Icons and the last few years on CF

[Tishri1]

I think that, as far as software is concerned, it would not be very easy to do For non-Messianic Jews I added a couple of lines, too.

I suggest the following for the SoP to replace the existing, similar text:

"In addition, if you do not agree with the established teachings of this faith group, (if you do not accept that Torah Observance is valid, for example) you may not debate issues or teach, but you are welcome to ask questions or post in fellowship. Active promotion or teaching of views contrary to the established MJ teachings of this group will be considered off topic and subject to staff action.

Non-Messianic Jews wishing to have normal posting rights on these fora - to help us in our understanding of Judaism - must respect our MJ faith and not teach or debate against it. Abuse of posting rights will be subject to staff action, as is the case for MJ's."

help me keep track of these ok?

 

[Tishri1]

Ohhh and your not the first forum that wants to restrict non members from reporting

I think that, as far as software is concerned, it would not be very easy to do For non-Messianic Jews I added a couple of lines, too.

I suggest the following for the SoP to replace the existing, similar text:

"In addition, if you do not agree with the established teachings of this faith group, (if you do not accept that Torah Observance is valid, for example) you may not debate issues or teach, but you are welcome to ask questions or post in fellowship. Active promotion or teaching of views contrary to the established MJ teachings of this group will be considered off topic and subject to staff action.

Non-Messianic Jews wishing to have normal posting rights on these fora - to help us in our understanding of Judaism - must respect our MJ faith and not teach or debate against it. Abuse of posting rights will be subject to staff action, as is the case for MJ's."

 

[Tishri1]

When did you get so wise, my friend?

I think I'm gonna take your advice (from some other post you made) and just chill out. It's just the internet, just a forum. (When all is said and done, it's the people here that keeps me coming back, not the dialogue.)

 

[Tishri1]

Blah blah blah. Sorry but im sooo tired of this argument

Our job here is to get as many Torah positive posters in here together

Maybe its wishful thinking but its what is best for this place for inclusiveness around the world

I'm not against this place being a place to move towards Torah observance. It depends who/what is considered mainstream.

Some would say the likes of MJAA, UMJC are mainstream. Even FFOZ who was on the other side of MJAA and UMJC is now more in line with the likes of UMJC and MJAA. Which are organizations that are Torah for Jews only.

Some would say the likes of CTMOC is mainstream which is an organization that is one law for all.

My point is whether or not certain organizations are considered mainstream and organizations that are counter chose to create own organizations because they didn't believe in mainstream.

This is what has happened. Now are the organizations that split away from the likes of MJAA, UMJC and even FFOZ considered mainstream too? If not then its not fair to be considered mainstream. If so then your statement of "However, those MJ's whose views fall more into line with mainstream teachings have a plethora of fora to choose from here."would work.

I've talked to leadership in CTMOC as an example. And they split from MJAA and created CTMOC because XYZ. Now they split from an already existing entity to create. So this could also mean they split from mainstream MJ to create an organization that is contrary to mainstream.

My other point is if there is(and I say IF) a mainstream MJ and organizations that split from mainstream, be honest and say you're not part of mainstream MJ or you are.

As an example I'm in line with organizations like the UMJC and MJAA. My opinion is they are the mainstream, the pioneer organizations of the Messianic Jewish movement. I'm not in line with organizations that split from the UMJC and MJAA. I don't consider these groups mainstream MJ. Just because I don't consider them mainstream doesn't mean it's bad.

Others may say well the groups that split compile of the mainstream.

 

[Tishri1]

Thank you i agree whole heartedly

Actually, no it wasn't.

We've had all kinds here, and years ago One Law'ers were hardly represented. Most of the posters here have historically been mainstream MJ with a charismatic or evangelical underlying theology. The whole "Observant" thing (whatever that means in real terms) is pretty recent.

The issue is completely a waste of time. No one really wants to address the brass tacks here- what does it mean to be Torah observant? If someone says "well, you don't need tzitzis" another will accuse him or her of being "against Torah". This is fanatic madness and it needs to stop. We're being asked to turn on each other like the Muslims do over the laws of the religion. I'm against tearing communities apart for religion.

In Torah, there is a learning curve and observance is very much a matter of personal development and choice. I hate to say it but many of the Gentile posters here just don't seem to understand that, nor do many want it. They tend to bring the denominational mentality of the Western church into MJism- that is, they want written rules and complete conformity and they want it immediately for all. "Our way or the Highway". Posters from Jewish backgrounds tend to see this as folly, trust me. We all talk to each other and we all are pretty mystified at the spectacle that goes on when this topic rears it head. Whether we're MJ or RJ we tend to see this whole kvetch as ridiculous. We tend to see the value of the Torah but also know the being frum is not easy. What's more, is that we tend to bring the tolerance of our way of life into our MJism, so all this fighting and condemnation just seems so...unJewish/unChristian.

Fact: pretty much everyone regular posting here believes in the Torah, its relevance, and its immutable authority. The conversation should therefore always only focus on continuing dialogue on how the Torah is lived in this life. Rather than kick each other- how about supporting each other?

 

[Tishri1]

Good point. Calling it One Law Messianic's might be better or something like that which is fine. But don't go claiming you're mainstream Messianic Judaism because of a forum is one law as an example that causes problems when the forum is one law but calling themselves Messianic Judaism. If you go to Wikipedia you'll see Messianic Judaism opposes certain doctrines; 2 house, one law, supercessionism.

your not going to last long if you keep this up

Forget organizations
Please

 

[Tishri1]

Shalom,

This is not applicable to everyone but occurs often enough to make it forefront in my mind.

As things are being brought up and discussed I think it's prudent that we don't make the discussion of topics into personal matters where we are piciking at each other and making personal comments that are not helpful.

Discussing respective topics can certainly be helpful, especially when pinpointing what the problems are and brainstorming what the solutions might be.

But let's not turn the discussion of principles and issues into personal attacks which only muddy the waters and keep emotions at a high pitch?

I think we can do this! We remain committed to helping to improve this forum for everyone. We can say what we have to say without taking an inventory of the poster we are addressing.

G-d bless everyone.

Faithfully,
CH Sacerdote

 

[Tishri1]

Annier you need to cool it too

Your just being disruptive

How bout i just get rid of all the folks being disruptive and then we can have everyone who really cares about more than their precious "sect" remain

Seriously that would solve every thing

Fortunately for most i really do want to be as inclusive to All those who love Torah and Tradition to be here

Now lets move on and get this forum sop adjusted

To restate what we were working on:

Main forum:

• Members need to fellowship and post Torah positive , no debate or negative posts about members observance or torah (This post below is a perfect example of torah negative)

• 
  Also most want non members to be restricted to a single thread for questions and also restrict them from reporting in here

• Looks like most want our Regular Jewish posters to be active members

Subforum:

• And adding a debate forum with a nice name

I agree, it is an accident waiting to happen mentality. This has obviously been going on for quite sometime ( I am going by everyones comments to this fact). So, it does naturally lead to a person wondering at motivations in purposely setting things up for strife to continue? Jews, themselves which are the heart and beginnings of Messianic Judaism, have left, feeling kicked out. Yet, nothing to ease such thing as that. So, who really is it that "one law" Messianics (most of which are known to be Gentiles) appealing to here? Certainly not the larger Messianic believers. So to whom are these one laws really appealing to?
And why isn't a Christian forum showing more concern for injustices being done here? I do not understand this.

We (those familiar with MJISM), all know this is a major issue in the movement, we flat know it. We know the common terms which describe it.
ONE LAW DOCTRINE vs DIVINE INVITATION are no secret, except here!
Nobody wants their faith misrepresented, especially if it is completely opposed to their own faith ideology.
Hence the request to at least call the forum ONE LAW MJ.
It is a matter of "Do unto others as you would have them do to you". In this particular case. But on a Christian forum which HAS different faith groups to fellowship in, and for others to become familiar with their group, to come and see. So they are doing for themselves, what is not being done for Mjism. I do not understand this.
There have been many comments made saying "grow up". Yes, let's all grow up and accept the way things are. Growing up means to accept the world the way it is, not pretending it is some utopia, of our own making. It means accepting people have views we do not share, and many of those views we even utterly detest. But to deny they even exist, really is not being "grown up". Well, at least I do not think so.
Just my appeal to the higher nature we all share

 

[Tishri1]

Ok if we can get away from talking about organizations and how this forum chased off all the regular posters because we are Torah Positive

Then we can stay open

Again lets pray too

This is not easy

 

[Torah Lishmah]

Hi Tishri,

I have a simple question for you. Is there any way you could see fit to add a thread title prefix [like the "MJ Only" prefix] to where Jews can express their Judaism without any restraint, or paranoia? Of course, Messianics & Christians would be able to post in those threads as well, for obvious reasons. Perhaps it could read "Jews Invited" or something similar? Thank you.

 

[dnc101]

Tishri, you said you'd like to keep it simple. I'm a simple kind of guy, so let's simplify:

The only real need for change I see is to allow Jewish posters to answer questions openly and honestly without being censured. Just add a clause to this effect into the SoP and everything will be good.

If you want Jewish posters to have unrestricted privileges (and I support this), create a forum for them.

Now, here's the really simple part- in both the MJ and Jewish fora (if you decide to have one), the key to making it work is NOT in rewriting the SoP semiannually- it is in having a real butt-head poised at the other end of the report button! I'm serious, someone needs to be a stickler for the rules and just downright ornery with violators! Otherwise, if they think they can violate with impunity violators will try to do just that. Recent events prove this. A little discernment, a kind hand, but a heavy boot a good moderator doth make.

Simple.

Dan C

Oh, and a lot of hard work- thanks for yours! Same to everyone behind the scenes here.

 

[muffler dragon]

The group i was hanging with for several month was started by Jews and their by laws were formed by Jews for Gentiles in order to be acceptable for fellowship. I left as i couldn't stomach the horrible things said about Yeshua

They told me what i stated here

But maybe they were wrong

I prefer they were, to be honest

I didnt like how they acted toward Christians and Messianics

Thanks for the clarification. IMO and experience there is no where near a collective "conscience" (for lack of a better word) on what Noachidism is nor what Noachides should/shouldn't do. There are schizoid components from within and without the structure.

FWIW, the strongest incorrect consideration of your previous statement was the usage of "control". Maybe you meant something else, but that's what stuck out to me. I understand now that this is what you have gained from experience, and once again, can state unequivocally that it's an interesting perspective. It just isn't universal.

 

[ContraMundum]

The only real need for change I see is to allow Jewish posters to answer questions openly and honestly without being censured. Just add a clause to this effect into the SoP and everything will be good.

That seems to be addressing a complaint that hasn't been the main focus of the thread, but...

If you want Jewish posters to have unrestricted privileges (and I support this), create a forum for them.

..that could work.

Now, here's the really simple part- in both the MJ and Jewish fora (if you decide to have one), the key to making it work is NOT in rewriting the SoP semiannually- it is in having a real butt-head poised at the other end of the report button! I'm serious, someone needs to be a stickler for the rules and just downright ornery with violators! Otherwise, if they think they can violate with impunity violators will try to do just that. Recent events prove this. A little discernment, a kind hand, but a heavy boot a good moderator doth make.

Simple.

Having been a mod on more than one forum I can say that this doesn't actually work in practice. Mods needs to act on a case-by-case basis and take into consideration many factors. Overly-strict mods are often manipulated by serial reporters, who usually have their own barrow to push. You find that in a Christian setting people usually settle down with a warning and some counsel.

But, I concur that the SoP doesn't need constant re-working. I think forum education (eg. letting people know what sections are appropriate for their posts, what is acceptable to post etc) works charms. It's about how the forum is used and how the rules accommodate posters without stifling opinions to the point of creating a place that is an homage to boredom and conformity.

 

[annier]

your not going to last long if you keep this up

Forget organizations
Please

In other words, just forget all Messianic Judaism to be represented here. It aint gonna happen..You are going to have this forum for one law Messianics to freely speak, and all other minded Messianics just need to accept they will be suppressed. :o

 

[annier]

There may come a time when the various MJ groups no longer fellowship with each other, and this will cause the need for separate MJ denominational forums anyway.

I think this would be a good thing. Trials and the pruning process is not a bad thing.

 

[visionary]

Thanks for the clarification. IMO and experience there is no where near a collective "conscience" (for lack of a better word) on what Noachidism is nor what Noachides should/shouldn't do. There are schizoid components from within and without the structure.

FWIW, the strongest incorrect consideration of your previous statement was the usage of "control". Maybe you meant something else, but that's what stuck out to me. I understand now that this is what you have gained from experience, and once again, can state unequivocally that it's an interesting perspective. It just isn't universal.

After attending more than several meetings of the local chapter of Noahiders, I came to the same conclusion as Tishri1.

 

[annier]

Thanks for the clarification. IMO and experience there is no where near a collective "conscience" (for lack of a better word) on what Noachidism is nor what Noachides should/shouldn't do. There are schizoid components from within and without the structure.

FWIW, the strongest incorrect consideration of your previous statement was the usage of "control". Maybe you meant something else, but that's what stuck out to me. I understand now that this is what you have gained from experience, and once again, can state unequivocally that it's an interesting perspective. It just isn't universal.

 

[Torah Lishmah]

I think that, as far as software is concerned, it would not be very easy to do

It wouldn't require software. It would be simple to do with JavaScript or PHP.

 

[annier]

Ohhh and your not the first forum that wants to restrict non members from reporting

Surely not the first for such a request. But certainly the ONLY FORUM, denying those within the faith group, to be in the faith group. Not all Messianic Judaism is allowed to be Messianic here.

 

[Avodat]

It wouldn't require software. It would be simple to do with JavaScript or PHP.

This is only my 2nd WW3! Under the first one I seem to recall that such changes could not be made because of complications with the software package that is being used.