Icons and the last few years on CF

[dodari]

What religion should us goy practice then? Something completely alien to what our Master practiced?
Should Peter have told Cornelius to go back to his pagan temple?

I said: "I'm outta here, since I'm a Jew."

 

[Steve Petersen]

I said: "I'm outta here, since I'm a Jew."

Way to not answer the question.

 

[Shimshon]

How about simple requirements that make us as a group stand out..

Love for Yeshua our Messiah
Love for His Torah and willingness to observe to the best of our ability
Love for His feasts and everything about them
Love to live His lifestyle, which includes a more kosher diet.
Love Israel and its people

I think Yeshua summed it up pretty good here:

22 Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man. 23 "Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets. 24 "But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort. 25 Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will go hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep. 26 Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets.
Love for Enemies

6:29,30pp -- Mt 5:39-42

27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. 32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them.

 

[ContraMundum]

A few comments-

First thought- we're still talking about this? Why? I keep hearing a few people yelling "Fire! Fire!" but don't see any fire. The rules are fine- trust the mods. Nothing is perfect, live with the quirks.

Second thought- be careful not to shut out people because they don't appear kosher to you. This could end up like one of the other forums- where diverse opinions (even from within the fold) are seen as "attacks" on the orthodoxy of the forum. There usually is a small few who react this way, but they make life miserable for every visitor and tediously repetitive for the regulars. Just remember everyone is on a journey and be nice to them. Their opinons will change, as will yours.

Next thought- what you don't want to stomach, ignore.

Why is this so hard for the two or three creating all the fuss? What makes their theology the only right one and their halacha the only acceptable way? MJism is big and pretty diverse, and getting bigger and more diverse, The sub-forums can handle the diversity just fine. Use them, folks!

 

[ContraMundum]

Way to not answer the question.

He completely misunderstood you, brother.

 

[ContraMundum]

Hi,

It seems a few here are concerned about members who attend both MJ congregations and another church of a different denomination

Everyone is wondering if this is ok?

It is and staff have been operating this way for years at CF

How we keep the confusion down, is to have the member either tote the MJ icon or have their title announce that they are MJ or their siggy.

Bottom line is somewhere in view of all their posts , we need to be able to identify them as MJ

I think everything has worked just fine for years. All it requires is tolerance and maturity to make it work. The hiccups in the forum are to be expected- the internet is a free country, so there will always be adverse opinions expressed and pet doctrines offended. There's no such thing as a "safe haven" on an internet forum, and the places where that has been attempted always boil the numbers down one or two posters, then they close. A good forum is like a simmering pot where the lid keeps things from boiling over but doesn't suffocate activity to the point of spoiling the meal.

 

[Steve Petersen]

He completely misunderstood you, brother.

Nearly everyone does for some reason.

It's no fun being between the trenches of Christianity and Judaism. Bullets flying at you from both sides. No wonder we hunker down.

 

[ContraMundum]

Nearly everyone does for some reason.

I even did on occassion!

It's no fun being between the trenches of Christianity and Judaism. Bullets flying at you from both sides. No wonder we hunker down.

Peacemakers have to cop a few bullets from time to time.

 

[mishkan]

Thank you, Mishkan. We have a bit of history, too, don't we?

Most of us "have history" with most of the others here.

I think we all have to keep in mind that, even when there is sharp dissension, we should all be able to move on at the end of the day. There is no reason to take differences of opinion as an excuse for hateful attitudes towards one another, personally.

I hope everyone realizes that about myself--even though I may express my views in the fewest words possible, and seem curt at times, I am always willing to start over with a fresh slate on the next topic.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Sometimes less rules is more ruling and people will either trust Tishri1 or not.

Good point - and on the issue, Sister Tishri has done a commendable job trying to address issues as best as possible - and I don't think the solutions given are negative so long as we walk according to them reasonably.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

There are actually Icons for non trinitarians, which is a view that goes against not only the sop in this forum but the sitewide rules. Why not some Icon's for those of us which do not fully fit the sop, but do fit with Judaism at large?

That has been a suggestion which came up some time last year - in regards to expanding icons on certain dynamics since we already had them present for those who were Non-Trinitarian Messianics and going further in descriptions...with it being the case years ago that debate arose on having an icon for those who were deemed "Hebrew Christian" (i.e those working in Churches as Jewish believers or Gentile believers) and having that be seperate from "Messianic Jewish" (i.e. those not wanting to be connected with the Church in any way or thinking work with the Church equates to divorce from Judaism/Judaic practices) - as others felt that being a Hebrew Christian was different than a Messianic Jew even though other Messianics debated the matter (more here, here, here, here, here ). It was noted - during sometime last year that it'd be cool if it were possible to simply have the ability for Two Icons available - one showing Messianic and the other showing the Church you're involved in - but the battle over what it means to be Messianic was where a lot of issues tended to surface.

As said before:

I assumed you self-identified as "Messianic" because of your faith icon. On this forum, the term "Messianic" can refer to a Jew or a Gentile who attends a Messianic congregation- whether it be mainstream or otherwise. Generally, the term "Hebrew Christian" is used to designate Messianic Jewish believers in Jesus who attend mainstream Christian churches, but on this forum "Messianic Hebrew Christian" is used to describe those Jewish believers who attend mainstream churches but still keep their traditions and culture intact.

These terms are generally very permeable, and really just useful in helping people find "safe" spaces on the forum where they won't be ridiculed for their beliefs.

Terms are very strange things.

Technically, all Jews are "Messianic" because they all await the advent of the Messiah, and the belief in a Messiah is a Jewish belief.

But the term "Messianic Jew" has come to mean a Jewish believer in Jesus, yet in previous times the term was the more accurate "Hebrew Christian" or "Jewish Christian"

Many Christians who try to find a Christian faith that has an emphasis on the "Jewishness" of Jesus and the Christian faith call themselves Messianic, whether Jewish or Gentile, but the truth be told it is really a Gentile movement when it is outside of Israel. In the West it's a mixed bag with very good teachers and complete nutcases as well. Discernment needed.

Now, many non-Jews have taken the name "Messianic Jew" and created a kind of Rabbinic interpretation of Christianity (as seen by Anders below) which rejects both Christianity and Judaism as false religions. This is of course bcoming popular in the West, but is very unpopular amongst Jews.

​

That being said, I thought it was a great idea to have Non-Trinitarian Messianic as an icon to describe views differing from mainstream Messianic Jewish views - and another one would be "Unconventional Messianic" or "Neo-Messianic" (in regards to others with views not lining up with how the movement defined itself originally in the 1960s/1970s). For those who were Messanic and into camps like Two-House or One-Law, it is always an issue of identifying which strain you may be dealing with - and thus, there was a level of graciousness/taking things as you went...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

A few comments-

First thought- we're still talking about this? Why? I keep hearing a few people yelling "Fire! Fire!" but don't see any fire. The rules are fine- trust the mods. Nothing is perfect, live with the quirks.

Second thought- be careful not to shut out people because they don't appear kosher to you. This could end up like one of the other forums- where diverse opinions (even from within the fold) are seen as "attacks" on the orthodoxy of the forum. There usually is a small few who react this way, but they make life miserable for every visitor and tediously repetitive for the regulars. Just remember everyone is on a journey and be nice to them. Their opinons will change, as will yours.

Next thought- what you don't want to stomach, ignore.

Why is this so hard for the two or three creating all the fuss? What makes their theology the only right one and their halacha the only acceptable way? MJism is big and pretty diverse, and getting bigger and more diverse, The sub-forums can handle the diversity just fine. Use them, folks!

Solid analysis, IMHO - as it does seem a lot of things seem to get misunderstood.

How many varieties of understanding have there been on something as simple as Galatians 1-2 where Paul and Peter have dispute over eating with Gentiles and what that means? All in the Messianic world agree on Kosher being important for the Jewish Body of Believers and noted importance on Torah being valued - yet 2 Jews, and 3 opinons arise every time - with some feeling Paul didn't feel the need to condemn Non-Messianic Gentile believers for not being Kosher since he wanted fellowship - whereas others felt Paul and the Gentiles present all kept Kosher and Paul was angry at Peter for still thinking Gentiles were not to be fellowshipped with at all - while others feel Paul expected the Gentiles present to become Kosher in time and others take the D.Thomas Lancaster View,

There is so much variation for so many seeking to follow God's Law as best as possible (as they understand it) - and at times, it seems that what seems to get things off is when visitors come.

In the open forums outside of the Sub-Forums made for specific topics, fellowship is allowed and promoted - and that occurs often. And when visitors come in, they've often sought to start discussions in fellowship. At times, specific questions about Messianic Jewish living come up - and people from all sides jump in to share their thoughts since the questions weren't geared to one specific group. At times, those threads which are very specific are moved to the appropriate Sub-Forum - be it moving a discussion about Church interaction with the Messianic world to the "Bridge Builders" forum .....or talking about a specific Torah issue (i.e. the whole Tanakh, seeing how a practice of purification took place/how it applied, etc.) to the "All Things Torah!" sub-forum.

And the same goes for threads on eschatology being moved to the "Israel and End Times Prophecy" sub-forum.

However, many times those threads are left in the MAIN forum which was designed/geared primarily for fellowship and everyday life issues - and because of that, it gives the impression that discussions meant for the sub-forum are to be hashed out in the MAIN area....and visitors reading this get the wrong impression.

On top of that, it has been the case that many of the main members of the MJ forum (including those who are Non-Messianic yet Jewish) will bring up threads on issues that should be discussed in the Sub-Forums.

Moreover, when visitors ask a GENERAL question to all Messianics on something pertaining to the Torah or Jewish culture, it often seems assumed by others posting that only one side can answer....even though the question was given to all - and in the heat of the movement or passion of conversation, people sharing their thoughts equally can be taken to mean others are having their thoughts challenged/demeaned.

When people of all varieties of Messianic come in - all Torah Positive/seeking to walk according to it - to answer a general question by a visitor on Messianic Jewish issues, you already have it where each is passionate for the view they have - and where they're at. So it's natural in a thread that sides will share perspectives others don't agree with....

But many are of the mind that visitors don't have to see all Messianics looking the same - or that others are not allowed to disagree at certain points. People are grown enough to handle disagreements....and if one side doesn't have their view accepted by a visitor if/when they do their own homework, it's not as if anyone is in competition to have the loudest/most dominant voice in the forum .

You may feel Shabbat service should be held on Friday evenings as well as Saturday - whereas I may feel that one should meet solely on Saturday for Messianic Shabbat service - yet when a visitor comes in to visit and asks all Messianics "When is the Biblical time to meet?", it shouldn't be a matter of trying to convince the visitor to NOT listen to another Messianic you may disagree with. The goal should be to present your view as you've experienced in Messianic Judaism (with verification/documentation) - and for others to share theirs - all of it within realm/boundaries of the MJ SoP - and ultimately, folks should let the visitors decide who they listen to

However, if/when one side feels they wanted the visitors to listen exclusively to them and others may not give as much attention to their views, that's where it seems people get upset....and then talk on "You can't answer that - You're not Messianic!!!" (translation: You differ from their preference in Observance or lifestyle and thus are less qualified as they see it to give a perspective as they feel they are qualified to).

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I think everything has worked just fine for years. All it requires is tolerance and maturity to make it work. The hiccups in the forum are to be expected- the internet is a free country, so there will always be adverse opinions expressed and pet doctrines offended. There's no such thing as a "safe haven" on an internet forum, and the places where that has been attempted always boil the numbers down one or two posters, then they close. A good forum is like a simmering pot where the lid keeps things from boiling over but doesn't suffocate activity to the point of spoiling the meal.

Things are really not that difficult so long as we all give space to one another to serve the Lord where we're at - and not be quick to assume the worse of anyone we disagree with.

 

[Steve Petersen]

yakkety yakkety yak.

On and on it goes...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Peacemakers have to cop a few bullets from time to time.

And they gotta be ready to deal with bad attitudes and sarcasm from time to time as well when people don't get their way

On and on it goes...but such is life

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

yakkety yakkety yak.

On and on it goes...

Yakety Sax is pretty kewl also


http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

Rev 9:9
And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle.
Rev 18:13
"and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men.

The Chariot Race Scene From Ben Hur, Now With Yakety Sax - YouTube



.

 

[Lulav]

I believe that loving your neighbor and forgiving and starting over should go beyond just topics here. We may not 'see' each other but one day we will. Do we want to open our arms for a hug or will we hang our heads in shame?

 

[Avodat]

 

[Lulav]

Figures

 

[Tishri1]

This is a good example of being mindful of teaching that is off topic to the main forum but its fine in the bridge builders forum

Not that it isn't good to get false info cleared up but to take it sooo far as to begin a teaching series on the subject that has nothing to do with MJ and could naturally offend them too

Lets just say that is off topic to this particular congregational forum

We do have bridge builders for these extended teachings though

Incorrect - seeing that the Anglicans have long spoken on the issue repeatedly as well as Lutherans as well. And they don't have a mindset that participating in the Eucharist is a matter of "eating human flesh" - and have both addressed it when that claim is commonly thrown out in the Protestant world. And the Orthodox certainly do not view Eucharist as a matter of "eating Human Flesh" either....

Both Anglicans and Lutheran are a part of the Protestant world and support Eucharist - particularly when it comes to the views such as consubstantiation and the concept of Real Presence...even though structures and forms of worship within the Anglican world represented a different kind of middle way, or via media, between Reformed Protestantism and Roman Catholicism — a perspective that came to be highly influential in later theories of Anglican identity, and was expressed in the description "Catholic and Reformed." But they, alongside others such as Ortho culture, have long had to address many stereotypes that typically come from Protestants when assuming anything on Eucharist is about cannibalism or "eating human flesh." And this is in addition to even RCC views since many RCCs have often had to address things within the ranks when it comes to others believing it to be a matter within Catholicism of eating flesh - and others who've long noted where the RCC has altered on its stances/clarified a lot of things that were not well understood originally.

On the differing views of the Eucharist within the Protestant world (as well as the RCC and the Orthodox world), this has often come up in extensive discussions/debates on the issue. Rachael Rachael was present for one of them which was referenced elsewhere when it came to inviting her over to CF - as seen in the thread entitled Can anyone explain the different views of the Eucharist? ( #59 , #61 /#70 , #72 and #93 ).

Contra Mundum has also shared on the issue in-depth before as it concerns the ways things play out.