The black community

[Ken-1122]

You are missing the cumulative point: it isn't about a lack of black superheroes, it is about a culture that prides itself on being a melting pot, yet the artistic reflection of role models in this culture skew toward white superheroes - in other words, it is one sided. It is important, especially given that comics are geared toward a younger audience - more formidable minds.

didn’t Wesley Snipes and Will Smith play superheros?

But, it isn't restricted to just "superheroes." Movies' leading men/women are seldom Black, Latino, Asian, etc. - save the same recycled (and almost type-casted) actors like Denzel Washington, Will Smith, Michelle Rodriguez, Vin Diesel, Jamie Fox, Jet Li, Lucy Liu, Antonio Banderas, Salma Hayak, etc.

And, their characters are usually broken in some way - they are rarely all wholesome.

Most white actors play roles of people who are broken in some way and are rarely wholesome.

For example, out of all the powerfully positive roles Denzel Washington has played, he gets an Oscar for Best Actor playing a crooked cop that is in bed with drug dealers (Training Day.) Halle Berry wins Best Actress for playing a debased female who is sexualized to the point of absolute perversion (Monster's Ball.) Jamie Fox won the Oscar for Best Actor for playing a very dark and broken (yet triumphant) Ray Charles. And, Jamie Fox is still listed after Channing Tatum in the movie "White House Down." Actors are listed in order of prestige, especially in movie trailers (unless otherwise stated; ) Tatum has never won any academy awards. The aforementioned actors are the lucky few that actually won Oscars for leading actor/actress, despite their talent.

What about Will Smith? What about Eddie Murphy, Wesley Snipes, Morgan Freeman, Sidney Poitier, Bill Cosbey, etc; my point is, Black people are represented in Hollywood and the entertainment field much better than they are in the real world.
I think fixing the real world problems should have higher priority than what goes on in Hollywood; not to say there isn't discrimination against blacks in Hollywood, I don't know I am not there; but I do know when I look at movies, or TV I see more blacks represented as Doctors, Lawyers, Military leaders, Presidents of the USA, or other such professionals than I see in the real world. That is why I say the entertainment industry is the least of our problems.

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

Again, what makes 3/4 illegitimate babies "a *group_name* problem", but not....say, 1/4?

Your numbers are entirely arbitrary for justifying calling something a black problem or just "a problem".

It is a problem because the *group_name* lables it a problem.

Ken

 

[wintermile]

Everything you listed was going on 50 years ago; only worse. Your argument fails.

Ken

You misread my post. I did not discuss what happened 50 years ago. I briefly introduced what is happening now.

 

[Gadarene]

It is a problem because the *group_name* lables it a problem.

Ken

All of them, or some of them? What makes them representative of the whole?

 

[Lollerskates]

didn’t Wesley Snipes and Will Smith play superheros?


Most white actors play roles of people who are broken in some way and are rarely wholesome.


What about Will Smith? What about Eddie Murphy, Wesley Snipes, Morgan Freeman, Sidney Poitier, Bill Cosbey, etc; my point is, Black people are represented in Hollywood and the entertainment field much better than they are in the real world.
I think fixing the real world problems should have higher priority than what goes on in Hollywood; not to say there isn't discrimination against blacks in Hollywood, I don't know I am not there; but I do know when I look at movies, or TV I see more blacks represented as Doctors, Lawyers, Military leaders, Presidents of the USA, or other such professionals than I see in the real world. That is why I say the entertainment industry is the least of our problems.

Ken

I think this will be my final exchange with you. I don't think you are evil or anything; I just think you don't get it, especially since you don't have to.

 

[Strathos]

50 years ago, things were great for black and white Americans. Something happened during the 60's that turned this country upside down. Was it Malcom X, the rap music, movies, drugs, what was it?

Yes, Notedstrangeperson, thank you.

What I'm trying to figure out is how this all started, and what we as a country can do to fix the problem.

Say not thou, What is the cause that the former days were better than these? for thou dost not enquire wisely concerning this.

Seems appropriate.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

What about Will Smith? What about Eddie Murphy, Wesley Snipes, Morgan Freeman, Sidney Poitier, Bill Cosbey, etc; my point is, Black people are represented in Hollywood and the entertainment field much better than they are in the real world.

I think Ken11-22 has a point: along with his list I'd also add Jamie Foxx, Idris Elba, the late Michael Clarke Duncan, Denzel Washington, Samuel L. Jackson, Forest Whitaker and Michael K. Williams. There's hardly a lack of successful black actors in Hollywood and the media.

(Incidently there were a few attempts at black superheros from 1960-80s. The fact very few people remember them shows how successful they were.)

On the subject of movies:

I also wanted to add other films like Precious where actress Mo'nique won an Oscar for playing the most stereotypical role there is about black women. The "welfare queen/cheat" and abusive to boot. Let's not forget the recent Mammy 2.0 film The Help. I don't understand why so many people gush over that movie. Yet films like The Great Debaters aren't given their due. It just goes to show that things haven't really changed that much.

Well that's the problem: if we were to look at the recent history of black people (especially in the US) without mentioning the oppression they faced, it's as though we're deliberately ignoring it - but if we focus too much on black oppression, we're stereotyping.

 

[Cearbhall]

The first step in fixing a problem is by recognizing it first

And what exactly are you suggesting is the problem? Do you honestly think that the color of their skin is the cause of this? It's mostly about culture and income. You can't just say "Oh, there's a correlation, so we're going to call it the 'black problem' and get mad if anyone complains." The concept of "race" describes inherent physical traits that you're born with and that do not affect behavior. It has nothing to do with criminal activity or anything else.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Since we've already brought up Freakonomics it might be worth mentioning Roland G. Fryer. One of his ideas is one of the reasons black people do badly is because they want to avoid "acting white". Unfortunately acting white usually means doing things which would probably improve their lives - like getting good grades at school.

It's a pretty harsh conclusion; it suggests not only are most of the problems black people face are self-inflicted, but worse - that they are deliberately trying to avoid getting better. But we could hardly accuse him of racism; Fryer himself is a black man who, like a lot of young black men, came from a poor neighbourhood, an unstable family and got into trouble as a teen.

He also briefly mentions that effects of "acting white" also affects Hispanic students - Hispanics being another ethnic group who are worse-off than whites and Asians. In fact "acting white" seems to affect them more severely than black people.

 

[Cearbhall]

Again, what makes 3/4 illegitimate babies "a *group_name* problem", but not....say, 1/4?

Your numbers are entirely arbitrary for justifying calling something a black problem or just "a problem".

Not to mention, since when is it an official problem that they aren't married? The problem is when they can't afford the kid, which would be a lot of illegitimate babies (but not all) and some legitimate babies. "Illegitimate" can even describe a stable, long-term relationship.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

And what exactly are you suggesting is the problem? Do you honestly think that the color of their skin is the cause of this?

I don't think anybody here is arguing that.

Besides - the kind of people who thinks blacks are doing poorly because they are black have no interest in trying to improve their situation. As far as they're concern, they are doing poorly because they are "racially inferior" and nothing can be done about it.

So the very fact that people are asking what can be done to improve the lives of black people indicates they're probably not racists.

 

[Cearbhall]

I don't think anybody here is arguing that.

Besides - the kind of people who thinks blacks are doing poorly because they are black have no interest in trying to improve their situation. As far as they're concern, they are doing poorly because they are "racially inferior" and nothing can be done about it.

So the very fact that people are asking what can be done to improve the lives of black people indicates they're probably not racists.

I don't think that's what Ken is trying to say, either, but I'm trying to emphasize the difference between race and all of the factors that have caused this problem, such as culture and poverty. You can't just throw a biological or ancestral description into the mix and use that term in place of all these factors.

 

[intojoy]

Just a thought... If in sixty years this country will be predominantly Hispanic and we have an all Hispanic congress etc. how will that affect racism towards blacks? How do the cultures south of the border treat black people? Human beings are racist period. Like I've said I like black people for many reasons but I don't see it getting better once the Hispanics control everything and they will.

 

[Lollerskates]

Just a thought... If in sixty years this country will be predominantly Hispanic and we have an all Hispanic congress etc. how will that affect racism towards blacks? How do the cultures south of the border treat black people? Human beings are racist period. Like I've said I like black people for many reasons but I don't see it getting better once the Hispanics control everything and they will.

Racism is not the correct word. Racism implies power to substantiate your prejudice and bigotry. I wish people would truly understand this (and, this comment was not a dig at you.)

Human beings are prejudiced, period. We have the luxury of pre-judging everything. Humans are not inherently "racist," because the power to substantiate our prejudices isn't afforded to every single human in every single situation. There is a lot of energy needed that causes one to be "racist," and you need the right ingredients. For example, a Japanese person can be racist toward a Chinese person in Japan. An Australian person can be racist toward aboriginals in Australia. A British person can be racist toward an Indian in the U.K. Why? It is about power and control.


It goes much deeper than which race will be the majority, and how it will affect said "race."

 

[Ken-1122]

You misread my post. I did not discuss what happened 50 years ago. I briefly introduced what is happening now.

Well then you must have misread everything before commenting, because the person I was debating with was claiming black people had it much better 50 yrs ago than today. I was refuting that claim.

K

 

[Ken-1122]

All of them, or some of them? What makes them representative of the whole?

The ones who call themselves leaders recognize it as a problem, they just don't spend much effort addressing that problem.

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

I think this will be my final exchange with you. I don't think you are evil or anything; I just think you don't get it, especially since you don't have to.

I think I do. I understand there is a lack of black superhero's in the comic world, I just don't agree that it is a major problem. If getting our first black president doesn't help fix anything, what makes you think Marvel Comics getting some superhero's who are black is gonna do anything? Yeah it may get a few more black people reading those comic books and attending those movies, the way more blacks got involved in voting with the black president or more blacks play tennis and golf with Tiger Woods and the William sisters; but that doesn't fix the real problem because the real problem can't be fixed by what white people do, it has to be fixed by what black people do; and until black people can change their attitudes towards glamorizing "thug life" villifying those who do attempt to susceed within the system as "acting white" and turning a blind eye to irresponsible behavior such as babies out of wedlock, nothing will ever get fixed.

Ken
PS I realize that was your last post; nice debating with you

 

[Ken-1122]

Racism is not the correct word. Racism implies power to substantiate your prejudice and bigotry. I wish people would truly understand this (and, this comment was not a dig at you.)

Actually racism has nothing to do with power; it is about believing one race is inferior or superior than another. Some of the most racist people have the least amount of power.

Ken

 

[Lollerskates]

Actually racism has nothing to do with power; it is about believing one race is inferior or superior than another. Some of the most racist people have the least amount of power.

Ken

That is incorrect sociologically. If someone calls me a "**gger," they are not racist, because the sole act of them calling me a **gger does not affect my financial, legislative, economic or executive progress. Those people would be bigots, ignorant, or prejudiced.


Now, if someone says that "I am a **gger, and **ggers can't work here, or if I am beaten because I am "black," or some similar power, then that is racist.

You can be the most prejudiced layperson, but if you have no means to substantiate your claims, then you are just a talking head exposing yourself. Racism is about power. Prejudice, bigotry and ignorance can be racism without power, which means it is just bigotry, prejudice and ignorance.

A Police officer can be racist in terms of "stop and frisk." Police officers have [civil] power.

 

[Ken-1122]

That is incorrect sociologically. If someone calls me a "**gger," they are not racist, because the sole act of them calling me a **gger does not affect my financial, legislative, economic or executive progress. Those people would be bigots, ignorant, or prejudiced.


Now, if someone says that "I am a **gger, and **ggers can't work here, or if I am beaten because I am "black," or some similar power, then that is racist.

You can be the most prejudiced layperson, but if you have no means to substantiate your claims, then you are just a talking head exposing yourself. Racism is about power. Prejudice, bigotry and ignorance can be racism without power, which means it is just bigotry, prejudice and ignorance.

A Police officer can be racist in terms of "stop and frisk." Police officers have [civil] power.

People do not become racist via their job discription; (Today he is a racist because he is a cop, yesterday he was unemployed so he was not a racist) people become racist because what they believe. Grab a dictionary and look up the definition of the word if you don't believe me. Do you really believe black policemen involved in "stop and frisk" are racist against themselves?

K