Something About Mary

[sunlover1]

Let us not put ourselves in the place of what John saw happening in heaven.
It's not about us on earth.

But those prayers are about us and are offered by us,

Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit,
and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication
for all saints;

It was what John saw going on in Heaven...hence the angels surrounding the throne, and the 4 living creatures et al. I believe this confuses ppl otherwise when they are remiss of the description that this is going on in Heaven.

Yes, it was going on 'in Heaven"

Revelation even states the saints shall judge the nations of earth with the Lord. .

New International Version (©2011)
Or do you not know that the Lord's people will judge the world?
And if you are to judge the world,
are you not competent to judge trivial cases?

New Living Translation (©2007)
Don't you realize that someday we believers will judge the world?

And since you are going to judge the world,

can't you decide even these little things among yourselves?

English Standard Version (©2001)
Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world?

And if the world is to be judged by you,
are you incompetent to try trivial cases?

They know what we do

They're not omniscient.
how would they know what we do?

Also - to understand what incense is - we go back to the OT where it says incense was offered by the priests in the Temple because it was pleasing to God.

We're kings AND priests.
Revelation 1:6
and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God
and Father--to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

 

[sunlover1]

Will ttyl - have to run to Church and work after.
Have a safe day.

You have a wonderful day.
And thank you for the discussion!

 

[Thekla]

I was just trying to sort it out. I wasn't joking LOL
(I know i do joke too much so I should make sure to use
a smiley .. that guy thought i was attacking you when I
was joking yestrday.. even WITH a smiley heh)

Ah - so then could you describe what underlies your question/statement ?

A text taken out of context is a pretext for prooftext.
That was taken out of context and stretched.
Some things can be taken from context and make
perfect sense.. this time however...

It seems you've forgotten the subtext - which is Christ, His actions and promise. What the Scriptures attest is true, and these passages are in the context of Christ as the conqueror of death, victorious, and the firstborn.

What the Scriptures say is true; and the promises are true. The verses were addressed to those still sojourning, pointing to their hope and participation in what is already true and fulfilled.

If one considers the body of Christ as in bits - some biologically alive and some biologically dead - then I could agree with your position. But the Scriptures attest otherwise, and the thread of Scripture attests otherwise.
The Scriptures attest that our union in Christ is the zoe, which is eternal (not the bios, which passes).

If we are in Him, if He is in us, then all of and with Him is with us as well. The body of Christ is one, and He is in the Father ... for sure, Revelation attests the awareness of those who are no longer biologically breathing.
All things are being reconciled through Him; (in our biological understanding/experience) some then, some now, some in the future.

"And He is the head of the body, the Church, Who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He might come to hold first place. For all the fulness was pleased to dwell in Him; and through Him to reconcile all things to Him, having made peace through the blood of His Cross, through Him, whether the things on earth or the things in the heavens." Col 18-20

As Christ said, "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living." Matt 12:27

And so if we die in Him, we live in Him having participation in the life which is eternal; though Christ at His crucifixion suffered death (separation of body and soul) yet he preached the Gospel to those in Hades. Moses and Elias, though dead, appeared with Christ in the witness of Peter, James, and John.

Because 'saint's' are not omniscient.

Yes, I agree.
But this claim of the "omniscience" of the Saints has not been made by me, so the statement is part of our discussion.

Healing comes from God, amen.

Oh most definitely!
And he even makes sure we know WHERE the participants dwell:
Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth
agree about anything they ask for, it will be done
for them by my Father in heaven

This He says before His resurrection; it is still true, but now His body is the living Church

 

[Thekla]

Every world religion professes something similar, for example, those in those scriptures who were professing the positive benefits in offering incense to the Queen of heaven.

I know I couldnt bear a true witness to whether or not Mary was praying or not for someone specifically. But neither could those offering incense in those scriptures to queen of heaven, they too could only be convinced (by what they believed) that this was so, but couldnt prove it was by her either. It mattered most to those who based much faith in her (and her powers) as they thought she had powers.

All I know is that the true apostles declared the wholeness of another was always by the name of Jesus Christ. They set the credit at the feet of Jesus Christ always.

Just as Peter said, Why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?

To be imbued/energized with the power of God is the source of the healings (and miracles in general) effected by Peter and others; both Peter and others as saint and as Saint.

And this is true of all benefit that comes from the prayers of the saints and Saints; and we attest that this is so.

The Saints always point to Christ in their life (both the zoe and the bios).

 

[sunlover1]

Ah - so then could you describe what underlies your question/statement ?

This:

Originally Posted by Thekla

God is omniscient; those in Him can know what He wills them to know. The spiritual ears hear by God.
​

your answer to how 'saints' can 'hear our prayers'.
I asked you if you were suggesting
that GOD hears us,
then relays our prayers TO them,
and then they pray to God FOR us.

yeah or nay would be much easier for me to understand.

 

[Fireinfolding]

1st i want to put in the context - 2nd i want to show the history of this.

Jer 44:
[15] Then all the men that knew that their wives sacrificed to other gods: and all the women of whom there stood by a great multitude, and all the people of them that dwelt in the land of Egypt in Phatures, answered Jeremias, saying: [16] As for the word which thou hast spoken to us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken to thee: [17] But we will certainly do every word that shall proceed out of our own mouth, to sacrifice to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings to her, as we and our fathers have done, our kings, and our princes in the cities of Juda, and in the streets of Jerusalem: and we were filled with bread, and it was well with us, and we saw no evil.

Historians have discovered - a few artifacts showing besides among other things that the Israelis did give sacrifices to other gods - even queens of the gods - because their pagan neighbors did.
The Jews considered the 'One God' as the Almighty - but that the lesser gods existed too.
They also at one time believed God was married. [per artifacts]

What's interesting to note - that tho these gods and such didnt exist - the Roman letter states God wrote His laws in the pagans hearts. Now Jews were not to do this - for they had God's laws [but they were remiss on it because they thot He was Top God rather than only God]

What to do - without knowledge - when one knows someone has made them. This is why the Gentiles were not at fault for their practices... because God didnt make Himself literally known to them - only in His line of ppl to keep all things preserved for His coming.

However; pagans ironically hit the mark - knowing there was a God to serve. Some went too far and made Molech 'eat' children. That would be more demonic which was unpleasing to God.

Some say - Christians borrowed from the pagans. Yet philosophically - if we take a hard look at them - they too were prophetic. Yet they didnt know... they just knew - somehow. Since God wrote things in their hearts - so when the time came - they would convert to the truth.

Now Jeremiah was before Christ - so we know this has nothing to do with Our Lady in Heaven - but the pagans knew in their hearts - a position would exist. Tho they had not the law and truth - they still intuitively knew something.

If we step back from the black and white and see nuances - they too were prophetic - even if they failed in our eyes. But they didnt 'know' and why it says in Romans they were 'saved' because the laws of God were in their hearts.

I just thot this was of interest. Being we see they too sought thru unknown ways - the ways of God.

Jesus said His right hand was preserved...when the mother asked if her sons could fill the spot.
Yet Jesus is on the right hand of the Father - so a position did exist on His right hand as well.


But looking at Saints - in Heaven...for John is speaking of his vision regarding Heaven ...


Rev 5
[7] And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne. [8] And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints: [9] And they sung a new canticle, saying: Thou art worthy, O Lord, to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; because thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God, in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.



[8] The prayers of saints: Here we see that the saints in heaven offer up to Christ the prayers of the faithful upon earth.

Thanks for your thoughts on this WA

 

[Fireinfolding]

Philippians:
Salute every saint in Christ Jesus.
The brethren which are with me greet you.



the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:

Those are OUR prayers.
WE are those saints.

I'll explain why later when I get a chance.
Need to get ready for church.

Psalm 141:2 Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.

I love those

 

[Fireinfolding]

The Saints always point to Christ in their life (both the zoe and the bios).

Jesus Christ, amen

 

[SolomonVII]

Jesus Christ, amen

Soli Deo Gloria; to God alone belongs the glory.

 

[Root of Jesse]

That those who have passed away are omniscient?


Well but are we basing our beliefs on what we think or don't think?
I can do that all day long. Might be fun to make up my own little
fantasy world


What makes you believe that you can communicate with spiritual beings?

Revelation 5:8 shows that the saints in heaven hear our prayers. This is not to say that we hear them. Praying to saints is not like a seance, lol.

 

[Root of Jesse]

EXCEPT that all of the following
NET,
God's Word,
ASV,
Douay-Rheims,
Darby,
English Revised

...also translated it inaccurately?
I'm gonna assume they understand the languages
better than you do, since there are so many of them
and it's their vocation.
Here's what's usually considered quite a good translation:

Young's Literal Translation

Ye do not make to yourselves idols; and graven image or standing image ye do not set up to yourselves; and a stone of imagery ye do not put in your land, to bow yourselves to it; for I am Jehovah your God.
​

Truthfully, no translation is perfect.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I was wondering then, how people who think that believe there are saints in heaven? If you don't know yours, how in the world would you know Mary's?

OTOH, you have made a powerful argument for OSAS, albeit we do know and cannot fail because of His love for us.

Because Scripture is full of what we know about Mary.

Salvation is not a one time thing. I've been saved by my baptism, and I'm working on my salvation...It's about how we run the race...

 

[Root of Jesse]

So yes, it's all speculation?


Yes, a close friend was asked by her (RC) church to pray for a man's
cancer but to pray TO a woman who'd passed because "she" needed
so many miracles attributed to her name to attain 'sainthood"

My friend suggestted (and my point too for this thread)
that IF the man's cancer left, that would prove nothing
about the deceased woman's saintliness.
Neighbors or relatives could be praying
... To God.

Your friend is right. And your example is anecdotal. I don't believe "the church" asked someone to pray for someone for any other reason than that the person needed prayers. Said act alone would probably not qualify for the naming of a saint. Heck, Mother Teresa has not been canonized yet, and neither has Fulton J. Sheen...Both have far more reason to be canonized.

 

[Root of Jesse]

No problem. Just wondering how anyone knows whether Mary ended her life in God's love? Bible doesn't say. Certainly we'd all assume so. But why? OSAS is a powerful reason. IOW, since we don't know about Mary, but we assume she "made it", then why not assume that for the rest of Christians?

We believe that Mary was immaculately conceived, and preserved from the stain of sin. Therefore, she made it, since anyone in heaven is purified from their earthly sins, if they had any.

 

[sunlover1]

Your friend is right. And your example is anecdotal. I don't believe "the church" asked someone to pray for someone for any other reason than that the person needed prayers. Said act alone would probably not qualify for the naming of a saint. Heck, Mother Teresa has not been canonized yet, and neither has Fulton J. Sheen...Both have far more reason to be canonized.

I can find out the name of the "saint" for you.
It happened in NZ, not sure if that makes a difference.
Anecdotal as it is, she was a supervisor here at CF ..
Just saying.

 

[sculleywr]

Philippians:
Salute every saint in Christ Jesus.
The brethren which are with me greet you.



the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:

Those are OUR prayers.
WE are those saints.

I'll explain why later when I get a chance.
Need to get ready for church.

then what? Those who died for the cause of Christ do not receive the benefit of being heard by God? God doesn't give them His ear?

 

[sculleywr]

If you'd like to go into actions sure. Censing images is shown, bowing before them, kissing baal, kissing calves and all that is spoken of.

Should we start a new thread or go into that here?

I gotta head out for the day in a few minutes though, got some errands with the hubby to make

thanks for giving at least a source. However, since there is disagreement between translators, and graven image is third in the list, I will prefer the normative, which is the first definition given. Especially given the fact that the Greek septuagint uses the word "Eidolon", which means Idol. If we were to open it up to all graven images, then one should take every photo, picture, and image, including their license or photo ID, and toss them out, because we have Graven Images all around us.

As to the actions, the actions are defined by the motives behind them. Kissing an Icon is not idolatry without the worship being ascribed to the Icon itself, in the same way that a soldier is not guilty of adultery for kissing a picture of his wife while he is on deployment.

 

[sculleywr]

Soli Deo Gloria; to God alone belongs the glory.

in words it sounds nice. But if all glory belonging to God means that you do not need to venerate the Saints, then it also means that you do not need to respect those you meet every day. You can be the rudest person in the world under the guise of giving all glory to God, justifying it by virtue of the defense that you are not giving them respect that belongs only to God.

 

[sculleywr]

This:
your answer to how 'saints' can 'hear our prayers'.
I asked you if you were suggesting
that GOD hears us,
then relays our prayers TO them,
and then they pray to God FOR us.

yeah or nay would be much easier for me to understand.

The answer is no. They hear because of the ability given by God to hear. We honestly don't know WHY prayers are effective, because the argument that God knows everything would logically say that prayer is unnecessary to God. Therefore, since prayer is unnecessary for God, then it must be necessary for someone, since God commanded it.

Prayer is necessary for us. Our knowledge that others are praying for us is as important as the prayer itself. And, by praying for others, we can sometimes become the tools through which God works a miracle in their lives.

 

[Fireinfolding]

thanks for giving at least a source. However, since there is disagreement between translators, and graven image is third in the list, I will prefer the normative, which is the first definition given. Especially given the fact that the Greek septuagint uses the word "Eidolon", which means Idol. If we were to open it up to all graven images, then one should take every photo, picture, and image, including their license or photo ID, and toss them out, because we have Graven Images all around us.

As to the actions, the actions are defined by the motives behind them. Kissing an Icon is not idolatry without the worship being ascribed to the Icon itself, in the same way that a soldier is not guilty of adultery for kissing a picture of his wife while he is on deployment.

As to the actions of censing the brasen serpent, how did Hezekiah know it was wrong for them to do?

Because they werent bowing to it, or kissing it, and I cant find where censing is mentioned in respects to what a Holy God commanded to be made. Afterall the brasen serpent is considered an icon by some, namely St John of Damascus.