Something About Mary

[sculleywr]

As to the actions of censing the brasen serpent, how did Hezekiah know it was wrong for them to do?

Because they werent bowing to it, or kissing it, and I cant find where censing is mentioned in respects to what a Holy God commanded to be made. Afterall the brasen serpent is considered an icon by some, namely St John of Damascus.

Hmmm, perhaps a more thorough reading of the Torah should be made:
Exodus 30
Altar of Incense.
1
For burning incense you shall make an altar of acacia wood,a
2
with a square surface, a cubit long, a cubit wide, and two cubits high, with horns that are of one piece with it.
3
Its grate on top, its walls on all four sides, and its horns you shall plate with pure gold. Put a gold molding around it.
4
Underneath the molding you shall put gold rings, two on one side and two on the opposite side, as holders for the poles used in carrying it.
5
Make the poles, too, of acacia wood and plate them with gold.
6
This altar you are to place in front of the veil that hangs before the ark of the covenant where I will meet you.b

7
On it Aaron shall burn fragrant incense. Morning after morning, when he prepares the lamps,
8
and again in the evening twilight, when he lights the lamps, he shall burn incense. Throughout your generations this shall be the regular incense offering before the LORD.
9
On this altar you shall not offer up any profane incense, or any burnt offering or grain offering; nor shall you pour out a libation upon it.
10
Once a year Aaron shall purge its horns.c Throughout your generations he is to purge it once a year with the blood of the atoning purification offering. This altar is most sacred to the LORD.

It was also happening in the time of the Gospel story:
Luke 1
8 Once when Zechariah’s division was on duty and he was serving as priest before God, 9 he was chosen by lot, according to the custom of the priesthood, to go into the temple of the Lord and burn incense. 10 And when the time for the burning of incense came, all the assembled worshipers were praying outside.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Hmmm, perhaps a more thorough reading of the Torah should be made:
Exodus 30
Altar of Incense.
1
For burning incense you shall make an altar of acacia wood,a
2
with a square surface, a cubit long, a cubit wide, and two cubits high, with horns that are of one piece with it.
3
Its grate on top, its walls on all four sides, and its horns you shall plate with pure gold. Put a gold molding around it.
4
Underneath the molding you shall put gold rings, two on one side and two on the opposite side, as holders for the poles used in carrying it.
5
Make the poles, too, of acacia wood and plate them with gold.
6
This altar you are to place in front of the veil that hangs before the ark of the covenant where I will meet you.b

7
On it Aaron shall burn fragrant incense. Morning after morning, when he prepares the lamps,
8
and again in the evening twilight, when he lights the lamps, he shall burn incense. Throughout your generations this shall be the regular incense offering before the LORD.
9
On this altar you shall not offer up any profane incense, or any burnt offering or grain offering; nor shall you pour out a libation upon it.
10
Once a year Aaron shall purge its horns.c Throughout your generations he is to purge it once a year with the blood of the atoning purification offering. This altar is most sacred to the LORD.

It was also happening in the time of the Gospel story:
Luke 1
8 Once when Zechariah’s division was on duty and he was serving as priest before God, 9 he was chosen by lot, according to the custom of the priesthood, to go into the temple of the Lord and burn incense. 10 And when the time for the burning of incense came, all the assembled worshipers were praying outside.

So censing icons is not good then? That correct?

 

[Root of Jesse]

I can find out the name of the "saint" for you.
It happened in NZ, not sure if that makes a difference.
Anecdotal as it is, she was a supervisor here at CF ..
Just saying.

That would be interesting, to know which prospective saint they were rooting for...

Saints are universal, though when they're from your region, you tend to be more proud of them...like a sports team-even non-basketball fans where I am are proud of the Warriors...

My point about it being anecdotal is this...all kinds of Catholics do all kinds of things in the interest of promoting the Church, or one of her children. They're not always properly done. But even when they're not properly done, as in your example (and my opinion), the Church would not be swayed without proper evidence. Saints used to be named sometimes by popular acclaimation, as did some bishops. Some of those, such as St. Christopher, have been walked back. Church does not say they're no longer a saint, just that we don't have any reliable information.

 

[sunlover1]

That would be interesting, to know which prospective saint they were rooting for...

Saints are universal, though when they're from your region, you tend to be more proud of them...like a sports team-even non-basketball fans where I am are proud of the Warriors...

My point about it being anecdotal is this...all kinds of Catholics do all kinds of things in the interest of promoting the Church, or one of her children. They're not always properly done. But even when they're not properly done, as in your example (and my opinion), the Church would not be swayed without proper evidence. Saints used to be named sometimes by popular acclaimation, as did some bishops. Some of those, such as St. Christopher, have been walked back. Church does not say they're no longer a saint, just that we don't have any reliable information.

I think that's how it would be in an ideal world.
Not to be disagreeable, but we both know that the RCC isn't any
more apt to "follow the rules" than any other entity...
(example that I don't want to mention about how higher ups "Follow rules"
you can use your own imagination so I don't have to speak of it)

 

[Root of Jesse]

I think that's how it would be in an ideal world.
Not to be disagreeable, but we both know that the RCC isn't any
more apt to "follow the rules" than any other entity...
(example that I don't want to mention about how higher ups "Follow rules"
you can use your own imagination so I don't have to speak of it)

Sunlover, the one basic thing we must all remember is that every last Catholic, from Peter down to this time, was a sinner. The Catholic Church ONLY buries sinners.

But there's a difference between what people inside the hierarchy do, and what the Church teaches, at times. The rules are always applied unevenly, it's a human condition. There's been bad popes and bishops. Even as good as we consider JPII, we also recognize that he had weaknesses. We never mean to say that just because you have your "Catholic card" means that we're better than anyone else. I wrote somewhere about my school days and how perfectly terrible the kids in Catholic School were, as well as the priests, brothers, and lay teachers. But if you're a student of the Church, and study what the Church really teaches...it's a different matter.

 

[sunlover1]

Sunlover, the one basic thing we must all remember is that every last Catholic, from Peter down to this time, was a sinner. The Catholic Church ONLY buries sinners.

But there's a difference between what people inside the hierarchy do, and what the Church teaches, at times. The rules are always applied unevenly, it's a human condition. There's been bad popes and bishops. Even as good as we consider JPII, we also recognize that he had weaknesses. We never mean to say that just because you have your "Catholic card" means that we're better than anyone else. I wrote somewhere about my school days and how perfectly terrible the kids in Catholic School were, as well as the priests, brothers, and lay teachers. But if you're a student of the Church, and study what the Church really teaches...it's a different matter.

Thanks ROJ.
I just wanted to make sure we were keeping things real.
You're welcome to do the same with me.
And you do

 

[sculleywr]

So censing icons is not good then? That correct?

Never said that. The censing, if you would take notice of the description of the Tabernacle, occurred in a place filled with images, graven, drawn, and even embroidered onto the Veil between the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies.

There was much more than just censing going on in regards to the Brazen serpent. It was obvious that the making or reverence of the item was not sinful, because even God commanded the creation of it and then had them place the object into the Holy Place.

The root of the second command is found in the commandment preceding it. If one is worshiping an Icon, then he is committing idolatry. However, neither the Orthodox nor the Romans worship the Icons themselves, even if they are Icons of Christ.

Like the Soldier at battle, we carry the Icons as images of our family to give us hope in the midst of our tribulation. We come to Church and are surrounded by images of the many witnesses we have, of St. Basil, my patron Saint. The image of my brother will be in the vicinity of my own personal Icon corner, to remind me that he is with Christ praying for me.

It is this fact, that not only are there people that I don't know in Heaven. But there are people in my family which I know in a personal way are in Heaven. And not only are they there, but I know they hear me, even though I cannot, as my spirit is dull and the ears thereof are blocked for now. The Icons are, to me, a blessed hope of the promise of good things to come.

 

[Fireinfolding]

My question still is

As to the actions of censing the brasen serpent, how did Hezekiah know it was wrong for them to do?

Because they werent bowing to it, or kissing it, and I cant find where censing is mentioned in respects to what a Holy God commanded to be made. Afterall the brasen serpent is considered an icon by some, namely St John of Damascus.

 

[sculleywr]

My question still is

Perhaps it is that there was something connected to the censing that was wrong. Scripture never claimed that the censing itself was wrong, and there are several things that are unrevealed in Scripture. Examples would be the strange fire that Aaron's sons offered in Leviticus. What does strange fire mean? I've heard about twelve meanings, ranging from offering to actual idols to simply having their hearts in the wrong place.

Since Scripture has the burning of incense before engraved objects and altars as a command, it is obvious that the act of censing, even censing of objects, is not wrong, for otherwise God would be contradicting Himself.

 

[sunlover1]

Perhaps it is that there was something connected to the censing that was wrong. Scripture never claimed that the censing itself was wrong, and there are several things that are unrevealed in Scripture. Examples would be the strange fire that Aaron's sons offered in Leviticus. What does strange fire mean? I've heard about twelve meanings, ranging from offering to actual idols to simply having their hearts in the wrong place.

Since Scripture has the burning of incense before engraved objects and altars as a command, it is obvious that the act of censing, even censing of objects, is not wrong, for otherwise God would be contradicting Himself.

I'm a bit confused about why you don't know the answer to this.
I thought your church had the fullness of truth.
Was that some other group I"m thinking of?

 

[sculleywr]

I'm a bit confused about why you don't know the answer to this.
I thought your church had the fullness of truth.
Was that some other group I"m thinking of?

If you think the fullness of truth applies to knowing every detail of what happened outside of the Tradition which the Church was given, then you are seriously misinterpreting what fullness we are referring to. Fullness of truth is referring to full doctrinal truth. Not that the Church is omniscient. Besides that, I'm just a single person in the Church. It may be that someone out there knows the answer. But I am not the whole Church. I have not been able to find anything beyond the OSB commentary saying this:

"18:4 The spiritual reality of the bronze serpent made by Moses (Nm 21:9) is lost and its meaning worthless."

what that means, I am not entirely sure. But if you want to pick apart little details, lets just take your application and apply it to something else, like the essence of how God can be both three and one.

 

[sunlover1]

If you think the fullness of truth applies to knowing every detail of what happened outside of the Tradition which the Church was given, then you are seriously misinterpreting what fullness we are referring to.

Scripture isn't "tradition the church was given"?

Fullness of truth is referring to full doctrinal truth. Not that the Church is omniscient. Besides that, I'm just a single person in the Church. It may be that someone out there knows the answer. But I am not the whole Church. I have not been able to find anything beyond the OSB commentary saying this:

"18:4 The spiritual reality of the bronze serpent made by Moses (Nm 21:9) is lost and its meaning worthless."

Now that's some crazy sheet answer there. (the non answer
you just gave me that is )

I haven't been following the question you're puzzling over,
but when I have a Scripture question, I trust God to 'reveal'
it to me. I'll scroll back and take a look too, if I continue to
open this site when I'm supposed to be working!
ARRGH

what that means, I am not entirely sure. But if you want to pick apart little details,

Seriously?
I figured if someone say that they have the fullness of truth,
then that means that they do!
How could I know that having the fullness of truth doesn't really
mean you have the fullness of truth?

lets just take your application and apply it to something else, like the essence of how God can be both three and one.

Seriously?
You're going to tell me that you KNOW this?
Have at it.
I'm all ears.
Skeptical, but all ears

 

[Fireinfolding]

Hezekiah called it Nehushtan (which means "a thing of" brass)

And moral of the story is dont bake cakes unto, burn incense and kiss things, whether it was made by Moses or a pagan

 

[sculleywr]

Scripture isn't "tradition the church was given"?

Scripture is part of the Tradition the Church was given.

Now that's some crazy sheet answer there. (the non answer
you just gave me that is )

I haven't been following the question you're puzzling over,
but when I have a Scripture question, I trust God to 'reveal'
it to me. I'll scroll back and take a look too, if I continue to
open this site when I'm supposed to be working!
ARRGH

Scripture doesn't reveal it, and I don't know the answer. So all I can give you is the very confusing commentary in my Bible. Since Scripture cannot contradict Scripture, the action of censing objects, which is elsewhere commanded, cannot be wrong. Otherwise you would have God commanding people to do, in every day services, what is wrong to do.

Seriously?
I figured if someone say that they have the fullness of truth,
then that means that they do!
How could I know that having the fullness of truth doesn't really
mean you have the fullness of truth?

Refer below:

Seriously?
You're going to tell me that you KNOW this?
Have at it.
I'm all ears.
Skeptical, but all ears

Exactly! Not everything has been revealed to the Church or mankind. Fullness of the truth means the fullness of the truth which was revealed by God, through Scripture, through Christ, and from Christ via His Apostles.

Had we claimed to have the "Comprehensiveness of the truth" then we would need to be able to explain both the reason the censing was wrong and the nature of how God is three AND one. But we only truly claim to have the Fullness of the Revealed truth of God, which we simplify to three words with "fullness of Truth." Perhaps the abbreviation leads to misconceptions, but it assumes that we are talking about revealed truth.

To bring that full circle to the topic of Icons, the fact that Luke made Icons, and that Christ is said to have made an Icon (not the Shroud of Turin), gives support to the claim. We have two of Luke's Icons, one of which is in India, and one in Greece (they kinda traveled). Besides that, Icons can be found in most churches dug up in archaeology, as well as Jewish catacombs and Synagogues.

 

[sculleywr]

Hezekiah called it Nehushtan (which means "a thing of" brass)

And moral of the story is dont bake cakes unto, burn incense and kiss things, whether it was made by Moses or a pagan

it's an applied interpretation, not the central moral of the story. Unless, of course, you have something that says it is the moral of the story.

 

[sunlover1]

Scripture is part of the Tradition the Church was given.



Scripture doesn't reveal it, and I don't know the answer. So all I can give you is the very confusing commentary in my Bible. Since Scripture cannot contradict Scripture, the action of censing objects, which is elsewhere commanded, cannot be wrong. Otherwise you would have God commanding people to do, in every day services, what is wrong to do.



Refer below:



Exactly! Not everything has been revealed to the Church or mankind. Fullness of the truth means the fullness of the truth which was revealed by God, through Scripture, through Christ, and from Christ via His Apostles.

Had we claimed to have the "Comprehensiveness of the truth" then we would need to be able to explain both the reason the censing was wrong and the nature of how God is three AND one. But we only truly claim to have the Fullness of the Revealed truth of God, which we simplify to three words with "fullness of Truth." Perhaps the abbreviation leads to misconceptions, but it assumes that we are talking about revealed truth.

To bring that full circle to the topic of Icons, the fact that Luke made Icons, and that Christ is said to have made an Icon (not the Shroud of Turin), gives support to the claim. We have two of Luke's Icons, one of which is in India, and one in Greece (they kinda traveled). Besides that, Icons can be found in most churches dug up in archaeology, as well as Jewish catacombs and Synagogues.

Then why do you even bother with the "we have the fullness of truth"
card, when we ALL have that same truth available to us?

 

[Thekla]

It might be considered what the purpose of the censing became (why the censing, and the direction of the action) as well as its relation to the coming of Christ in the fulness of time.

The brass serpent had a purpose as shadow, and to address an immediate situation. Mistaking this for the fulfillment undermined the reception of the promised incarnate Christ as Healer (savior); censing (blessing) indicates a redirection of the use, or is not right-use. Much as the Temple was destroyed following the crucifixion (as the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, and the crucifixion of His body per His prophetic statement, negated the need for continuing the Passover sacrifice), the serpent was a temporal healing and a shadow of the true healing in Christ.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I think its pretty cool how it points out how Hezekiah gave it no such reverance and called it a THING of brass (by interpretation of the word) and smashed it. And that which God himself commanded Moses to make and God (right there) giving His approval.

God wasnt, all like bad bad Hezekiah I commanded that one to be made, respect my holy icon, what were you thinking? Do you know all of these peoples hearts to do such a thing? Some werent burning incense unto it with an unclean heart (or wrong intent) because I know (I am God)

(That type thing)

 

[sculleywr]

Then why do you even bother with the "we have the fullness of truth"
card, when we ALL have that same truth available to us?

Because it is obvious that not all people have the whole Apostolic Tradition. The Apostolic Tradition is not JUST Scripture. It is the Scripture and the proper Doctrine and Church in which that Scripture must be interpreted.

deductive logic:

1. A loving God would not give us a command which we could not follow.
2. Our God is a loving God
Conclusion: Our God would not give us a command we could not follow
Scripture: For with every temptation, He has given us all a way out.

1. Our God would not give us a command we could not follow
2. Our God commanded us to follow the Tradition given by the Apostles in spoken and written word (II Thessalonians 2:15)
Conclusion: That Tradition is available and followable today.

 

[Thekla]

I think its pretty cool how it points out how Hezekiah gave it no such reverance and called it a THING of brass (by interpretation of the word) and smashed it. And that which God himself commanded Moses to make and God (right there) giving His approval.

God wasnt, all like bad bad Hezekiah I commanded that one to be made, respect my holy icon, what were you thinking? Do you know all of these peoples hearts to do such a thing? Some werent burning incense unto it with an unclean heart (or wrong intent) because I know (I am God)

(That type thing)

Best not touch the Ark of the Covenant, though