How could you tell?

[Wiccan_Child]

That is precisely my point, you being a natural/carnal man can't "test" what the scripture is referencing. You lack the faculty that would enable you to do so.

Then how do you, once a natural/carnal man yourself, distinguish between true spiritual revelation and simple mental delusion?

 

[discipulus]

It falsely excuses you from answering the question.

But suppose what you say is true. If someone deconverts, does the knowledge vanish from the person's head? We'd be able to test and analyse that, and by studying which knowledge vanishes, we could even prove that something supernatural is going on.

You may be of the opinion that True Christians never deconvert, and if someone does stray from the faith, then they were never True Christians to begin with - but in that case, you could distinguish a False Christian with a True Christian by the presence or absence of this knowledge.

So, which is it: does the knowledge vanish, or do False Christians never possess the knowledge? The distinction is not trivial, as the former will let us demonstrate the supernatural, the latter will let us distinguish between True and False Christians.

You're thinking like a natural man thinks and obviously so. This is evidenced in your statement regarding where you think this knowledge resides I.e in a persons head. But I am not at all speaking about head knowledge or intellect or knowledge apprehended via the mind.

It is not a mere intellectual assent to propositions but rather knowledge of the spiritual comes via a man's spirit by the Spirit of God and that can only properly function once it has been quickened by God Himself. This process is not subject to the scrutiny of the carnal, curious, natural eye.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You're thinking like a natural man thinks and obviously so. This is evidenced in your statement regarding where you think this knowledge resides I.e in a persons head. But I am not at all speaking about head knowledge or intellect or knowledge apprehended via the mind.

It is not a mere intellectual assent to propositions but rather knowledge of the spiritual comes via a man's spirit by the Spirit of God and that can only properly function once it has been quickened by God Himself. This process is not subject to the scrutiny of the carnal, curious, natural eye.

Which is convenient for false prophets and dishonest charlatans. They can just say that their claims are beyond the scrutiny of carnal and curious eyes.

 

[Non sequitur]

You're thinking like a natural man thinks and obviously so. This is evidenced in your statement regarding where you think this knowledge resides I.e in a persons head. But I am not at all speaking about head knowledge or intellect or knowledge apprehended via the mind.

It is not a mere intellectual assent to propositions but rather knowledge of the spiritual comes via a man's spirit by the Spirit of God and that can only properly function once it has been quickened by God Himself. This process is not subject to the scrutiny of the carnal, curious, natural eye.

That's circular.

How can you tell if the "knowledge of the spiritual" that was given/instilled/whatever was truthful?

 

[discipulus]

Which is convenient for false prophets and dishonest charlatans. They can just say that their claims are beyond the scrutiny of carnal and curious eyes.

That 's exactly right! Now you're understanding !

That's why Jesus told us specifically what to look out for to tell who the false teachers are.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

That 's exactly right! Now you're understanding !

That's why Jesus told us specifically what to look out for to tell who the false teachers are.

And so did every other prophet...

 

[discipulus]

That's circular.

How can you tell if the "knowledge of the spiritual" that was given/instilled/whatever was truthful?

By the spirit.

 

[discipulus]

And so did every other prophet...

You got a point you're tryin to make?

 

[discipulus]

Then how do you, once a natural/carnal man yourself, distinguish between true spiritual revelation and simple mental delusion?

By the spirit of discernment given by God to them who will to do His will.

 

[Non sequitur]

By the spirit.

How can you tell if the spirit is truthful?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

By the spirit of discernment given by God to them who will to do His will.

The problem with this is that it's circular: "I know my spirit of discernment is the real deal because my spirit of discernment told me so."

A sufficiently convincing mental delusion would convince you of the exact same thing, yet in reality it would just be a figment of your imagination. If a carnal person has no idea what spiritual people are talking about, how would a mentally deluded person know that what they mistakenly think is a 'spirit of discernment' is real? The real spirit of discernment may be something quite unfathomable or unmistakeable - but a carnal person wouldn't be able to recognise a delusion from the real deal.

So, how do you know you're not in the latter camp, mistaking delusion for the real deal?

 

[discipulus]

How can you tell if the spirit is truthful?

By knowing The Truth.

 

[discipulus]

The problem with this is that it's circular: "I know my spirit of discernment is the real deal because my spirit of discernment told me so."

A sufficiently convincing mental delusion would convince you of the exact same thing, yet in reality it would just be a figment of your imagination. If a carnal person has no idea what spiritual people are talking about, how would a mentally deluded person know that what they mistakenly think is a 'spirit of discernment' is real? The real spirit of discernment may be something quite unfathomable or unmistakeable - but a carnal person wouldn't be able to recognise a delusion from the real deal.

So, how do you know you're not in the latter camp, mistaking delusion for the real deal?

By knowing The Truth.

 

[Non sequitur]

By knowing The Truth.

How can you tell the Truth from falsehoods appearing to be the Truth?

 

[discipulus]

How can you tell the Truth from falsehoods appearing to be the Truth?

How can you tell the difference?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

By knowing The Truth.

But how do you know whether you really do know The Truth™, or if you're just suffering from mental delusion? As I said before, any sufficiently convincing mental delusion could convince you of whatever it is you believe you currently possess - be it the Spirit of Discernment™ or The Truth™ - so how can you tell?

 

[discipulus]

But how do you know whether you really do know The Truth™, or if you're just suffering from mental delusion? As I said before, any sufficiently convincing mental delusion could convince you of whatever it is you believe you currently possess - be it the Spirit of Discernment™ or The Truth™ - so how can you tell?

How do you know you're not delusional?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

How do you know you're not delusional?

I don't.

See, answering the question isn't hard.

So, how would a person know that The Truth™ and the Spirit of Discernment™ their believe they possess are the real deal, and not figments of a delusional mind?

 

[Non sequitur]

How can you tell the difference?

I can't.

Now, again, how could you tell the Truth from falsehoods proclaiming to be the Truth?

 

[discipulus]

I don't.

See, answering the question isn't hard.

So, how would a person know that The Truth™ and the Spirit of Discernment™ their believe they possess are the real deal, and not figments of a delusional mind?

I never said it was hard, in fact, I anticipated you saying exactly what you have.

In response, I will simply tell you that if you do not believe you can know if you are delusional or not, you need to be concerned about yourself and the very real possibility that you are delusional and not concerned with questioning other people's beliefs.