Icons and the last few years on CF

[Torah Lishmah]

This is only my 2nd WW3! Under the first one I seem to recall that such changes could not be made because of complications with the software package that is being used.

Avodat and his abbreviations [can't think of the correct word at the moment]. I'm constantly web searching for their meanings. Anyway, what is "WW3?"

I could easily whip up a script for that function regardless of any perceived complications with the server side software.

 

[Avodat]

Avodat and his abbreviations [can't think of the correct word at the moment]. I'm constantly web searching for their meanings. Anyway, what is "WW3?"

I could easily whip up a script for that function regardless of any perceived complications with the server side software.

Lol! World War 3 (WW3) Sure feels like it at times!!

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

This forum seeks to include as many Torah observant folks as possible irrespective of their brand or organizational affiliations

Ok there is a difference between Torah observant folks and what Messianic Judaism(UMJC and MJAA) would say about Torah observant folks. What I mean is Messianic Judaiam is in line with Judaism in regards to Torah observant folks. What I'm saying is Messianic Judaism doesn't promote Torah observance for non Jews. I'm not pushing anything here I'm just providing a FACT. Therefore a forum called Messianic Judaism which promotes Torah for all is contrary to Messianic Judaism(which would be in line with Judaism).

I'm NOT saying there is anything wrong or right with Torah for all. What I'm saying is that isn't Messianic Judaism. Now we have up define what is meant Torah for all. Messianic Judaism has written papers about this. This means that Torah isn't applied the same manner to Jews and Gentiles. A UMJC rabbi in California responded when asked about a non Jew in a Messianic Jewish synagogue wearing tzizit as an example....

"We discourage it because it is a sign of the Jewish covenant (Num.15)."

And when asked about equal non Jewish obligation...

"We are obviously all equal before God through Yeshua but there clearly is different obligations...cf. brit milah, tzitzit, shabbat just to name three."

I don't want to mention the Rabbi's name publically but if anyone is involved in a UMJC California you would know the congregation.

Again I'm just showing facts what Messianic Judaism is in regards to non Jews. There are groups that are called Messianic Believers which would promote Torah equally for all.

 

[Torah Lishmah]

Lol! World War 3 (WW3) Sure feels like it at times!!

That was my first guess, but it doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of the comment. I must be having comprehension problems today.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I think the forum's timeline would easily demonstrate that there has been more of a One Law revival, and there has been a strong reaction to that. The invasion really came about from the One Law'ers, who really haven't clearly explained in concrete terms what exactly their gripe is anyway.

Pretty much - as the history is interesting.

Ok there is a difference between Torah observant folks and what Messianic Judaism(UMJC and MJAA) would say about Torah observant folks. What I mean is Messianic Judaiam is in line with Judaism in regards to Torah observant folks. What I'm saying is Messianic Judaism doesn't promote Torah observance for non Jews. I'm not pushing anything here I'm just providing a FACT. Therefore a forum called Messianic Judaism which promotes Torah for all is contrary to Messianic Judaism(which would be in line with Judaism).

I'm NOT saying there is anything wrong or right with Torah for all. What I'm saying is that isn't Messianic Judaism. Now we have up define what is meant Torah for all. Messianic Judaism has written papers about this. This means that Torah isn't applied the same manner to Jews and Gentiles. A UMJC rabbi in California responded when asked about a non Jew in a Messianic Jewish synagogue wearing tzizit as an example....

"We discourage it because it is a sign of the Jewish covenant (Num.15)."

And when asked about equal non Jewish obligation...

"We are obviously all equal before God through Yeshua but there clearly is different obligations...cf. brit milah, tzitzit, shabbat just to name three."

I don't want to mention the Rabbi's name publically but if anyone is involved in a UMJC California you would know the congregation.

Again I'm just showing facts what Messianic Judaism is in regards to non Jews. There are groups that are called Messianic Believers which would promote Torah equally for all.

Good points.

When it comes to Torah Observance, all Messianic Gentiles need to be honest on the fact that they were never commanded in the early Jewish Body of Believers to do certain things - and that's something well noted in the Mainstream Messianic Judaism movement for today. If a Messianic Gentile wishes to talk all day about other Messianics not being "observant" according to Messianic Judaism, then there needs to be consistency in noting that their own stance of "observant" doesn't line up with the original groups in Modern Messianic Judaism which they eventually switched from to do their own thing....

Be it with others such as Dan Juster of Tikkun Ministries or the UMJC or MJAA and other groups, people in the world of Messianic Judaism have long noted what it means to be observant - and if others wish to disagree, by all means do so....but there's no room for saying that others who disagreed with them are now "off" for not following with newer/different views on what it meant to be Torah Observant.

And again, as other Messianic Jews have noted, Gentiles aren't showing themselves more observant by pushing things that the Jewish people were called to in distinction... like circumcision or DEMANDING all Gentiles in the Messianic world look/act like Jews in order to be approved before the Lord - and Paul was not for that either in Galatians 2-4.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I agree. There seems to be a lot of heat coming from some people about not mixing it with the Gentile religions (eg. anti-Church in particular comes to mind). Knowing that it's easy to understand why some of us get confused by the statements I referred to.

Some things can take a good bit of time to understand fully as it concerns the roots behind actions...

 

[Avodat]

That was my first guess, but it doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of the comment. I must be having comprehension problems today.

They are annual occurrences - usually about this time of the year!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The diversity of the MJ forum is merely a reflection of what's out there. Trying to make it one version over another is quite pointless and ultimately futile, as beliefs tend to change quit a bit person to person. I personally prefer diversity, and think attempts to hijack the forum in the name of any one interpretation to be poor form.
.

Diversity - if that is really the end goal - for MJ life is a good thing that brings a lot of wonderful aspects to discussion and real demonstration of how others live life....and when it comes to differences, so long as people can learn to disagree agreeably, that's cool.

Everyone here is akin to coming to the neighborhood playground from differing parts of the hood - and learning to share space. If you're a Trekkie/into Star Trek, one can see example of the battles here in that of the Xindi - one species where there were differing groups - yet all being forced to be under the same umbrella while having to work together for preservation.

Yes- there will always be other forums for people to go to, but likewise this forum has accommodated both One Law'ers and more mainstream folks by creating sub-forums for each group's particular needs. Why people refuse to use them is really the question no one is asking

Truthfully, it's easier to go to the main forum and take topics there when it comes to debate on Torah or Torah-related issues....and that's something that can be a hard habit to break - especially when discussions sometimes tend to break out in fellowship threads without warning....or, when someone makes a comment on how a topic (like proper hair grooming for example) reminds them of Torah instruction and another says "I didn't really consider it as such", the door is opened for back-and-forth dialogue and eventually it's back to debate on the details of observation.

Some things just tend to slip in easily - and with that, what may make a difference is simply being more quick to report when a Topic on Torah/Debate comes up and asking it to be placed in the appropriate forum immediately before things get too extensive. Enforcement can help make that a reality - and if wanting to alter the SOP, then it should be noted in the SOP that others feeling topics in the main forum to not be appropriate for the MAIN Forum should 1.) Give an indicator of why you feel a topic may not be best suited somewhere ..and 2.) Be respectful in your addressment rather than accusatory (i.e. "You INTENTIONALLY knew this didn't belong here!!!"/ascribing negative motives without warrant)..and 3.) Ask one of the Mods to examine/place a thread in one of the Sub-Forums for discussion to continue ...

If the main is to be solely for fellowship topics, it should be just for that - and not allowed to veer off course, regardless of who that may be.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

We've had all kinds here, and years ago One Law'ers were hardly represented. Most of the posters here have historically been mainstream MJ with a charismatic or evangelical underlying theology. The whole "Observant" thing (whatever that means in real terms) is pretty recent.

The issue is completely a waste of time. No one really wants to address the brass tacks here- what does it mean to be Torah observant? If someone says "well, you don't need tzitzis" another will accuse him or her of being "against Torah". This is fanatic madness and it needs to stop. We're being asked to turn on each other like the Muslims do over the laws of the religion. I'm against tearing communities apart for religion.

In Torah, there is a learning curve and observance is very much a matter of personal development and choice. I hate to say it but many of the Gentile posters here just don't seem to understand that, nor do many want it. They tend to bring the denominational mentality of the Western church into MJism- that is, they want written rules and complete conformity and they want it immediately for all. "Our way or the Highway". Posters from Jewish backgrounds tend to see this as folly, trust me. We all talk to each other and we all are pretty mystified at the spectacle that goes on when this topic rears it head. Whether we're MJ or RJ we tend to see this whole kvetch as ridiculous. We tend to see the value of the Torah but also know the being frum is not easy. What's more, is that we tend to bring the tolerance of our way of life into our MJism, so all this fighting and condemnation just seems so...unJewish/unChristian.

Fact: pretty much everyone regular posting here believes in the Torah, its relevance, and its immutable authority. The conversation should therefore always only focus on continuing dialogue on how the Torah is lived in this life. Rather than kick each other- how about supporting each other?

Thank you for addressing the core of the issue - as it makes a difference seeing it as you noted.

What's ironic in all of the debates on Torah Observance is that many of those doing so act out of a desire to reach out to the Jewish people - seeking to make them jealous/help them come to salvation in the Messiah due to thinking they'll want to listen when they see Gentiles observing in the same ways as they do. And yet, although the desire for doing so may be noble, it is still problematic when all of that is accompanied by the continual denouncements from Messianic Gentiles toward other Messianic Gentiles whom they feel are either "too little" a Messianic or "less" of one.

And many Messianic Jews sit back noting that no attempts at observance were the focus of what would lead to them being won over to Messiah - or winning over their non-believing Jewish brothers/sisters - and they also noted that just because non-believing Jews wanted Gentiles ( doing things akin to conversion over to Judaism/becoming like the Jews ) doesn't mean it was a good thing in the end when Gentiles get so wrapped up in thinking "observance - who observes less than I" that they end up observing the wrong things...and forgetting that the REAL Goal of Messianic Judaism was reflected in simply proclaiming Christ the Messiah.

What the Messianic Jewish movement was originally about was on OUTREACH to the Jewish people - and although many Gentiles claim they seek to observe in order to win the hearts of Jews, I think they end up missing the mark due to not remembering what the founders of modern Messianic Judaism noted when it came to seeing what truly wins the Jewish people to Messiah - and that is promoting the Gospel of Yeshua/Christ to the world. There were several good threads on the issue which I thought were good for reference (some which can be found if choosing to go here to #50 ) :

• Jews for Jesus?
• Missionary Work in NY ( #16 )
• Recovering Baptist- need some help

As said before elsewhere, with many Jewish families, the NT as you know bids Christians to provoke the Jews to religious jealousy. If interested, one of the Jewish believers I've kept up with did a rather interesting piece on what jealousy could be...and how it's possibly misunderstood. For more, here's the article by one who's an Eastern Catholic Jew (and who has worked with Messianic fellowships).....and to see what she said, one can go online/look it up under the following:

• The Faithfulness of Israel | The Groom's Family ( )
• The Faithfulness of Israel II | The Groom's Family ( )

For the amount of Jewish people who are coming to Christ in droves from all kinds of backgrounds---be it in the U.S or Israel and other places globally--- it is interesting to see the developments.

What provoked/MADE them jealous was seeing the simple LOVE and POWER TO BE Delivered from bondages that made them realize how real Christ was. In example, when you're dealing with Crack-Cocaine addictions or caught in prostitution, it doesn't matter to many whether you're "Messianic" or not since they're looking to know whether or not someone truly loves them and can give them hope. To see the kind of love that Yeshua showed others who were often deemed untouchable by others in the Jewish religious leadership (Luke 14, Luke 15, Matthew 8, John 8, etc), it was his radical mindset toward interaction that got their attention.....and for many Jews who are agnostic, they're actually tired of much of the debates about what is or isn't "Jewish." They grew up in many differing camps of Judaism---and many times, though their parents/community were serious about what they believed, it simply wasn't something that they felt fulfillment in....till they came to fall in love with the Grace/Truth revealed in Christ (John 1).

The Gospel is what must be central....but, many Messianics don't even preach the Gospel. Rather, they're happy just "keeping" the Torah and "getting back to their roots" /comparing themselves with others on who is or isn't more observant - which is unwise according to Paul:

2 Corinthians 10:12
For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
2 Corinthians 10:11-13 / 2 Corinthians 10
​

Romans 12:3 [ Serve God with Spiritual Gifts ] For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
Romans 12:2-4

​

There's little time for in-fighting within the Body of Messiah if we're to represent for the Lord - and many Messianics do themselves and the Body a disservice by always fighting amongst one another in who can or can't be dominant in voice when what matters is making the voice of the Messiah dominant. It'll always be the centrality of Christ - with any talk of observing Torah being secondary to that/connected with presenting His work on the Cross and via His Resurrection - that will truly show what Messianic Judaism is about...

One of the ladies in my fellowship who's Jewish had this experience with her mother - who sworn growing up she could never be a Christian since she was Jewish (and in her mind, to be Christian - as she had seen it growing up - meant that you had to reject being Jewish) - and on her deathbed, she had prayed/asked the Lord to reveal Himself to her....and she died in peace accepting that Christ was the Messiah. Amazing to see what went down - and that at the end of the day, it wasn't discussion on Torah alone that won her heart - or discussion on Jewish customs.

It was studying who the man known as Yeshua was all about - and that is what she needed to truly be Jewish as the Lord always intended.

Can you imagine what would've happened if the centrality of the Gospel was not kept central for many Jews who came to faith? The Body would be diminished - you'd not hear of others, for example, like the author of "Tortured for Christ" Rev. Richard Wurmbrand (who is known in differing Messianic Jewish circles due to how he spoke in them often as an international Messianic Jewish leader in the body, more here and here, #231 /#235 )...

I'm truly taken about by how many Jews noted that what brought them to YESHUA was seeing the love and compassion shown to them by believers. One Messianic Jew noted how he was challenged to dare trusting in Yeshua even though he used to say he didn't need that - as something simply wouldn't let him have peace in thinking only Gentiles needed to have Yeshua or that Gentiles were "crazy" for trusting in Christ.


For another example, I'm reminded of Rabbi Baruch Rubin - president of Messianic Jewish Communications and Rabbi of Emmanuel Messianic Jewish Congregation , both of Clarksville, Maryland. His story stands out to me when seeing what it was that impacted him to trusting Yeshua ..and in his words (for brief excerpt):

One day, I had had enough. I went up to Loren (a tall Swede) and said, "What is it about you that makes you so ‘blankety-blank' happy." (My speech was rather salty in those days.) Without blinking an eye, he said, "Your Messiah lives in my heart."

"What," I challenged, "is my Messiah doing living in your heart? And who is my Messiah, by the way, and what's he doing in your heart, anyway?" It was then that I learned the secret of Loren's peace. He told me that Jesus was my Messiah and that He lived in his heart (an expression that really sounded strange, especially when I thought about it literally). But he told me that Jesus was a Jew who came to the Jewish people to bring them back to God, and that he could do the same for me. None of it made any sense to me, but I was provoked to jealousy and later became a follower of the Messiah, too. How can you provoke your Jewish neighbor to jealousy? With your life, your love and your language. Loren's life reflected a calm that I hadn't seen anywhere around me. His love for me was sincere and I felt it. And his language was sensitive. He was willing to talk "my" language. If he had said he "knew Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior," I would have said, "Well, that's good for you. You're a Christian. That's what you're supposed to do." But he stepped into my world by speaking about my Messiah. He used language that would get my attention and provoke me to jealousy.
​

Powerful!!!

 

[dnc101]

That seems to be addressing a complaint that hasn't been the main focus of the thread, but...

Actually the idea of allowing more privileges for Jewish posters is a hot topic here- mostly for doing something, this was my idea of what.

..that could work.

Don't act so surprised!

Having been a mod on more than one forum I can say that this doesn't actually work in practice. Mods needs to act on a case-by-case basis and take into consideration many factors.

I can see that, and agree. You can only apply one boot to one butt at one time; the other must be placed firmly on the ground or you loose your base. When that happens, you'd fall.

Overly-strict mods are often manipulated by serial reporters, who usually have their own barrow to push. You find that in a Christian setting people usually settle down with a warning and some counsel.

You don't have to be overly strict nor allow yourself to be manipulated. But they do need to know you mean business.

But, I concur that the SoP doesn't need constant re-working. I think forum education (eg. letting people know what sections are appropriate for their posts, what is acceptable to post etc) works charms. It's about how the forum is used and how the rules accommodate posters without stifling opinions to the point of creating a place that is an homage to boredom and conformity.

That's all well and good. But there has to be guidelines in place and people have to follow them or you have chaos. Being lax may be good for a time, and even desirable while it is working. But there will always be those who will take advantage of anything they perceive as weakness.

We just saw this on a large scale here. At those times, serious admin action is the only thing that will prevent our descending into the kind of chaos the intruders want. Out of chaos comes change, and they want to be the new order of things. But after the battle to change is won, there is always the battle to see who will have their way in the new order. Lenin had most of the leaders of the revolution killed because he wanted to put his idea of the new order in place, and he didn't want any leadership for a counter-revolution left to spoil things. It is always the case- unless someone in authority steps in and nips the problem in the bud when it starts.

The SoP ain't broke. Maybe a little cosmetic surgery is all that is needed- then drop the hammer on the chaos crowd and let's get on with discussion and seeking new insights and clarity.

Dan C

edit:

They are annual occurrences - usually about this time of the year!

Well that's just wonderful news- must be the heat!

So one more suggestion; maybe the mods could all turn off their a/c. It would make 'em mean! Then sick 'em on the chaos crowd!

 

[Lulav]

I can't believe everyone is still going on about their agenda and has ignored what Tishri1 Simplified and asked for thoughts on.

Main forum:

• Members need to fellowship and post Torah positive , no debate or negative posts about members observance or torah (This post below is a perfect example of torah negative)

• Also most want non members to be restricted to a single thread for questions and also restrict them from reporting in here

• Looks like most want our Regular Jewish posters to be active members

Subforum:

• And adding a debate forum with a nice name

This sounds perfect to me Tish, simple and easy to follow.

19th July 2013 02:49 AM Tishri1 Main forum:

• Members need to fellowship and post Torah positive , no debate or negative posts about members observance or torah (This post below is a perfect example of torah negative)

I think discussion on certain Torah points should be allowed such as the finer points, but no accusations that they aren't doing it right.

19th July 2013 02:49 AM Tishri1

• Also most want non members to be restricted to a single thread for questions and also restrict them from reporting in here

I truly think this would be best, that way those seeking can look and see what others have asked and we don't spend time answering the same questions over and over. It will also serve to keep those who just come in here to be antagonistic under the cover of 'fellowship and asking questions' to not be allowed to cause disruption.

19th July 2013 02:49 AM Tishri1

• Looks like most want our Regular Jewish posters to be active members

I think that our Regular Jewish poster are already active enough, but they too should also be under the ruling of not posting against keeping Torah by the Gentiles or asking questions that are presumptive of making the members feel they aren't doing it 'right'.

I really believe that our main forum needs to be for main discussion amongst the membership. Having those others really isn't helping any. It seems from the times I've been in them they are being used more to support separation than anything.

19th July 2013 02:49 AM Tishri1
Subforum:

• And adding a debate forum with a nice name

This is much better than the Torah keepers forum. I would suggest that in the rules for that forum that guests would be allowed to open up a thread where they can debates Torah observance but must be respectful. For the members it could be on levels of observance and the one law two law.

Possible names, not catchy, but descriptive;

Torah Deliberation - A forum for both members and non-members to intelligently discuss matters concerning the Laws of G-d

Torah Awareness - A place where gentle debate can be held between members of the MJ forum and other members of CF; to bring about understanding of G-d Holy Laws.

How's that?

 

[Tishri1]

Hi Tishri,

I have a simple question for you. Is there any way you could see fit to add a thread title prefix [like the "MJ Only" prefix] to where Jews can express their Judaism without any restraint, or paranoia? Of course, Messianics & Christians would be able to post in those threads as well, for obvious reasons. Perhaps it could read "Jews Invited" or something similar? Thank you.

Yeah but it looks like we want all the regulars to be members. That's what I'm hearing any way

I think the only restraint will be telling the MJs theirs is not an acceptable Judiasm but that and of course protelitizing would be the main things staff worry about anyway

 

[Tishri1]

A forum of their own wont work we did that and it creates problems with the other groups who want their own forum too


Who do you propose we get to kindly wear those big boots

Tishri, you said you'd like to keep it simple. I'm a simple kind of guy, so let's simplify:

The only real need for change I see is to allow Jewish posters to answer questions openly and honestly without being censured. Just add a clause to this effect into the SoP and everything will be good.

If you want Jewish posters to have unrestricted privileges (and I support this), create a forum for them.

Now, here's the really simple part- in both the MJ and Jewish fora (if you decide to have one), the key to making it work is NOT in rewriting the SoP semiannually- it is in having a real butt-head poised at the other end of the report button! I'm serious, someone needs to be a stickler for the rules and just downright ornery with violators! Otherwise, if they think they can violate with impunity violators will try to do just that. Recent events prove this. A little discernment, a kind hand, but a heavy boot a good moderator doth make.

Simple.

Dan C

Oh, and a lot of hard work- thanks for yours! Same to everyone behind the scenes here.

 

[visionary]

I can't believe everyone is still going on about their agenda and has ignored what Tishri1 Simplified and asked for thoughts on.

This sounds perfect to me Tish, simple and easy to follow.

I think discussion on certain Torah points should be allowed such as the finer points, but no accusations that they aren't doing it right.


I truly think this would be best, that way those seeking can look and see what others have asked and we don't spend time answering the same questions over and over. It will also serve to keep those who just come in here to be antagonistic under the cover of 'fellowship and asking questions' to not be allowed to cause disruption.

I think that our Regular Jewish poster are already active enough, but they too should also be under the ruling of not posting against keeping Torah by the Gentiles or asking questions that are presumptive of making the members feel they aren't doing it 'right'.

I really believe that our main forum needs to be for main discussion amongst the membership. Having those others really isn't helping any. It seems from the times I've been in them they are being used more to support separation than anything.

This is much better than the Torah keepers forum. I would suggest that in the rules for that forum that guests would be allowed to open up a thread where they can debates Torah observance but must be respectful. For the members it could be on levels of observance and the one law two law.

Possible names, not catchy, but descriptive;

Torah Deliberation - A forum for both members and non-members to intelligently discuss matters concerning the Laws of G-d

Torah Awareness - A place where gentle debate can be held between members of the MJ forum and other members of CF; to bring about understanding of G-d Holy Laws.

How's that?

I like those names.

 

[Tishri1]

Thanks for the clarification. IMO and experience there is no where near a collective "conscience" (for lack of a better word) on what Noachidism is nor what Noachides should/shouldn't do. There are schizoid components from within and without the structure.

FWIW, the strongest incorrect consideration of your previous statement was the usage of "control". Maybe you meant something else, but that's what stuck out to me. I understand now that this is what you have gained from experience, and once again, can state unequivocally that it's an interesting perspective. It just isn't universal.

Very glad to hear that!

 

[anisavta]

So one more suggestion; maybe the mods could all turn off their a/c. It would make 'em mean! Then sick 'em on the chaos crowd!

Forget the chaos crowd - sic em' on those here who after Tish closed everything down to get us back on track, have taken back up like there was no break. "Uh what was that buzz? Dunno, but as I was sayin'... blah blah blah." Until some of our regulars learn to follow the rules, how do we expect anyone else to?

 

[Tishri1]

Exactly!

That seems to be addressing a complaint that hasn't been the main focus of the thread, but...



..that could work.


Having been a mod on more than one forum I can say that this doesn't actually work in practice. Mods needs to act on a case-by-case basis and take into consideration many factors. Overly-strict mods are often manipulated by serial reporters, who usually have their own barrow to push. You find that in a Christian setting people usually settle down with a warning and some counsel.

But, I concur that the SoP doesn't need constant re-working. I think forum education (eg. letting people know what sections are appropriate for their posts, what is acceptable to post etc) works charms. It's about how the forum is used and how the rules accommodate posters without stifling opinions to the point of creating a place that is an homage to boredom and conformity.

 

[Tishri1]

In other words, just forget all Messianic Judaism to be represented here. It aint gonna happen..You are going to have this forum for one law Messianics to freely speak, and all other minded Messianics just need to accept they will be suppressed. :o

It means quit the disruption already

Your obviously some what Torah observant.... respect that in others and stay out of threads where you are in disagreement with

Quit telling then they are wrong for wanting to live with more Torah than you

 

[dnc101]

I can't believe everyone is still going on about their agenda and has ignored what Tishri1 Simplified and asked for thoughts on.

So you are saying "stop the chaos!" You'd really deny us all our endless arguments? That's just plain mean, and misses Tishri's point entirely! She is trying to corral all the chaos in one place!!!

WTG Tish!

Dan C

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I like those names.

Ditto - as the concept would open up a lot more things in terms of dialogue.