only ONE TRUTH and all of the religions claim they know it all and they are right.

Right! The church has been wrong for 2013 years and only one Texascowsgirl knows the true truth. Wait a minute where have I heard that before. Charles Russell, Joseph Smith, Ellen White, John Thomas, and many others.

 

[texascowgirl]

I never said i have the one truth but I do know that the teaching of hellfire is 100 percent false. There are many things I dont know but hellfire is not one of them.

 

[Awaken4Christ]

I never said i have the one truth but I do know that the teaching of hellfire is 100 percent false. There are many things I dont know but hellfire is not one of them.

If the bible doesn't teach punishment in hell then where do people go to be be punished... a time-out room?

Matthew 25:46 "and these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Mark 9:42
"Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea."

Matthew 5:30
"And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell."

Don't you think there is a chance that when verses like 1 Tim 2:4 speak of "all" etc that it might refer to the atonement's power or capabilities? For example Jesus paid for our sins, but you still have to accept and believe on Christ to be saved.

John 3:16 says "whosoever believes" Jesus' very own words teach us that there are decisions to be made and eternal consequences

Now the fiery part is debatable as to exactly the nature of hellfire or lake of fire. One thing for sure... it ain't fun and doesn't feel good.

 

[he-man]

I certainly do, but unlike yours, mine has the complete definition of [SIZE=+1]ὄλεθρος[/SIZE]. But wait a minute the BAG online does not have "eternal death,

Liddell, Scott, Jones classical Greek lexicon the cheat, the pest!".

[SIZE=+1]ολεθρος ou, oJ[/SIZE] # Hom. +; Dit., Syll. 3 527, 82 [ c. 220 BC ]; BGU 1027 XXVI, 11; LXX ; Philo ; Jos. , Ant. 17, 38, Vi. 264; Sib. Or. 3, 327; 348# destruction, ruin, death in our lit. always w. some kind of relig. coloring: e[rcetaiv tini o[l. ruin comes upon someone 1 Cl 57:4 #Pr 1:26 #. aijfnivdio" aujtoi`" ejfivstatai o[l. sudden destruction will come upon them 1 Th 5:3 . buqivzein tina; eij" o[l. plunge someone headlong into ruin 1 Ti 6:9 . o[l.aijwvnio" eternal death # Test. Reub. 6:3# 2 Th 1:9# s. ojlevqrio" #. paradou`naiv tina tw`/ satana`/ eij" o[l. th`" sarkov" hand someone over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh 1 Cor 5:5 #handing over to Satan will result in the sinner’s death.—EvDobschütz, Die urchristl. Gemeinden ’02, 269-72 and s. paradivdwmi 1b.— Hierocles 14 p. 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby#. Destruction brought about by Satan is mentioned also IEph 13:1 o{tan puknw`" ejpi; to; aujto; givnesqe, kaqairou`ntai aiJ dunavmei" tou` satana` kai; luvetai oJ o[l. aujtou` when you come together frequently, the # spirit- ) powers of Satan are destroyed, and his destructiveness is nullified. M-M. *A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker
ὄλεθρ-ος , ὁ , ruin, destruction, death, αἰπὺς ὄ. Il. 11.174 , al. ; λυγρὸς ὄ. 10.174 , al. ; ὄ. ἀδευκής Od. 4.489 ; οἴκτιστος ὄ. 23.79 ; ἵνα ψυχῆς ὤκιστος ὄ. Il. 22.325 ; ὀλέθρου πείρατα, like τέλος θανάτοιο , the consummation of death, 6.143 ; ὄ., opp. γένεσις, Parm. 8.21 , 27 ; οὐκ εἰς ὄλεθρον ; as an imprecation, plague take thee! S. OT 430 ; χρημάτων ὀλέθρῳ by destruction of property. Th. 7.27 ; εἶναι ἐν ὀλέθρῳ Antipho 1.29 ; ἐπ' ὀλέθρῳ τῶν χρωμένων E. Ph. 534 ; ἐκκλησιάζειν ἐπ' ὀλέθρῳ Ar. Th. 84 ; οὐκ ἐπὶ δουλείᾳ κολάζοντες οὐδ' ἐπ' ὀλέθρῳ Pl. R. 471a : pl., Phld. Rh. 2.140S. II that which causes destruction, pest, plague, Hes. Th. 326 ; contemptuously of persons, γεγονὼς κακῶς καὶ ἐὼν ὄ. Hdt. 3.142 ; ὑπὸ γερόντων ὀ. Ar. Lys. 325 ; ὄ. ἄνθρωπος Eup. 376 , cf. Men. 533.13 ; ὄ. Μακεδών, of Philip, D. 9.31 ; ὄ. γραμματεύς a pestilent scribe, of Aeschines, Id. 18.127 ; τὸν βάσκανον, τὸν δ' ὄ. the cheat, the pest! Id. 21.209 ; ἀνθρώπους οὐδ' ἐλευθέρους ἀλλ' ὀ. Id. 23.202 ; πολλοὶ ὄ. καὶ μεγάλοι Pl. R. 491b . III seduction, Ἑλένης E. IA 1382 (troch.).
​

Liddell, Scott, Jones the cheat, the pest
???? what do you call this????
plunge someone headlong into ruin 1 Ti 6:9 . o[l. aijwvnio" eternal death # Test. Reub. 6:3# 2 Th 1:9# A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker PAGE 566 get the book buddy the blind leading the blind!
​

 

[Der Alte]

I never said i have the one truth but I do know that the teaching of hellfire is 100 percent false. There are many things I dont know but hellfire is not one of them.

I have to laugh at this. There are a multitude of folks all around with different beliefs and they all know that they know they are right and that everyone else is wrong. I do know that the teaching of universal reconciliation, every one will be saved no matter what, is 100% wrong.

 

[he-man]

I have to laugh at this. There are a multitude of folks all around with different beliefs and they all know that they know they are right and that everyone else is wrong.

And that includes one who is blind and leads the blind!
Liddell, Scott, Jones the cheat, the pest

???? and what do you call this????
plunge someone headlong into ruin 1 Ti 6:9 . o[l. aijwvnio" eternal death # Test. Reub. 6:3# 2 Th 1:9# A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker PAGE 566 get the book buddy and quit leading the blind!

 

[Der Alte]

Liddell, Scott, Jones the cheat, the pest
???? what do you call this????
plunge someone headlong into ruin 1 Ti 6:9 . o[l. aijwvnio" eternal death # Test. Reub. 6:3# 2 Th 1:9# A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker PAGE 566 get the book buddy the blind leading the blind!

I'm not the one with a seeing problem. The first time it could have been a mistake, now it is a deliberate falsification! Even after I showed you were wrong about "the cheat, the pest" This translates two different Greek words, you ignore it and post the same false statement again.

After you get your glasses checked, read your own BAG again, page 563, in my copy, left column about 1/2 way down. [SIZE="+1"]ολεθρος[/SIZE] alone does not mean "eternal death" What BAG translates as "eternal death" is "[SIZE="+1"]ολ[εθρος] αιωνιος[/SIZE]" Another deception exposed!

Now the definition of olethros from LSJ Classical Greek Lexicon.

[SIZE="+1"]ὄλεθρ-ος , ὁ , ruin, destruction, death, αἰπὺς ὄ. Il. 11.174 , al. ; λυγρὸς ὄ. 10.174 , al. ; ὄ. ἀδευκής Od. 4.489 ; οἴκτιστος ὄ. 23.79 ; ἵνα ψυχῆς ὤκιστος ὄ. Il. 22.325 ; ὀλέθρου πείρατα, like τέλος θανάτοιο , the consummation of death, 6.143 ; ὄ., opp. γένεσις, Parm. 8.21 , 27 ; οὐκ εἰς ὄλεθρον ; as an imprecation, plague take thee! S. OT 430 ; χρημάτων ὀλέθρῳ by destruction of property. Th. 7.27 ; εἶναι ἐν ὀλέθρῳ Antipho 1.29 ; ἐπ' ὀλέθρῳ τῶν χρωμένων E. Ph. 534 ; ἐκκλησιάζειν ἐπ' ὀλέθρῳ Ar. Th. 84 ; οὐκ ἐπὶ δουλείᾳ κολάζοντες οὐδ' ἐπ' ὀλέθρῳ Pl. R. 471a : pl., Phld. Rh. 2.140S. II that which causes destruction, pest, plague, Hes. Th. 326 ; contemptuously of persons, γεγονὼς κακῶς καὶ ἐὼν ὄ. Hdt. 3.142 ; ὑπὸ γερόντων ὀ. Ar. Lys. 325 ; ὄ. ἄνθρωπος Eup. 376 , cf. Men. 533.13 ; ὄ. Μακεδών, of Philip, D. 9.31 ; ὄ. γραμματεύς a pestilent scribe, of Aeschines, Id. 18.127 ; τὸν βάσκανον, τὸν δ' ὄ. the cheat, the pest! Id. 21.209 ; ἀνθρώπους οὐδ' ἐλευθέρους ἀλλ' ὀ. Id. 23.202 ; πολλοὶ ὄ. καὶ μεγάλοι Pl. R. 491b . III seduction, Ἑλένης E. IA 1382 (troch.). [/SIZE]​

Notice there are two Greek words [SIZE="+2"]τὸν βάσκανον, τὸν δ' ὄ.. The first word is [SIZE="+2"]τὸν βάσκανον[/SIZE]. The definite article is [SIZE="+2"]τὸν[/SIZE] If you will check the same LSJ you will find that it means "one who bewitches, sorcerer, as a term of abuse, slanderous, malicious," that is "the cheat"

The second word is [SIZE="+2"]τὸν δ' ὄ.[/SIZE] which is preceded by the definite article, [SIZE="+2"]τὸν[/SIZE] Then [SIZE="+2"]δ' ὄ.[/SIZE]. [SIZE="+2"]δ'[/SIZE] is the preposition dia which is abbreviated when it precedes a word which begins with a vowel. [SIZE="+2"]ολεθρος[/SIZE] is abbreviated as [SIZE="+2"]ο[/SIZE]. Thus [SIZE="+2"]τὸν βάσκανον, τὸν δ' ὄ.[/SIZE], two words, is translated as "the cheat, the pest" two words.[/SIZE]

Since you seem to have a vision problem I have made the font size larger, so you should not have any problems reading it.

 

[texascowgirl]

I have to laugh at this. There are a multitude of folks all around with different beliefs and they all know that they know they are right and that everyone else is wrong. I do know that the teaching of universal reconciliation, every one will be saved no matter what, is 100% wrong.

Just becuaes you yourself do not have that knowledge that all will will be saved does not mean its a false teaching. You were warned in the bible to stop turning the kingdom of heaven against men. Do as your told.

 

[Der Alte]

Just becuaes you yourself do not have that knowledge that all will will be saved does not mean its a false teaching. You were warned in the bible to stop turning the kingdom of heaven against men. Do as your told.

Yeah, right! I have heard it all before. Same ol' same ol' out-of-context proof texts which I have shown repeatedly.

 

[he-man]

No the blind trying to lead the seeing. The first time it could have been a mistake, now it is a deliberate falsification! .

Page 563 is οικος-οικουμενη so you better check PAGE 566 A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker get the book buddy and quit leading the blind! And that includes one who is blind and leads the blind!
Liddell, Scott, Jones the cheat, the pest

???? and what do you call this????
plunge someone headlong into ruin 1 Ti 6:9 . o[l. aijwvnio" eternal death # Test. Reub. 6:3# 2 Th 1:9# A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker PAGE 566 get the book buddy and quit leading the blind!

Here it is below, Scanned in from the book BAG; Published 1957 Library of Congress Catalog Number 56-5028

ολεθρος, ου, ο (Hοm. + ; Dit., Sy11.3 527, 82 [c. 220 se]; ΒGU 1027 XXVI, 11; LXX; Πhilο; Jos., Ant. 17, 38, Vi. 264; Sib. Or. 3, 327; 348) deatructiοn, ruin, death in our lit. always w. some kind οf relig. coloring: έρχετaί τινι όλ. ruin comes upon someone 1 Cl 57: 4 (Πr 1: 26). αίφνίδιος αύτoiς
έφίστaτaι όλ. sudden destruction will come upon them 1 Τh 5: 3. βυθίζειν τινά είς όλ. plunge someone headlong into ruin 1 Τi 6: 9. όλ. aίώνιος eternal death (Test. Reub. 6: 3) 2 Τh 1: 9 (s. όλέθριος).

παραδουναί τινα τω σατανα είς όλ. τής σαρκός hand
someone over tο Satan for the destruction of his flesh 1 Cοr 5: 5 (handing over tο Satan will result in the sinner's death.—ΕνDοbschtιtz, Die urchristl. Gemeinden '02, 269-72 and s. πaραδίδωμι 1 b). Destruction brought about by Satan is mentioned also 1Ερh 13: 1 όταν πυκνώς έπί τό αvτό
υίνεσθε, καθαιρούνται αί δννάμεις του σaτανά καί
λύεται δ Wt. αύτου when you come tοgether frequently, the (spirit-)powers οf Satan are destroyed, aid his destructiveness is nullified. Μ-Μ. *

566

 

[texascowgirl]

Del Alter does not have a clue in the difference between first death and second death. This is why his posts are so off the wall.

Yes God sends much destruction while we are alive on this earth. But that's all first death and has nothing to do with anything being done to man in second death.

 

[Gospel Guy]

There are many things I dont know but hellfire is not one of them.

OK, so you DO know about hell fire???

Have you been there er somethin? Do tell...

 

[texascowgirl]

I have studied it long enough to know IT DONT EXIST. A knowledge you are still lacking.