Something About Mary

[Albion]

What do you think about this;

I was wondering then, how people who believe that Mary is in heaven, know this? The bible doesn't say. Certainly tradition says so, but why? Is it because of OSAS?

Albeit we do not really know about Mary, but OSAS says she's there.

"OSAS" doesn't say that anyone is there. We do not know who has passed on to glory, just as we do not know who is among God's elect. We can make reasonable guesses, as with Mary, though.

 

[WarriorAngel]

So yes, it's all speculation?


Yes, a close friend was asked by her (RC) church to pray for a man's
cancer but to pray TO a woman who'd passed because "she" needed
so many miracles attributed to her name to attain 'sainthood"

My friend suggestted (and my point too for this thread)
that IF the man's cancer left, that would prove nothing
about the deceased woman's saintliness.
Neighbors or relatives could be praying
... To God.

Not so much.
The reason being - the person asking 'the person in line for canonization' - doesnt usually ask anyone else to pray for them.

Its a matter of prudence.. if they wish to assist in the process - they dont seek prayers from anyone else.

 

[WarriorAngel]

"OSAS" doesn't say that anyone is there. We do not know who has passed on to glory, just as we do not know who is among God's elect. We can make reasonable guesses, as with Mary, though.

That doesnt make sense.

How do the elect not make it?
If they are elected - to be righteous - saved - once and always - then how wouldnt anyone know but to just guess?

At least i understand - we were 'saved' by the Lord [and He didnt abandon us] - but we personally run the race [persevere] and avoid [mortal] sin so as to attain the goal.
It's not a one time thing - its an ongoing effort.

 

[WarriorAngel]

What do you think about this;

I was wondering then, how people who believe that Mary is in heaven, know this? The bible doesn't say. Certainly tradition says so, but why? Is it because of OSAS?

Albeit we do not really know about Mary, but OSAS says she's there.

According to Tradition - Mary remained without sin.
That was her part [effort] - and it was unlike Eve who was without sin - but sinned and all of humanity fell.

 

[sunlover1]

Not so much.
The reason being - the person asking 'the person in line for canonization' - doesnt usually ask anyone else to pray for them.

Its a matter of prudence.. if they wish to assist in the process - they dont seek prayers from anyone else.

Well they don't need to 'ask'.
See:

Statement made by Thekla earlier:
Physical hearing is a matter of proximity; spiritual hearing is not an effect of physical proximity (as in the man from Macedoniki praying Paul who was not in physical proximity to the man). Paul heard the man's prayer to him in God; ie "heard/saw" above time and space (which is bound with time and to our perception of it).

According to Tradition - Mary remained without sin.
That was her part [effort] - and it was unlike Eve who was without sin - but sinned and all of humanity fell.

According to my tradition, Jesus remained without sin.
That was His part
UNLIKE the first adam who sinned and all of humanity suffered.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Well they don't need to 'ask'.
See:




According to my tradition, Jesus remained without sin.
That was His part
UNLIKE the first adam who sinned and all of humanity suffered.

True and indeed.
He took Adams part to undo what was done [Adam means man - how cool is that?]
And His Mother took the part of Eve [which means mother of all - its still cool] - to assist in undoing what the 1st couple did.

Another interesting thing - Eve came from Adam's side. Jesus on the other hand came from Mary's womb.

Could look at this all day and see parallels.

One thing is for sure - God must have instantaneously known - as only He can - that He would have to retrace the steps to undo the deed. Like some sort of 'mirror universe' .... scene 1 - man and woman - scene 2 - man and woman. Deed done - deed undone.

 

[sunlover1]

True and indeed.
He took Adams part to undo what was done [Adam means man - how cool is that?]
And His Mother took the part of Eve [which means mother of all - its still cool] - to assist in undoing what the 1st couple did.

How'd Mary take the part of Eve?
NOT a good part to take imo.
Did I miss something again?

Yes, theology is a deep thang.
We will be discussing it when we're ninety most likely

 

[WarriorAngel]

It took one woman and one man in a state of perfect grace to cause the fall - so it then took one man and one woman - in a perfect state - to undo the damage and reopen Heaven.

She became the New Eve - without giving in to satan. Not to say she duplicated - but did what Eve could not do.

If i have the time - which is unlikely, i would go thru some more parallels. But have to work - among other things - now that the weather is finally getting nice.

 

[Thekla]

What do you think about this;

I was wondering then, how people who believe that Mary is in heaven, know this? The bible doesn't say. Certainly tradition says so, but why? Is it because of OSAS?

Albeit we do not really know about Mary, but OSAS says she's there.

The empirical evidence - answered prayers ... The knowledge of the end of her life which is remembered, etc.

For your confession, I suppose OSAS is how you would claim to know.

Do you commemorate and remember the lives of Mary and other Saints in your Church ?

 

[Thekla]

So yes, it's all speculation?

No

Consider the witness of Scripture that I've posted ...

Yes, a close friend was asked by her (RC) church to pray for a man's
cancer but to pray TO a woman who'd passed because "she" needed
so many miracles attributed to her name to attain 'sainthood"

My friend suggestted (and my point too for this thread)
that IF the man's cancer left, that would prove nothing
about the deceased woman's saintliness.
Neighbors or relatives could be praying
... To God.

I'm not RC, so I cannot comment on their method, as I don't know about it from 'within'.

As for those recognized as Saints in the EO, there are many ways that this is known, and that it is known how the Saint's prayer were answered.

And of course others often are praying as well.

How is it known in your experience that when the prayers of neighbors and relatives are answered, there were not also Saints, their earthly sojourn completed, also praying ?

Ultimately, it is God who effects the healing, etc. Heaven is a Kingdom; God has always sought and used human involvement ... this is abundantly clear in the Scriptures, and beyond the span of time described there.

 

[Standing Up]

"OSAS" doesn't say that anyone is there. We do not know who has passed on to glory, just as we do not know who is among God's elect. We can make reasonable guesses, as with Mary, though.

Well, Mary is the obvious choice for discussion here, but there are other saints to whom they pray.

Given the bible is silent about Mary's end, why would one assume she or Thomas or Peter or John or Stephen or Titus or anyone else "made it"? OSAS is the only explanation or phrase it as one who is elected to define OSAS.

 

[Fireinfolding]

The empirical evidence - answered prayers ...

This what you said right here I wanted to look at Thelks. In my earlier days I would be making more of a comparison to the queen of heaven in quoting the below, but Im not in this case, its what they said at the base of each verse that got me thinking myself

For example here...

Jerm 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth (orally in what we say in contrast to the prophet) to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done ( traditionally so, as) we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then (our benefits were noticible to us, for) had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

So they point out their plenty and seeing no evil in doing that contrary to what the prophets tell them not to do

But they also point out their lack after leaving off of doing this too

Jerm 44:18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.


I find this particularly odd myself. Like I might say the same thing, evidence is in answered prayers somewhat, or plenty (and no evil) verses in want of all things and them linking the two (in their reasoning).

Thats not what I used to look at before but what come to my eye, and that was the first thing I thought of when you posted that.

Ever notice this?

 

[Thekla]

This what you said right here I wanted to look at Thelks. In my earlier days I would be making more of a comparison to the queen of heaven in quoting the below, but Im not in this case, its what they said at the base of each verse that got me thinking myself

For example here...

Jerm 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth (orally in what we say in contrast to the prophet) to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done ( traditionally so, as) we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then (our benefits were noticible to us, for) had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

So they point out their plenty and seeing no evil in doing that contrary to what the prophets tell them not to do

But they also point out their lack after leaving off of doing this too

Jerm 44:18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.


I find this particularly odd myself. Like I might say the same thing, evidence is in answered prayers somewhat, or plenty (and no evil) verses in want of all things and them linking the two (in their reasoning).

Thats not what I used to look at before but what come to my eye, and that was the first thing I thought of when you posted that.

Ever notice this?

Yes ... and indeed Satan is not wont to attack (bring trouble) to those already "his". It's those who are tending toward or of God who tend to attract Satan's attacks ...

Nor is Christianity the only 'faith' that claims healings and miracles (not involving Saints, but some considered healers within other faiths).

Your question applies to any kind of miracle or healing - both by the prayers of Saints and of saints (those still "on earth", biologically alive).

But there is a feature that is not found in the healings etc. in other faiths -- the pointing to Christ. For example, Muslims have been converted to Christianity 'through' Mary; her prayers answered to heal some who profess Islam.

When Christians ask Saints for their prayers, it is within a context of prayer to and worship of God. (In the EO, the Paraklesis and Akathist services are typical prayer-forms for asking a Saint for prayer -- these always begin with worship of God, Psalms, prayers, and the attention to God is also interspersed in these services.)

How do those who ask their Christian neighbors, relatives, etc. to pray for them or lay hands on them for healing know the healing they receive is of God ?

 

[sunlover1]

No

I was just trying to sort it out. I wasn't joking LOL
(I know i do joke too much so I should make sure to use
a smiley .. that guy thought i was attacking you when I
was joking yestrday.. even WITH a smiley heh)

Consider the witness of Scripture that I've posted ...

A text taken out of context is a pretext for prooftext.
That was taken out of context and stretched.
Some things can be taken from context and make
perfect sense.. this time however...

How is it known in your experience that when the prayers of neighbors and relatives are answered, there were not also Saints, their earthly sojourn completed, also praying ?

Because 'saint's' are not omniscient.

Ultimately, it is God who effects the healing, etc.

Healing comes from God, amen.

Heaven is a Kingdom; God has always sought and used human involvement

Oh most definitely!
And he even makes sure we know WHERE the participants dwell:
Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth
agree about anything they ask for, it will be done
for them by my Father in heaven

 

[Fireinfolding]

Yes ... and indeed Satan is not wont to attack (bring trouble) to those already "his". It's those who are tending toward or of God who tend to attract Satan's attacks ...

Nor is Christianity the only 'faith' that claims healings and miracles (not involving Saints, but some considered healers within other faiths).

Your question applies to any kind of miracle or healing - both by the prayers of Saints and of saints (those still "on earth", biologically alive).

But there is a feature that is not found in the healings etc. in other faiths -- the pointing to Christ. For example, Muslims have been converted to Christianity 'through' Mary; her prayers answered to heal some who profess Islam.

When Christians ask Saints for their prayers, it is within a context of prayer to and worship of God. (In the EO, the Paraklesis and Akathist services are typical prayer-forms for asking a Saint for prayer -- these always begin with worship of God, Psalms, prayers, and the attention to God is also interspersed in these services.)

How do those who ask their Christian neighbors, relatives, etc. to pray for them or lay hands on them for healing know the healing they receive is of God ?

Every world religion professes something similar, for example, those in those scriptures who were professing the positive benefits in offering incense to the Queen of heaven.

I know I couldnt bear a true witness to whether or not Mary was praying or not for someone specifically. But neither could those offering incense in those scriptures to queen of heaven, they too could only be convinced (by what they believed) that this was so, but couldnt prove it was by her either. It mattered most to those who based much faith in her (and her powers) as they thought she had powers.

All I know is that the true apostles declared the wholeness of another was always by the name of Jesus Christ. They set the credit at the feet of Jesus Christ always.

Just as Peter said, Why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?

 

[WarriorAngel]

This what you said right here I wanted to look at Thelks. In my earlier days I would be making more of a comparison to the queen of heaven in quoting the below, but Im not in this case, its what they said at the base of each verse that got me thinking myself

For example here...

Jerm 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth (orally in what we say in contrast to the prophet) to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done ( traditionally so, as) we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then (our benefits were noticible to us, for) had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

So they point out their plenty and seeing no evil in doing that contrary to what the prophets tell them not to do

But they also point out their lack after leaving off of doing this too

Jerm 44:18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.


I find this particularly odd myself. Like I might say the same thing, evidence is in answered prayers somewhat, or plenty (and no evil) verses in want of all things and them linking the two (in their reasoning).

Thats not what I used to look at before but what come to my eye, and that was the first thing I thought of when you posted that.

Ever notice this?

1st i want to put in the context - 2nd i want to show the history of this.

Jer 44:
[15] Then all the men that knew that their wives sacrificed to other gods: and all the women of whom there stood by a great multitude, and all the people of them that dwelt in the land of Egypt in Phatures, answered Jeremias, saying: [16] As for the word which thou hast spoken to us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken to thee: [17] But we will certainly do every word that shall proceed out of our own mouth, to sacrifice to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings to her, as we and our fathers have done, our kings, and our princes in the cities of Juda, and in the streets of Jerusalem: and we were filled with bread, and it was well with us, and we saw no evil.

Historians have discovered - a few artifacts showing besides among other things that the Israelis did give sacrifices to other gods - even queens of the gods - because their pagan neighbors did.
The Jews considered the 'One God' as the Almighty - but that the lesser gods existed too.
They also at one time believed God was married. [per artifacts]

What's interesting to note - that tho these gods and such didnt exist - the Roman letter states God wrote His laws in the pagans hearts. Now Jews were not to do this - for they had God's laws [but they were remiss on it because they thot He was Top God rather than only God]

What to do - without knowledge - when one knows someone has made them. This is why the Gentiles were not at fault for their practices... because God didnt make Himself literally known to them - only in His line of ppl to keep all things preserved for His coming.

However; pagans ironically hit the mark - knowing there was a God to serve. Some went too far and made Molech 'eat' children. That would be more demonic which was unpleasing to God.

Some say - Christians borrowed from the pagans. Yet philosophically - if we take a hard look at them - they too were prophetic. Yet they didnt know... they just knew - somehow. Since God wrote things in their hearts - so when the time came - they would convert to the truth.

Now Jeremiah was before Christ - so we know this has nothing to do with Our Lady in Heaven - but the pagans knew in their hearts - a position would exist. Tho they had not the law and truth - they still intuitively knew something.

If we step back from the black and white and see nuances - they too were prophetic - even if they failed in our eyes. But they didnt 'know' and why it says in Romans they were 'saved' because the laws of God were in their hearts.

I just thot this was of interest. Being we see they too sought thru unknown ways - the ways of God.

Jesus said His right hand was preserved...when the mother asked if her sons could fill the spot.
Yet Jesus is on the right hand of the Father - so a position did exist on His right hand as well.


But looking at Saints - in Heaven...for John is speaking of his vision regarding Heaven ...


Rev 5
[7] And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne. [8] And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints: [9] And they sung a new canticle, saying: Thou art worthy, O Lord, to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; because thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God, in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.



[8] The prayers of saints: Here we see that the saints in heaven offer up to Christ the prayers of the faithful upon earth.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Here is something to remember - which i believe we need to think about.
Saints in Heaven - whom John ws viewing - have every need met. They have everything and then some.
To pray is to speak and request... it is a form of requesting - what need do Saints in Heaven who have everything - have need to request?
Not for themselves - but for the Body of Christ on erth.

It says not - praising and worshiping God - but it says prayers. Putting it in the perspective as i did - we know they are not praying for themselves because they have no need... but for the love of humanity still on earth - they petition and request.

They are beseeching for us.

Just so we understand.

 

[sunlover1]

Philippians:
Salute every saint in Christ Jesus.
The brethren which are with me greet you.



the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:

Those are OUR prayers.
WE are those saints.

I'll explain why later when I get a chance.
Need to get ready for church.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Let us not put ourselves in the place of what John saw happening in heaven.
It's not about us on earth.
It was what John saw going on in Heaven...hence the angels surrounding the throne, and the 4 living creatures et al. I believe this confuses ppl otherwise when they are remiss of the description that this is going on in Heaven.

Revelation even states the saints shall judge the nations of earth with the Lord. They know what we do.

Also - to understand what incense is - we go back to the OT where it says incense was offered by the priests in the Temple because it was pleasing to God.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Will ttyl - have to run to Church and work after.
Have a safe day.