Icons and the last few years on CF

[Tishri1]

Hi,

It seems a few here are concerned about members who attend both MJ congregations and another church of a different denomination

Everyone is wondering if this is ok?

It is and staff have been operating this way for years at CF

How we keep the confusion down, is to have the member either tote the MJ icon or have their title announce that they are MJ or their siggy.

Bottom line is somewhere in view of all their posts , we need to be able to identify them as MJ

 

[dodari]

Hi,

It seems a few here are concerned about members who attend both MJ congregations and another church of a different denomination

Everyone is wondering if this is ok?

It is and staff have been operating this way for years at CF

How we keep the confusion down, is to have the member either tote the MJ icon or have their title announce that they are MJ or their siggy.

Bottom line is somewhere in view of all their posts , we need to be able to identify them as MJ

Who is the "we" you mention here?

 

[anisavta]

Along with this, is it possible to make it mandatory that everyone must have an icon of some sort and the only way one can change from another icon to MJ is by an MJ or MJ understanding mod approval? In other words make it hard to icon hop.

 

[dnc101]

It seems a few here are concerned about members who attend both MJ congregations and another church of a different denomination

I haven't been here all that long, I realize. But the main problem I saw recently, and the main complaint, was the influx of people either with the wrong icon (in their case some kind of Messianic icon) or a wrong icon (a mainstream icon) teaching, debating, asking questions designed to either cause arguments or arguments camouflaged with a question mark.

I'm not a believer in coincidences on the scale of this "mainstream scourge" we just experienced. I am one who attends a mainstream church every Sunday (AoG), and everyone there knows I am Messianic. Everyone here knows I attend there regularly, and I've never experienced any censuring for this. There are also some mainstream posters and Jewish posters whose input here is valued despite having an "incorrect" faith icon.

I'd say your problem is more the dishonesty of some who hold decidedly mainstream views coming here under any guise and disrupting the forum.

Dan C

 

[yedida]

I absolutely agree with all the responses.
It may be okay with the mods for those not holding an MJ icon to come in here teaching and debating according to the specific MJ SoP....but I've been told by two mods that just because someone flies the "proper" icon, or says they follow Messianic Judaism, it is NOT okay to teach/debate against the commonly held tenets of this forum which are spelled out in our SoP.
If this is correct, then we have had and continue to have numerous fly-bys, and quite a few long-standing "regular" posters who are breaking this rule.

 

[Avodat]

We know that some MJ's work in Church circles and it can be a difficult call as to which icon should be used. But, as Scripture says: by their fruit you will know them. If we know that is a person's calling and they are clearly MJ then we need have no worries - their 'name' can be added to the 'regular poster' list.

No matter what icon is being used, whether an icon of convenience or a regular icon, we (meaning the agreed regular users on here (Jews & gentiles) whose 'names' could be incorporated in the rules as 'regular posters' so people know who we are) must be able to call time on their posting rights if they are breaking the rules, as those rules, in fact, currently allow; if not, why have the rules in the first place?

 

[yedida]

We know that some MJ's work in Church circles and it can be a difficult call as to which icon should be used. But, as Scripture says: by their fruit you will know them. If we know that is a person's calling and they are clearly MJ then we need have no worries - their 'name' can be added to the 'regular poster' list.

No matter what icon is being used, whether an icon of convenience or a regular icon, we (meaning the agreed regular users on here (Jews & gentiles) whose 'names' could be incorporated in the rules as 'regular posters' so people know who we are) must be able to call time on their posting rights if they are breaking the rules, as those rules, in fact, currently allow; if not, why have the rules in the first place?

Check your PMs.

 

[dodari]

We know that some MJ's work in Church circles and it can be a difficult call as to which icon should be used. But, as Scripture says: by their fruit you will know them. If we know that is a person's calling and they are clearly MJ then we need have no worries - their 'name' can be added to the 'regular poster' list.

No matter what icon is being used, whether an icon of convenience or a regular icon, we (meaning the agreed regular users on here (Jews & gentiles) whose 'names' could be incorporated in the rules as 'regular posters' so people know who we are) must be able to call time on their posting rights if they are breaking the rules, as those rules, in fact, currently allow; if not, why have the rules in the first place?

In this MJ forum it seems rules are only to be broken.

It would be helpful if the church circlers would identify which 'Church circles' they work in. Should be required to so state. Like a cat with a little bell on its collar.

With respect, it strikes me that your suggestion is 'Loose as goose', as they say.

Just saying. Doesn't matter, nothing of great import happens here anyway that I'd care to share at the traditional synagogues I go to nor the reservations we try to share at.

Yeah, I have a couple of pastors I've found where it's safe to be a Jew that doesn't cave to the fouled up history of the church, but extremely few.

Don't mean to offend but I don't see much hope for this MJ forum to be very useful. Seems to always culminate in a war of egos. It stinks!

Structural Engineers ought to be considered as religious leaders, we have to make bridges and buildings stand up in the real/unreal world.

Gotta travel half way up the U.S. very soon, probably out 'til late tonight.

 

[Yahudim]

So, this is where I get to eat crow! - again!

In the nine years I have been hanging around this place, I have personally not been aware of anyone having debating and teaching privileges in a forum where they did not have a suitable icon, with the notable exception of GT and the like.

To bolster that perception, I can dredge up numerous staff posts that cite these very rules to visitors; the Christian, Jew, Hebrew Christian, 'Messianic', etc., that come here to set us straight on Torah Observance: "Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not."

I cannot find a single staff post indicating that it is OK for others to do otherwise, though I have been assured that they exist. I have asked one of these multi-membership posters on several occasions to post a link to the one that he claims exists, but despite his many links to teachings contrary to our SoP and Torah Observance, he has yet to produce one from the staff on this topic. So you can see why I am confused about this whole mess, right?

Now there is this, the Big Reveal! Yay!!!

I pointed out repeatedly that there is a basic doctrinal difference between mainstream Christian dogma and that of Torah observant Messianic Judaism. That this is the "core beliefs and teachings" of our SoP. I get censured by the staff for starting a 'call out' thread. Some members have engage in a character assassination campaign, both implying and stating outright my supposed disdain for Christians and Jews - when I am talking about the forum rules, not how a person chooses to worship. But the staff has been quiet as a church mouse about that. No wonder!

Nonetheless, I have made false accusations. I accused former members of this forum, now members of mainstream Christian forums, of debating and teaching here against the rules. Now I find that, even though the rules are written one way, they are evidently interpreted another. So I was wrong and therefore must apologize for not being psychic.

This is me, dusting my sandals at the threshold. I doubt that my character or my intentions will ever be rehabilitated from the slander or the staff's inaction in the face of it. I have been attacked as anti-Christian, anti-Messianic and anti-Semite for pointing out the anti-Torah teachings these guys are linking and what icons they display while debating in a Torah Observant forum. I have had my motives and stability questioned publically (nothing against that in the rules I guess).

You say that you, "honor those who attend a denomination and restrict subjects based on core teaching". That's not something I've actually seen. But good luck with that. Sorry I won't be staying around long enough for you guys to get around to it. Or maybe that's just more 'behind the scenes' stuff that we won't ever get to see.

So much for the safe haven for the Torah Observant Gentile. Links to Derek Leman? Really? In this forum? The Gentile that went through a fake Jewish conversion so he could become a Jewish Messianic rabbi and come out against Gentiles observing the Sabbath? Really?

Darn those pesky old unwritten policies anyway.

Shalom my dear friends that remain. Despite vicious rumors to the contrary, I love you and will miss you.

 

[yedida]

In this MJ forum it seems rules are only to be broken.

It would be helpful if the church circlers would identify which 'Church circles' they work in. Should be required to so state. Like a cat with a little bell on its collar.

With respect, it strikes me that your suggestion is 'Loose as goose', as they say.

Just saying. Doesn't matter, nothing of great import happens here anyway that I'd care to share at the traditional synagogues I go to nor the reservations we try to share at.

Yeah, I have a couple of pastors I've found where it's safe to be a Jew that doesn't cave to the fouled up history of the church, but extremely few.

Don't mean to offend but I don't see much hope for this MJ forum to be very useful. Seems to always culminate in a war of egos. It stinks!

Structural Engineers ought to be considered as religious leaders, we have to make bridges and buildings stand up in the real/unreal world.

Gotta travel half way up the U.S. very soon, probably out 'til late tonight.

Yep, once a year. Every year. Remember the great exodus of last year? Took place in april. This forum was left with just 2 posters who posted here on a regular basis - 1 I believe was finally banned, the other is still here.....

 

[Philothei]

Thank you all for the great input I will just be around too to facilitate discussion in this thread along with Tishri

Will pop in later on today

 

[yedida]

So, this is where I get to eat crow! - again!

In the nine years I have been hanging around this place, I have personally not been aware of anyone having debating and teaching privileges in a forum where they did not have a suitable icon, with the notable exception of GT and the like.

To bolster that perception, I can dredge up numerous staff posts that cite these very rules to visitors; the Christian, Jew, Hebrew Christian, 'Messianic', etc., that come here to set us straight on Torah Observance: "Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not."

I cannot find a single staff post indicating that it is OK for others to do otherwise, though I have been assured that they exist. I have asked one of these multi-membership posters on several occasions to post a link to the one that he claims exists, but despite his many links to teachings contrary to our SoP and Torah Observance, he has yet to produce one from the staff on this topic. So you can see why I am confused about this whole mess, right?

Now there is this, the Big Reveal! Yay!!!

I pointed out repeatedly that there is a basic doctrinal difference between mainstream Christian dogma and that of Torah observant Messianic Judaism. That this is the "core beliefs and teachings" of our SoP. I get censured by the staff for starting a 'call out' thread. Some members have engage in a character assassination campaign, both implying and stating outright my supposed disdain for Christians and Jews - when I am talking about the forum rules, not how a person chooses to worship. But the staff has been quiet as a church mouse about that. No wonder!

Nonetheless, I have made false accusations. I accused former members of this forum, now members of mainstream Christian forums, of debating and teaching here against the rules. Now I find that, even though the rules are written one way, they are evidently interpreted another. So I was wrong and therefore must apologize for not being psychic.

This is me, dusting my sandals at the threshold. I doubt that my character or my intentions will ever be rehabilitated from the slander or the staff's inaction in the face of it. I have been attacked as anti-Christian, anti-Messianic and anti-Semite for pointing out the anti-Torah teachings these guys are linking and what icons they display while debating in a Torah Observant forum. I have had my motives and stability questioned publically (nothing against that in the rules I guess).

You say that you, "honor those who attend a denomination and restrict subjects based on core teaching". That's not something I've actually seen. But good luck with that. Sorry I won't be staying around long enough for you guys to get around to it. Or maybe that's just more 'behind the scenes' stuff that we won't ever get to see.

So much for the safe haven for the Torah Observant Gentile. Links to Derek Leman? Really? In this forum? The Gentile that went through a fake Jewish conversion so he could become a Jewish Messianic rabbi and come out against Gentiles observing the Sabbath? Really?

Darn those pesky old unwritten policies anyway.

Shalom my dear friends that remain. Despite vicious rumors to the contrary, I love you and will miss you.

Please don't leave!!! You speak the truth and bolster the rest of us who agree that rules are being broken and the mods are aware of it to speak out as well!
Besides bolstering us to use our voices, your insights are wonderful. We need to hear those. Please don't go.

(I'm sorry, I've been up since early yesterday morning, so my brain isn't working too wonderfully at the moment. My plea is truly heartfelt, just not very eloquent.)

 

[Rachel Rachel]

I'm not Messianic in the sense that most people mean when they call themselves Messianic. I'm more Hebrew Roots or even Church of God 7th Day (as far as I know, there is no forum for CoG.)
I've never pretended anything different. This forum is as close as I can get to my personal beliefs.

Am I not welcome here? When I ask questions, it isn't to cause division.

Just a reminder to some here....not all Messianics believe in exactly the same way......there's as much division among them as there is in mainstream Christianity.

Here is what I read in the SOP:
1. This is a Torah Observant forum where those in Judaism as well as the Gentiles who are coming to Messiah, and those who already know Him, may come and grow and learn more about a Torah observant life in Messiah. We advocate Torah Observance as part of our walk with Messiah Yeshua, since He is our example and was Torah Observant, along with the disciples. This can be an area of great division with much misunderstanding, so we must realize that we are all at different points in our walk and that the Ruach Elohim (the Spirit of God) will lead people to The Truth. We realize that not all Messianics have equal levels of Torah observance. The disputes concerning this matter will not be tolerated.

 

[Avodat]

I'm not Messianic in the sense that most people mean when they call themselves Messianic. I'm more Hebrew Roots or even Church of God 7th Day (as far as I know, there is no forum for CoG.)
I've never pretended anything different. This forum is as close as I can get to my personal beliefs.

Am I not welcome here? When I ask questions, it isn't to cause division.

Just a reminder to some here....not all Messianics believe in exactly the same way......there's as much division among them as there is in mainstream Christianity.

Here is what I read in the SOP:
1. This is a Torah Observant forum where those in Judaism as well as the Gentiles who are coming to Messiah, and those who already know Him, may come and grow and learn more about a Torah observant life in Messiah. We advocate Torah Observance as part of our walk with Messiah Yeshua, since He is our example and was Torah Observant, along with the disciples. This can be an area of great division with much misunderstanding, so we must realize that we are all at different points in our walk and that the Ruach Elohim (the Spirit of God) will lead people to The Truth. We realize that not all Messianics have equal levels of Torah observance. The disputes concerning this matter will not be tolerated.

You are free and more than welcome to ask questions - a question is a question is a question. We cannot censor questions, thankfully, but those who ask questions just to wind us up are not welcome, obviously (not thinking of you in that last bit )

 

[Rachel Rachel]

You are free and more than welcome to ask questions - a question is a question is a question. We cannot censor questions, thankfully, but those who ask questions just to wind us up are not welcome, obviously (not thinking of you in that last bit )

Thank you.

 

[visionary]

Thank you.

Put into your title that you are COG looking for a home, checking out MJ, and we will recognize you as a fellow sojourner without a tribe of your own.

 

[Norbert L]

I'm not Messianic in the sense that most people mean when they call themselves Messianic. I'm more Hebrew Roots or even Church of God 7th Day (as far as I know, there is no forum for CoG.)
I've never pretended anything different. This forum is as close as I can get to my personal beliefs.

Am I not welcome here? When I ask questions, it isn't to cause division.

Just a reminder to some here....not all Messianics believe in exactly the same way......there's as much division among them as there is in mainstream Christianity.

I'm in a similar CoG boat and used to post quite frequently all over CF.

The hardest part of posting is figuring out whether what I write can be of any profitable use within the discussion.

It looks like without having a MJ tag of sorts, the best that can be done is refer to some reputable MJ resources that back up a comment being made.

 

[Steve Petersen]

With the wealth of information available at your fingertips, why would anyone NEED to come here and ask questions?

 

[ChavaK]

With the wealth of information available at your fingertips, why would anyone NEED to come here and ask questions?

I don't think anyone NEEDS to come here, but people appreciate friendships and fellowships. You don't get that from google

 

[visionary]

Besides not everything is answered to satisfaction by pre-canned presentations. Some questions are just a tidbit more info that they do not provide to make the like from where they are to where others are.