Icons and the last few years on CF

[dnc101]

That has been the problem lately. Others (with conflicting icons or no icons) come in here on a regular basis, they teach/debate against what is clearly written in our SoP and when we complain about it, we are the ones who get flamed and slander by them! This is totally unacceptable and terribly confusing to us.

Dan C

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Have to disagree here. The difference is that along with the Eucharist goes the doctrine of transsubstantion, where it is believed that the bread actually becomes the body of Christ as it is eaten. Same with the wine- it becomes the blood.

Communion holds that the bread only represents the body of Christ, and the wine represents His blood.


Communion holds that the bread only represents the body of Christ, and the wine represents His blood.

So what gg was teaching is doubly offensive and is a Catholic view, not Messianic.

Dan C

Falsehood - and as said before, it is ignorant of history to claim as you did - and illustrates further WHY things were addressed earlier in #66 (as well as previously in #51 #49, #46 ) when you made inaccurate comments.

There are other places to talk on the Eucharist as it relates to Messianic Jewish culture - but so long as one keeps bringing it up with false accusations, it will be an issue that has to be squared with, seeing that it was never the case that Eucharist was EVER about transubstantiation as the sole definition to begin with . The concept of Real Presence (when it comes to Eucharist ) is different from transubstantiation (since the view with Real Presence is that Christ is LITERALLY present in a mysterious/symbolic way even though it's not like his Body is physically there ) - just as consubstantiation differs from transubstantiation. This is a basic point of understanding in the world of Christendom - and this is something many Messianic Jews have long noted when people give inaccurate claims in the name of "Well the Catholics teach this so you must mean this as well!!!!" that are already divorced from history - for Messianic Jews as a WHOLE hold to the view of Eucharist which is based on Real Presence...as do many others in the Protestant world.


Thus, what you said isn't even representative of what Messianic Jews believe as a whole when it comes to the concept of Eucharist (as well as offensive to them when putting words in the mouths of others) - and nothing you said deals at any point with the variation they hold to...although what it is symbolic of is the typical Fundamentalist Evangelical perspective that doesn't deal well with categories/context. And to promote it further is blantant falsehood - so best to stop while you're ahead in the misrepresentations of what Messianics believe.

And prayerfully, things can remain ON topic as was requested..

 

[annier]

All I am saying is that the left arm does not equal the right arm.

I get that. What does this mean? To me we are all members of his one torso. We are working towards that which the head desires as members. What say you?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Jews. Some live in the church, so what! Some have their own shuls with a traditional Sefer Torah, ark and all. Some live inbetween. All should be treated as family, and seen as such. But then came along that dirty word, two house, that entertained Gentiles observance to Torah. That was seen as way off by the historical body and is still hotly debated. But this is where the one law doctrine got it's birth. It surpassed the two house movement by far because it took the Torah obervance for Gentiles and mixed it with traditional Judaism customs that were being practiced for centuries by traditional Messianic Jews.
.

I really don't see the logic in others claiming that there are no distinctions between Jew and Gentile - especially when it comes to basics such as circumcision.

If other Messianic Gentiles believe that Gentiles have to be EXACTLY the same at all points like the Jewish people in order to be truly observing God's Law as the Lord wanted, then logically - does that mean that they are for Gentiles being circumcised as a sign of faithfulness to the Lord?

Does that mean that we're go reveal that people go directly against Paul/other Messianic Jews in the early body when they counciled AGAINST it? Or are we going to do as many splinter groups within the Mesianic world have done when reinventing Paul (or being outright AGAINST what He said and the Torah) when it comes to practice established for Messianic Jew and Messianic Gentile - and assuming that the Council's decision in Acts 15 (on Gentile believers NOT needing to be circumcised in order to be approved of by the Lord) was apparently a temporary hold where it was hoped the Gentiles would be circumcised FULLY in time - just as they feel others should today (if they've not done so themselves as Gentiles)?

Seriously, if we're to honor scripture/Biblical authority, we need to do so consistently rather than with the games of "Well you're not for Torah Observance and Scripture when saying others were different at times!!!" since that's not what scripture says - and Paul spoke on it in 1 Corinthians 7:17-23 with remaining as you were when you were called. Paul did not teach "Anti-Torah" in his mindsets or lifestyles when he spoke in support of the Torah, observance and noting how that plays out - and more on this was discussed before in (#25 , #75 #76 #77).

1 Corinthians 7:17-23

New King James Version (NKJV)

Live as You Are Called

17 But as God has distributed to each one, as the Lord has called each one, so let him walk. And so I ordain in all the churches. 18 Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 20 Let each one remain in the same calling in which he was called. 21 Were you called while a slave? Do not be concerned about it; but if you can be made free, rather use it. 22 For he who is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord’s freedman. Likewise he who is called while free is Christ’s slave. 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.

​

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Bad form.

 

[Kristen.NewCreation]

PLEASE READ!

Stick to the topic of the OP. This thread is having posts that are flaming and off topic.

Also, I do believe it was advised yesterday to not discuss the Eucharist. Please proceed back on topic.

Thanks,

MOD HAT OFF
​

 

[Avodat]

Errrr, what is the topic, again?

 

[ananda]

I get that. What does this mean? To me we are all members of his one torso. We are working towards that which the head desires as members. What say you?

Yes, we are members of His torso (Messiah Himself).

I'm using the term "Christian" as it is commonly understood today with its loaded meaning(s), to refer to mainstream Christians and their beliefs. In this sense, "Christian" equals the "left arm". So, I was speaking of this when I say that the right arm (Messianics) does not equal the left arm (mainstream Christianity).

 

[Avodat]

Unless someone is left-handed!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

It seems to me that unless someone has an official position within that faith group to speak for them, this site would be best, to defer to their views as best as possible, and their arms (affiliates) which many in here openly mock as abc groups.
The current mentality now present would be equal to Catholics opposed to the pope, and the college of bishops, coming in and writing an op for the forum which allowed them to militate against that institution. Why is this allowed to be happening here?

Good comparision - as it concerns the logic of what would occur with a Catholic Pope having bishops coming in/writing an OP against the Pope/government in the Catholic church while still trying to keep the name "Catholic" - for it is simply bizzare when other Messianics in line with the mainstream MJism world or others who founded the modern day movement from the 1960s/1970s (or those who were Jewish believers in the Early Church/1st Century ) have others who are essentially a minority within the Messianic movement - and then try to tell them they're not truly "Messianic" for not agreeing with them ......and then trying to use a Christian forum as a launching point for getting more people on their side while simultaneously denouncing all things which are Christian - and harming Messianic Jews who work with Christians ....

 

[Avodat]

His torso is his body. We are the body of Christ. He is the head

Ok, what are those loaded meanings? Commonly understood by whom? Beliefs of which Christians?

What? Now you are putting words in my mouth - I have not entered the 'body' discussion. You are sinking to new depths in your efforts to stir things up! Those 'links' had to be purposely manufactured!

I think you should leave this forum.

 

[dnc101]

My, how things have changed. In the 1st cen, the Judaizers were saying that in order to be saved one had to formally become a Jew. Acceptance of Yeshua and a gradual development wasn't enough. Now they say "Hey! That's Jewish and you can't do it!" Quoting what God said doesn't matter, nor does the historical fact that this separation helped lead to centuries of abuses and oppression. Many, if not most Jews are offended when gentiles try to become Jewish.

For our part, the fact is we gentiles do not always know what we're doing. We often get it wrong. We also are not always sensitive that to them, being Jewish is more than religion, or even genetics. It is a shared past which includes common suffering in the atrocities I mentioned above. I can see how for us to just happily intrude into that is offensive.

Honest dialogue might provide some answers, however this is not possible when mainstream posters are allowed to flood this forum at any time to push their agenda. Let me go one further- it is a satanic agenda. God promotes unity, ha satan promotes divisiveness, and none of us are immune to satanic attack or influence.

One problem at a time, ladies and gentlemen- the first thing we need to do is to expunge those from the mainstream side who come here to foster discord. Then we need to make sure they do not return by immediately identifying them and everyone reporting their presence. If enough people report it will get the attention of the mods, leaving no doubt that we want them gone.

Do that and then maybe we can deal with some of the other "problems" with honest discussion. We'll also avoid sweeping up some of the valued people who fellowship, answer questions and generally are supportive yet have the "wrong" icon (Jewish, searching, etc.) in these brush fires and making them feel unwanted.

Dan C

 

[Gxg (G²)]

His torso is his body. We are the body of Christ. He is the head

Ok, what are those loaded meanings? Commonly understood by whom? Beliefs of which Christians?

If I may say,

I noticed that you had in the post you quoted the comments attributed to Avodat - and I was giving benefit of the doubt since the computer has experienced glitches before where something you quoted from someone else was attributed to another.

For the quotes you gave were by Brother netzarim - from #268.

 

[ananda]

What? Now you are putting words in my mouth - I have not entered the 'body' discussion. You are sinking to new depths in your efforts to stir things up! Those 'links' had to be purposely manufactured!

I think you should leave this forum.

The attributions were definitely altered.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I'll probably just leave Christians forums altogether because of this forum.

Sad to hear (although there have been others who had the same when similar came up ). Praying for you, although mourning your absence

 

[annier]

What? Now you are putting words in my mouth

How have I done that? I have said we are his body, his torso, to distinguish his torso. they are the same thing in my mind. A torso is not a head. This was done in an effort to get you to be more clear in the dicussion.

- I have not entered the 'body' discussion. You are sinking to new depths in your efforts to stir things up! Those 'links' had to be purposely manufactured!

What links are you talking about?

I think you should leave this forum.

Ok, thats what you think. I have not broken the rules IMO. I have honestly made clarifying statements to further understanding in dialogue however. As for links I have no clue what you are talking about.

Here is a copy and paste of my post as I see it on my computer

Originally Posted by Avodat

Yes, we are members of His torso (Messiah Himself).
​

His torso is his body. We are the body of Christ. He is the head
Originally Posted by Avodat

I'm using the term "Christian" as it is commonly understood today with its loaded meaning(s), to refer to mainstream Christians and their beliefs.
​

Ok, what are those loaded meanings? Commonly understood by whom? Beliefs of which Christians?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I promote Messianic Judaism as it has been identified for centuries. .

And many other Messianics have noted the same for ages - in honor of the SOP of the forum and what's adhered to by Messianic Jews/Messianic Gentiles worldwide in our times as well as in the past.

Regardless of where all feel they stand - including those who may have fallen into a bad ideology when it comes to the mentality of thinking Messianic Jews cannot be Christian or thinking Jews cannot live out Biblical Judaism in the Church (a view opposed to what Christ taught) - we have to walk in prayer/concern for others...and pray for the Lord to work in hearts/open eyes rather than trying to pry them open for others by force - or forget that people will always find reason to disagree.

It's all too easy to have a "I'm right and you're Wrong!!" mindset rather than remembering others may have experiences/emotions based on certain encounters that cause them to react as they do.....and it takes work to remember that.

As said before, there are others who may not have a perspective of "One Law" observation that feels that they should have their own boundaries/level of observance respected - and yet they can have the same mindset of "I'm right, you're wrong!!" when it comes to someone who is Two-House leaning....and stereotyping them even when they didn't say certain things. The same can apply to making wide-sweeping claims like "All One Law people are like this!!!" or "All Two-House people are like this!!!" in the negative when there are variations within those camps as well - with some differing in how they define "One Law" in comparison to another when one side feels being under the same Law means being under Gods' Universal Instructions for all time (including where differences are noted/commanded by the Lord) whereas others feel it means Jews/Gentiles were always meant to look alike at all points (and thus ignoring where differences occurred ). The person without a One Law view could easily do damage when not being gracious in their comments...

And someone from Two-House who wishes to be respected/encountered graciously may end up not walking in love if they encounter someone from a strain of Messianic Judaism like MJAA or UMJC - or a Messianic believer working with Churches - when they claim that no one could be Messianic Jewish in lifestyle if they attended Churches/noted appreciation for them.

Likewise, someone who is a Messianic working with Churches could feel that others hound them for being "Non-Observant" (untrue) simply because of pre-existing views/inaccurate analysis that leads to others assuming no one in Church could ever be concerned with living out Torah (as goes the claims that "Christian theology/churches are anti-Semitic in their core!!! or claiming that "The Church oppressed the Jewish people - so you're responsible for that like they are in helping them - we in the Messianic world are the answer!!!", etc.) ..

And yet the Messianic working with Churches could do damage to another when that Messianic claims that another Messianic Gentile is foolish for wanting to be circumcised like the Hebrews - claiming they're trying to be "saved by the Law" when the Messianic Gentile wanting circumcision is sincerely doing so out of conviction that the Lord led him to be circumcised. For as another said best long ago, "'Gentiles who are called to be part of the Messianic Jewish community are worthy of particular honor ... because they have voluntarily taken on a relationship to Torah out of a love for the God and people of Israel.' ( #170 )


If a Gentile felt led to be circumcised as they saw in the Torah, debating the necessity of it is one thing - but saying "You are NOT allowed to do that!!!" and saying God condemns them for it is another...............and the same goes in reverse when others differ in observance but claim others are not truly "observing" because they do not look the same. As noted before in previous discussion when some of the same things were discussed (#200 #206 #282 #50 #), if some one self Identifies as a Grace Only Christian (i.e. antinomian, against anything pertaining to OT, thinking there are no rules or "grace equals license to sin", that's one thing - but it's entirely another when folks go about labeling MJ's who are not as Torah Observant as "grace only Christians" as a way to belittle them - and that has been asked to stop since, as we all know, in MJ there are all levels of Torah Observance.

We are all in need of God's grace and loving one another - as well as being loved and shown grace. When that has been in practice, there have been times of peace, mutual dialogue and learning - but when that's lost, that's when things go awry.

James 3:12/James 3:3
12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh.[a]

Heavenly Versus Demonic Wisdom

13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

 

[annier]

If I may say,

I noticed that you had in the post you quoted the comments attributed to Avodat - and I was giving benefit of the doubt since the computer has experienced glitches before where something you quoted from someone else was attributed to another.

For the quotes you gave were by Brother netzarim - from #268.

oops, had not a clue it was happening.
Sorry Avodat. None were done on purpose

 

[annier]

The attributions were definitely altered.

And accidentally. How do I fix it?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Lesson in religious life: everyone is someone else's heretic, and there will always be someone who thinks you don't do enough of something.

Don't let it bother you. Life is too short to stress about such things.

For all the ladies and gentlemen out there, it's something that needs to be kept in mind when it seems apparent that people may want to do witch hunts simply because you disagree with them - even though the same could occur with them when it comes to where people in their own camps don't adhere to what they desire.....and in the end, people end up consuming themselves/not being able to have either logical discussion or treating others properly because they're all seeking to demonize that which they don't like.

Life is too short for that indeed...