How could you tell?

[Tnmusicman]

Speaking from experience, don't expect this to go anywhere further.

"I know he's not lying because he can't lie. The reason I know he can't lie is because he can't lie." This is how logic led me to agnostic atheism.

We know God can't lie because lying is a sin. God can NOT commit a sin. However, it's not illogical for one to say that "the reason God can't lie is because he cant lie". Why would this lead you to atheism?? If God is able to create a universe is it out of the realm of possibility that He couldn't lie? Its as if you are trying to equate God with common man. It would be silly to say that any man couldn't lie because he can't lie (because man CAN lie). If something like that led you to atheism you weren't very strong in the faith in the first place.

 

[Yamaha06R6Guy]

Asking a Christian how they could tell if God was not lying to them is like asking someone how they could tell if a triangle was not a four sided shape.

The answer is found in understanding who God is in the same manner that the answer is found in understanding what a triangle is.

I think the question rather, should be:

How do we know if it is God communicating with us or just some psychological episode.

The answer to this comes from understanding that God speaks to us primarily via our conscience and His written Word.

Which would then lead to the question:

How do we know the Bible is God's Word and not the Quran or the Book of Mormon etc. etc.

The answer to this is that the sincere seeker will be shown by God Himself what is truth when they seek to do His will. The desire to do the will of God and submit one's life to Him is a prerequisite to this knowledge and it is God that causes men to desire to seek Him in the first place.

From Beginning to end, all is of God and requires one to humble themselves and confess they need God to illuminate their fallen and dark understanding. That is why many intellectuals cannot come to the knowledge of God because their intellect and knowledge are the very things blocking them from admitting they are ignorant when it comes to matters of a spiritual nature. The scientist is busy explaining, why the spiritual man is busy worshiping and the later receives illumination in both his mind and heart while the former comes away with mere head knowledge.

The proud cannot receive the knowledge of God for it is not something that is given to the proud but rather to the broken and contrite spirit.

And of course some think the whole idea of talking about God is silly and they kind of dismiss it as trivial.

But make no mistake here, Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important." - C. S. Lewis

Those words are from a man who can relate to you so take the words to heart and read some of his works if you have not.

Meditate on these things and continue to search and seek the truth. I am of the firm belief that those who do hunger and thirst after righteousness will be filled. Jesus Christ said that and thus far, those words have been proven true in my life. Our knowledge of God is proportionate to our desire to know Him.

 

[Davian]

Asking a Christian how they could tell if God was not lying to them is like asking someone how they could tell if a triangle was not a four sided shape.

The answer is found in understanding who God is in the same manner that the answer is found in understanding what a triangle is.

I think the question rather, should be:

How do we know if it is God communicating with us or just some psychological episode.

The answer to this comes from understanding that God speaks to us primarily via our conscience and His written Word.

Which would then lead to the question:

How do we know the Bible is God's Word and not the Quran or the Book of Mormon etc. etc.

The answer to this is that the sincere seeker will be shown by God Himself what is truth when they seek to do His will. The desire to do the will of God and submit one's life to Him is a prerequisite to this knowledge and it is God that causes men to desire to seek Him in the first place.

From Beginning to end, all is of God and requires one to humble themselves and confess they need God to illuminate their fallen and dark understanding. That is why many intellectuals cannot come to the knowledge of God because their intellect and knowledge are the very things blocking them from admitting they are ignorant when it comes to matters of a spiritual nature. The scientist is busy explaining, why the spiritual man is busy worshiping and the later receives illumination in both his mind and heart while the former comes away with mere head knowledge.

The proud cannot receive the knowledge of God for it is not something that is given to the proud but rather to the broken and contrite spirit.

And of course some think the whole idea of talking about God is silly and they kind of dismiss it as trivial.

But make no mistake here, Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important." - C. S. Lewis

Those words are from a man who can relate to you so take the words to heart and read some of his works if you have not.

Meditate on these things and continue to search and seek the truth. I am of the firm belief that those who do hunger and thirst after righteousness will be filled. Jesus Christ said that and thus far, those words have been proven true in my life. Our knowledge of God is proportionate to our desire to know Him.

Do you concern yourself with the site rules? Are you aware that the Philosophy forum is not to be used for general apologetics?

 

[Yamaha06R6Guy]

Do you concern yourself with the site rules? Are you aware that the Philosophy forum is not to be used for general apologetics?

I wrote what I wrote in response to the OP.

The OP asked a question about how we could know God was not lying to us and I gave an answer.

You may say this is preaching, or what not, but every Christian is called to be a preacher.

You may say this is general apologetics, but every Christian is called to be an apologist.

You may say this is not pertinent to philosophical discussion. I say talking about philosophy without talking about Jesus Christ is like trying to talk about the Model-T without talking about Henry Ford.

My post is right in line with the site rules and I am confident that in the event you do report it, that I will be vindicated.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

We know God can't lie because lying is a sin. God can NOT commit a sin. However, it's not illogical for one to say that "the reason God can't lie is because he cant lie". Why would this lead you to atheism?? If God is able to create a universe is it out of the realm of possibility that He couldn't lie? Its as if you are trying to equate God with common man. It would be silly to say that any man couldn't lie because he can't lie (because man CAN lie). If something like that led you to atheism you weren't very strong in the faith in the first place.

So there is something God cannot do (i.e., lie)? Then how is he omnipotent?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Asking a Christian how they could tell if God was not lying to them is like asking someone how they could tell if a triangle was not a four sided shape.

The answer is found in understanding who God is in the same manner that the answer is found in understanding what a triangle is.

I think the question rather, should be:

How do we know if it is God communicating with us or just some psychological episode.

The answer to this comes from understanding that God speaks to us primarily via our conscience and His written Word.

Which would then lead to the question:

How do we know the Bible is God's Word and not the Quran or the Book of Mormon etc. etc.

The answer to this is that the sincere seeker will be shown by God Himself what is truth when they seek to do His will. The desire to do the will of God and submit one's life to Him is a prerequisite to this knowledge and it is God that causes men to desire to seek Him in the first place.

From Beginning to end, all is of God and requires one to humble themselves and confess they need God to illuminate their fallen and dark understanding. That is why many intellectuals cannot come to the knowledge of God because their intellect and knowledge are the very things blocking them from admitting they are ignorant when it comes to matters of a spiritual nature. The scientist is busy explaining, why the spiritual man is busy worshiping and the later receives illumination in both his mind and heart while the former comes away with mere head knowledge.

The proud cannot receive the knowledge of God for it is not something that is given to the proud but rather to the broken and contrite spirit.

I disagree with your characterisation of the scientist and his or her head knowledge. You are depicting science as a cold and passionless activity that produces knowledge and nothing more. On the contrary, those who engage in it are struck with wonder by the mysteries they are grappling with.

You also portray scientists as arrogant and the "spiritual man" (the apologist) as humble. It is often the reverse. The scientist admits his ignorance to those questions for which he has no answer by saying "I don't know". The apologist doesn't admit his ignorance but pretends to having knowledge. He purportedly knows that God exists and he knows the nature of that God. He knows everything despite being unable to demonstrate anything. How is that humbling?

 

[JGG]

Yes you do.

Look up the word in its context in which we are speaking. Look it up as an attribute of God and see what you find.

In a debate with Dr. Craig, Dr. Pigliucci, a non-theistic naturalist understands that the word "God" is and I quote: "is what we call a perfect anthropomorphic God, that is, a God that does have something to do with the everyday working of the universe, but he is perfect, he doesn't make mistakes, he's always good, he's all over the place..." (Debate Transcript: Massimo Pigliucci-University of Georgia, Athens, Georgia, United States – 1998)

KC, you need to understand that "God" capital "G" is what philosophers refer to as the concept of a "maximally great being", i.e a being which possess all compossible perfections. Goodness is one of these perfections.

This is not a religious statement at all. You do not need to be a Christian to make that statement. It is a statement regarding what attributes God must possess. The word "God" simply represents that which we conceive is the greatest being that we can conceive of. One thing that such a being must necessarily possess is Goodness. This being must be All-Good, All-Powerful, etc. etc.

It is not a religious statement. Dr. Pigliucci understands this. He is a non-theist, not a theist.

I'm curious. Is this not a God that we have defined? How can you know that this is the being that you have experienced, or that this is the being that exists?

I ask because I note that omnipotence is defined differently in other religions. In ancient Egypt for example omnipotence referred to a deity whom could do whatever they wished, as it was not confined by anything.

Then someone asked if God could create a rock He couldn't lift, and the term omnipotence changed to a being who could do anything that was logically possible.

Then someone asked if God could lie, and the term omnipotence changed to a being who could do anything that was logically possible and that was within in Its nature.

Then someone asked "Well, what if it is God's nature to lie?" and the term "God" was defined as "A perfect God" which we then went on to define.

Seeing as we have given these definitions to ourselves to make the theological model work, how can we know that this is the God that actually exists?

 

[JGG]

Asking a Christian how they could tell if God was not lying to them is like asking someone how they could tell if a triangle was not a four sided shape.

The answer is found in understanding who God is in the same manner that the answer is found in understanding what a triangle is.

It shouldn't be. We defined the geometrical construct with three sides as a triangle. We know that there can be no four-sided triangles because that's not what we defined a triangle as. There are four-sided geometrical constructs, but we do not call them triangles, because they do not fit the definition we gave.

God, we are told, is a single being that exists, regardless of what we define, believe, or decide. How is it that God's nature has been defined in the same manner that a geometrical shape has been?

 

[KCfromNC]

Evidence that God is the reason people are able to make music would be asking for evidence that God exists which is a totally different topic and thus a red herring.

Then why did you bring it up?

I have no clue what you are talking about.

You have two beings

A - your god
B - a being with all the powers of your god, plus it is perfectly able and willing to deceive humans to get what it wants

B is obviously greater by the simple definition of the word - i.e. it has more attributes and powers. And I can conceive of it, since I'm writing about it. So B is a greater conceivable being than your god. And in the context of this thread and what you've contributed, if you accept the ontological argument, you've just shown us that B exists as god - and as part of its god-behavior is actively deceiving us.

 

[KCfromNC]

Why are you talking about god so much?

I wonder if people are fooling themselves when they dodge uncomfortable questions in this way or just think that they're clever enough that they're fooling everyone else.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

We know God can't lie because lying is a sin. God can NOT commit a sin. However, it's not illogical for one to say that "the reason God can't lie is because he cant lie".

It's not illogical, but it is tautologous. How do you know he cannot lie? How do you know he cannot sin? How do you know lying is a sin? Because God says so. God cannot lie because God says he cannot lie, and we can trust God because he cannot lie. Round and round the logic goes...

Why would this lead you to atheism?? If God is able to create a universe is it out of the realm of possibility that He couldn't lie? Its as if you are trying to equate God with common man. It would be silly to say that any man couldn't lie because he can't lie (because man CAN lie).

And why can't God? He said, in Ezekiel 29, that he'd lay Egypt to waste for 40 years, and yet that never happened. He said, in Ezekiel 26, that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre, yet it stands to this day.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

It's not illogical, but it is tautologous. How do you know he cannot lie? How do you know he cannot sin? How do you know lying is a sin? Because God says so. God cannot lie because God says he cannot lie, and we can trust God because he cannot lie. Round and round the logic goes...

Sinning would require God to break the moral law he created. Shouldn't we be asking whether God is bound to that moral law at all? After all, he isn't constrained by the physical law which he created, so why the moral one?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Sinning would require God to break the moral law he created. Shouldn't we be asking whether God is bound to that moral law at all? After all, he isn't constrained by the physical law which he created, so why the moral one?

This first requires answering the Euthyphro dilemma.

 

[Non sequitur]

Time. That is the only thing you need.

If the question was, "How do you climb a rope?", your response is ridiculous.

Can you elaborate, as the measuring of durations of events and the intervals between them is nonsensical.

 

[super animator]

We determine if a person is lying by comparing his claims to things that we deem "self-evident" truths and if the claim is false we compare the person to things that we deem "self -evident" to see if the person knows the truth, before he made the claim.
Essentially it comes down to two steps.
1. Determine if the claim that the person is making is false.
2. if the claim that the person is making is false, than determine if the person know prior to the claim.

There are some case where the person is telling the truth, but things that we used to compare and treat it as "self-evident" are misleading/fabricated to point away from the truth and make the person to deemed a liar.

 

[juvenissun]

If the question was, "How do you climb a rope?", your response is ridiculous.

Can you elaborate, as the measuring of durations of events and the intervals between them is nonsensical.

There is no need to elaborate. When your time is up, you will tell. This is a guarantee.

It is possible, for you, the time has passed, since you have labelled yourself.

 

[discipulus]

I'm just curious.

I know theists assume their god is good, wrote/directly influenced the bible, talks to you, etc., but how would you know if your god was either evil or a trickster and lying?

For the carnal minded natural man, it is his working assumption that something can only be known via natural means i.e. the sensory perception processes that occur in his brain.

For the spiritual man things can be known in the above manner as well as in an additional manner which takes place in his spirit. The faculty of the regenerate man with which he assimilates spiritual truths enables him to know spiritual truths whereas the carnal or natural man is unable to due to him being spiritually dead.

So sir, when you, a natural carnal man ask how we who are spiritual can know something which takes place in the spiritual realm, you are asking for us to give you an answer that is natural. The answer is not a natural answer at all but a spiritual one. So you being carnal are unable to even understand or discern the concepts about which we speak.

1 Cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1 Cor 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Cor 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. .
1 Cor 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. .
1 Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. .
1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Cor 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Pay close attention to the underlined portion of the above text. It explains my point.

 

[KCfromNC]

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Cor 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Pay close attention to the underlined portion of the above text. It explains my point.

How can we test this idea and verify that it correctly describes reality?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

For the carnal minded natural man, it is his working assumption that something can only be known via natural means i.e. the sensory perception processes that occur in his brain.

For the spiritual man things can be known in the above manner as well as in an additional manner which takes place in his spirit. The faculty of the regenerate man with which he assimilates spiritual truths enables him to know spiritual truths whereas the carnal or natural man is unable to due to him being spiritually dead.

So sir, when you, a natural carnal man ask how we who are spiritual can know something which takes place in the spiritual realm, you are asking for us to give you an answer that is natural. The answer is not a natural answer at all but a spiritual one. So you being carnal are unable to even understand or discern the concepts about which we speak.

1 Cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1 Cor 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Cor 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. .
1 Cor 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. .
1 Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. .
1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Cor 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Pay close attention to the underlined portion of the above text. It explains my point.

It falsely excuses you from answering the question.

But suppose what you say is true. If someone deconverts, does the knowledge vanish from the person's head? We'd be able to test and analyse that, and by studying which knowledge vanishes, we could even prove that something supernatural is going on.

You may be of the opinion that True Christians never deconvert, and if someone does stray from the faith, then they were never True Christians to begin with - but in that case, you could distinguish a False Christian with a True Christian by the presence or absence of this knowledge.

So, which is it: does the knowledge vanish, or do False Christians never possess the knowledge? The distinction is not trivial, as the former will let us demonstrate the supernatural, the latter will let us distinguish between True and False Christians.

 

[discipulus]

How can we test this idea and verify that it correctly describes reality?

That is precisely my point, you being a natural/carnal man can't "test" what the scripture is referencing. You lack the faculty that would enable you to do so.