Jesus was not an Arminian

[RisingSpirit]

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Romes tries to have salvation-by-grace without faith alone. But it don't work !

Minus a gifted faith, then it ain't grace. It's something we merit.

Now, it's critical for understanding this that we're clear on one point:

We do not say that we're 'saved by faith'. The Reformation formula ...the Biblical formula... is that we're saved through faith.

"by grace you have been saved, through faith" (Ephesians 2:8 NASB, NIV, NKJ, ESV)

The Greek here is dia. "A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act" (Strong's).

Therefore, faith -even Saving Faith- does not save us. Christ saves us.

The Reformation doctrine being that Saving Faith is the instrumentality of salvation ...NOT what saves us.

Now, Ephesians 2:8 has BOTH the grace and the faith as "the gift of God" (NIV).

Whereas Romanists (like their semi-Pelagian brothers, the Arminians) claim only grace is. Faith in their soteric scheme is a work for which we derive merit.

Which brings us around to the Arminian view of faith as a decision...

If Saving Faith actually is a decision, then it incurs human merit. We deserve to be saved because of our good decision !

Where -if both faith and grace are gifts- then Saving Faith isn't a decision we make, and incurs us no merit.

 

[NorrinRadd]

No Arminian says we "deserve" anything. Calvinists CLAIM that we say this, but we don't.

Five articles of remonstrants states that man can cooperate in saving themselves due to a tiny little bit of spiritual good left in their souls. Calvinist claims there are nothing good left and can't cooperate without God first regenerating the elects.

1) Please quote the exact portions of the Remonstrances that demonstrate this alleged "tiny little bit of spiritual good."

2) Please show how this alleged "tiny little bit of spiritual good" exists apart from prevenient grace.

3) Please explain clearly how the ability to trust God and not resist His salvation equates to "deserving" that salvation.

 

[NorrinRadd]

...The arminians say they should deserve something cause theres something good inside them. ...

No Arminian says we "deserve" anything. Calvinists CLAIM that we say this, but we don't.

What do you think sin deserves then ?

Ice cream ?

Are you always this careless about context?

 

[cygnusx1]

Are you always this careless about context?

So you do agree with the concept all sinners deserve punishment ?

Therefore to escape our just deserts , ie , justice , we need mercy , and mercy is by nature free. (Unconditional)

 

[NorrinRadd]

So you do agree with the concept all sinners deserve punishment ?

Therefore to escape our just deserts , ie , justice , we need mercy,...

Yes.

and mercy is by nature free.

Yes.

(Unconditional)

Not necessarily.

 

[RisingSpirit]

1) Please quote the exact portions of the Remonstrances that demonstrate this alleged "tiny little bit of spiritual good."

2) Please show how this alleged "tiny little bit of spiritual good" exists apart from prevenient grace.

3) Please explain clearly how the ability to trust God and not resist His salvation equates to "deserving" that salvation.

​

FROM THE BELGIC CONFESSION

"So, then, we do good works. But not for merit ...for what would we merit ?

Rather we are indebted to God for the good works we do, and not He to us !" (BC; A-24).



Of course, Arminianism (like any semi-Pelagian religion) is about our works. They claim "grace", but it's Assisting Grace.

God helps us help ourselves.

But -by it's very definition- "grace" is a unmerited free gift. Arminianism takes away God's sovereignty in salvation and hands it off man !

Basically, then, there's three meanings of "Prevenient Grace"...

Reformed Theology that salvific grace exists before anything we do to earn -or choose- it.

Here it's sufficient in itself and irresistible.

Pelagianism, and Arminianism, where salvific grace is extended to everyone as an option ("Universal Prevenient Grace").

Here it depends upon our choice.

Romanism where it's a pre-existing assisting grace.

Here it depends upon our other works, and makes them effective in saving ourselves.

 

[NorrinRadd]

​

FROM THE BELGIC CONFESSION

"So, then, we do good works. But not for merit ...for what would we merit ?

Rather we are indebted to God for the good works we do, and not He to us !" (BC; A-24).



Of course, Arminianism (like any semi-Pelagian religion) is about our works. They claim "grace", but it's Assisting Grace.

God helps us help ourselves.

But -by it's very definition- "grace" is a unmerited free gift. Arminianism takes away God's sovereignty in salvation and hands it off man !

Basically, then, there's three meanings of "Prevenient Grace"...

Reformed Theology that salvific grace exists before anything we do to earn -or choose- it.

Here it's sufficient in itself and irresistible.

Pelagianism, and Arminianism, where salvific grace is extended to everyone as an option ("Universal Prevenient Grace").

Here it depends upon our choice.

Romanism where it's a pre-existing assisting grace.

Here it depends upon our other works, and makes them effective in saving ourselves.

Have you ever actually read anything by an Arminian, or dialogued with an Arminian? It surely does not seem so.

 

[travelah]

Joh 17:15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.

Arminians say that it is up to each person to stay away from evil. They say God would never actually effectually do something that results in one outcome over another. He must sit back (in order to be fair and just, of course) and not intervene or effectivelly bring about a result.

However here Jesus prays for God to actually do something effectual.

It is clear Jesus believed that God is sovereign over this affair, thus is able to pray God to effectually do something.

If Arminianism were true, Jesus would know better, and never ask God to do something that He knows God would not or could not do.

This is just one rather large strawman presentation.

 

[Skala]

This is just one rather large strawman presentation.

Is it consistent for Christ to pray for the Father to effectually do something, for Arminianism?

 

[travelah]

Is it consistent for Christ to pray for the Father to effectually do something, for Arminianism?

Of course, otherwise prayer is a needless nuisance. Not only for Christ but for us as well. However, we have a scriptural rebuttal to the counter argument.

Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Either these prayers do avail or they do not. There is no middle ground. Now, you might state the prayers are "in house" only but you would have to make a case for that position.

 

[Skala]

Of course, otherwise prayer is a needless nuisance. Not only for Christ but for us as well. However, we have a scriptural rebuttal to the counter argument.

Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Either these prayers do avail or they do not. There is no middle ground. Now, you might state the prayers are "in house" only but you would have to make a case for that position.

I dont think you understand my question. God effectually bringing something to pass means that God's will trumps human will.

Such a concept goes completely against synergism/Arminianism.

 

[travelah]

I dont think you understand my question. God effectually bringing something to pass means that God's will trumps human will.

Such a concept goes completely against synergism/Arminianism.

I understand it all too well, Effectual action does not mean that something is accomplished in opposition to the will. If grace enables one to believe, then efficacious action will be accomplished through willful response. Irresistible grace goes against Arminian doctrine rather than effecacious effect.

 

[Skala]

I understand it all too well, Effectual action does not mean that something is accomplished in opposition to the will. If grace enables one to believe, then efficacious action will be accomplished through willful response. Irresistible grace goes against Arminian doctrine rather than effecacious effect.

Efficacious effect is exactly what irresistible grace teaches.

God changes our hearts sot hat we are now willing to do what previously we were unwilling to do (believe the gospel, that is)

So to speak of praying and asking God "to save someone", this is what Calvinists are asking God to do.

Arminians,when praying the same prayer, are not being consistent with their own theology.

 

[NorrinRadd]

So to speak of praying and asking God "to save someone", this is what Calvinists are asking God to do.

Arminians,when praying the same prayer, are not being consistent with their own theology.

But since in Calvinist thought, God predetermines who will be saved, praying and asking Him to do anything is really irrelevant. He is going to do it anyway, so the prayer does not actually "do" anything. It just allows the pray-er to pretend he's participating along with God.

 

[Hammster]

But since in Calvinist thought, God predetermines who will be saved, praying and asking Him to do anything is really irrelevant. He is going to do it anyway, so the prayer does not actually "do" anything. It just allows the pray-er to pretend he's participating along with God.

It isn't irrelevant. Maybe you want to say that we are pretending. That's not exactly accurate, but it's sorta close. Biblically, it's more like "it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me".

And unless you are an open theist, you believe that all future events are set. So any prayer from the synergist side would just be pretending as well, since the events of time are set.

 

[gmm4j]

Efficacious effect is exactly what irresistible grace teaches.

God changes our hearts sot hat we are now willing to do what previously we were unwilling to do (believe the gospel, that is)

So to speak of praying and asking God "to save someone", this is what Calvinists are asking God to do.

Arminians,when praying the same prayer, are not being consistent with their own theology.

Sure we are. I believe God works upon the will of unregenerate man. However, I do not see where Scripture teaches that He does it through irresistible instantaneous regeneration against the person's will.

 

[travelah]

Efficacious effect is exactly what irresistible grace teaches.

God changes our hearts sot hat we are now willing to do what previously we were unwilling to do (believe the gospel, that is)

So to speak of praying and asking God "to save someone", this is what Calvinists are asking God to do.

Arminians,when praying the same prayer, are not being consistent with their own theology.

Efficacious means effective or having the power to be effective. Whether grace is resistible or not does not diminish the power or efficacy of that grace. Prevenient grace enables the soul to hear and respond. When Arminians and most Christians pray that the LORD save souls, we are asking that He work on them, that he bring them to the place where they might repent and trust in Him. Efficacious grace involves the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that being the power of God, the efficacious power of God to save souls. Efficacy does not mean irresistible.

 

[Hammster]

Efficacious means effective or having the power to be effective. Whether grace is resistible or not does not diminish the power or efficacy of that grace. Prevenient grace enables the soul to hear and respond. When Arminians and most Christians pray that the LORD save souls, we are asking that He work on them, that he bring them to the place where they might repent and trust in Him. Efficacious grace involves the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that being the power of God, the efficacious power of God to save souls. Efficacy does not mean irresistible.

So to be clear, you would argue against what some here call Total Ability, that man in and of himself can believe the gospel.

 

[cygnusx1]

So to be clear, you would argue against what some here call Total Ability, that man in and of himself can believe the gospel.

It's called modified pelagianism .

Just take everything wrong with pelagianism , disagree with it , then wave prevenient grace about a fair bit and hey presto , everything is back to pre-fall days , problem solved !

 

[RisingSpirit]

Hardcore atheists more firmly believe God exists than most
"Christians" ! Only due to that can the perpetually deny God.