Weep Over Jerusalem?

[janxharris]

How about we stick with biblical arguments? Ones from emotion are just that.

So back to the text:

The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.

Is there anything in the text that suggests it HAS to mean every person who ever lived?

Rather, there is nothing to suggest that it means that his provision did not include all.

 

[Hammster]

Rather, there is nothing to suggest that it means that his provision did not include all.

Is there anything in the text to suggest that HAS to mean all sinners?

 

[crimsonleaf]

If the Bible of the Coke can saver consists of just a couple of sentences then I guess we can't be sure that every single can is meant.

Well let's try the Bible of the "every single man saver" then shall we?

You see, what gets me is that you'll happily tell me I'm inserting words into the text to fit my theology, then force the word "all" wherever you think it belongs. Further, you'll reduce any nuance in the text to fit a theology which makes Jesus a failure.

If Jesus really did come to save every man then He screwed up. He tried and tried but in the end we wouldn't let Him.

You'd never for a moment imagine that He's the same God who created the universe in the blink of an eye.

 

[Skala]

The grammar clearly means all. Jesus came to offer salvation for all.

It is palpably obvious that reformers are forced to twist these scriptures; that you cannot see this is astonishing.

To suggest that He came with no provision for some people is an awful assertion.

He said he lays down his life for the sheep.

Then he said to some people "you are not my sheep" in the exact same conversation.

Do you think Christ laid down his life for the people he said were not his sheep, even though he just said that he did it only for the sheep? Do you think He's a liar? Or a schizo?

Maybe you didn't study Christ's words enough? Read John 10.

 

[cygnusx1]

Rather, there is nothing to suggest that it means that his provision did not include all.

There is , or do you suppose the extent of the atonement differs from the prayers and intercession of Christ ?

Do you pray for every single person whomever lived to be saved , even though as I have shown , The Lord commanded no praying for certain people ?

Do you pray for those Jeremiah was commanded to forgo interceding for ?

 

[janxharris]

Well let's try the Bible of the "every single man saver" then shall we?

You see, what gets me is that you'll happily tell me I'm inserting words into the text to fit my theology, then force the word "all" wherever you think it belongs. Further, you'll reduce any nuance in the text to fit a theology which makes Jesus a failure.

If Jesus really did come to save every man then He screwed up. He tried and tried but in the end we wouldn't let Him.

You'd never for a moment imagine that He's the same God who created the universe in the blink of an eye.

Yes, it is true, Jesus wont save everyone even though that was his intention.

Was Job really tested when Satan was given power over him? Did Job himself continue to put his trust and faith in God? If God did it for him what was the point?

 

[cygnusx1]

Yes, it is true, Jesus wont save everyone even though that was his intention.

Was Job really tested when Satan was given power over him? Did Job himself continue to put his trust and faith in God? If God did it for him what was the point?

If it was Christs intention and it is not accomplished then that is a Christ who can fail , who will fail .

But "love never fails"

I believe Christ always obtains that which He prays for.

 

[janxharris]

There is , or do you suppose the extent of the atonement differs from the prayers and intercession of Christ ?

Do you pray for every single person whomever lived to be saved , even though as I have shown , The Lord commanded no praying for certain people ?

Do you pray for those Jeremiah was commanded to forgo interceding for ?

Christ prayed for those that were crucifying him. I would not pray for someone that God did not want me to pray for.

 

[cygnusx1]

Christ prayed for those that were crucifying him. I would not pray for someone that God did not want me to pray for.

Sure , he told us to also pray for our enemies , hardly includes men whom have been excluded from prayer .

 

[janxharris]

If it was Christs intention and it is not accomplished then that is a Christ who can fail , who will fail .

But "love never fails"

I believe Christ always obtains that which He prays for.

We have a part to play in this world.

I'm not sure that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit were in want of anything before creation and nor would they ever be.

I think your thought and words are noble but I don't really understand your concern.

 

[cygnusx1]

We have a part to play in this world.

I'm not sure that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit were in want of anything before creation and nor would they ever be.

I think your thought and words are noble but I don't really understand your concern.

We have a part to play , but it isn't writing the script , the script is already written we are merely players and portrayers upon this stage . The end is certain in all its detail , it's in the script.

 

[janxharris]

We have a part to play , but it isn't writing the script , the script is already written we are merely players and portrayers upon this stage . The end is certain in all its detail , it's in the script.

Limelight - Rush.......


Yes, the end is certain.

 

[jdbear]

crimsonleaf said,
If Jesus really did come to save every man then He screwed up. He tried and tried but in the end we wouldn't let Him.

(The OP)
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it! Behold, your house is left to you desolate; and I say to you, you will not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’” Lk.13:34-35
If you believe Jesus didn't want all to be saved, you're wrong, because He says right here He did want them to be saved. Saying "you would not have it" because it wasn't Gods desire is nonsense according to this text.

 

[Skala]

(The OP)
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it! Behold, your house is left to you desolate; and I say to you, you will not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’” Lk.13:34-35
If you believe Jesus didn't want all to be saved, you're wrong, because He says right here He did want them to be saved. Saying "you would not have it" because it wasn't Gods desire is nonsense according to this text.

Did you ever notice the people that were not willing is not the same group that Jesus wanted to gather?

It's amazing what happens when you give a flip about context.

 

[guuila]

Did you ever notice the people that were not willing is not the same group that Jesus wanted to gather?

It's amazing what happens when you give a flip about context.

 

[jdbear]

skala said,
Did you ever notice the people that were not willing is not the same group that Jesus wanted to gather?
It's amazing what happens when you give a flip about context.

Yes they are, otherwise, He wouldn't be weeping over them.

"...you will not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

When? Never?....or until they say Praise Jesus?

Same thing with your idea about Jesus only dying for His sheep. Did Jesus die for those who were already following God?

 

[janxharris]

He said he lays down his life for the sheep.

Then he said to some people "you are not my sheep" in the exact same conversation.

Do you think Christ laid down his life for the people he said were not his sheep, even though he just said that he did it only for the sheep? Do you think He's a liar? Or a schizo?

Maybe you didn't study Christ's words enough? Read John 10.

In verse 9 (of John 10):
'I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.'

Verse 16:
I have other sheep that are not of this pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice , and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.'

At the Hanukkah festival the Jews ask Jesus to tell them plainly if he is the Messiah and he tells them that they do not believe him because they are not his sheep. When Jesus claims that he and the Father are one they begin to stone him. What follows is curious, because Jesus continues to urge them to believe in him.

Verses 37,38
Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.

Were Jesus' words in vain? That he urges belief in him, even to those that want to kill him, says much about his intentions, desires and love. This incident shows that, 'whoever enters through me will be saved'.

Was it possible that some of those Jews that attempted to stone him, who were not his sheep, somehow repented of their wickedness and eventually entered through the sheep gate?

If he was not intending to lay his life down for them, why did he bother asking them to believe him?

 

[jdbear]

janxharris said,
Was it possible that some of those Jews that attempted to stone him, who were not his sheep, somehow repented of their wickedness and eventually entered through the sheep gate?

The non sheep repent of their wickedness the same way the sheep do, because the sheep are the former non sheep.

 

[janxharris]

Did you ever notice the people that were not willing is not the same group that Jesus wanted to gather?

It's amazing what happens when you give a flip about context.

Did Jesus want those that were not his sheep, the Jews that attempted to stone him in John 10, did he want to gather them when he said, 'Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.'

If He was not attempting to gather them, what was his intention?

 

[guuila]

Yes they are, otherwise, He wouldn't be weeping over them.

I'm sorry. Grammar trumps your invalid conclusion. Observe:

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!" (Matthew 23:37 ESV)

It does not say "and your children were not willing!" Jesus would have gathered their children, and they themselves were not willing. Two different groups. Nice try!

Oh, and by the way, it does not say anywhere that Jesus was weeping.